46 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Both DAO and DA2 had those great tactics pages where we could set AI behaviour for each party member.  Any party member not currently controlled acted according to those settings.

And both DAO and DA2 let us control one or more party members at a time, so as to disable those tactical instructions for a time.  We could select three characters so only the fourth would follow his tactics settings.

But something missing from both games was the ability to deselect everyone and have tactics run the whole party.  By doing this, we could see how well our tactics worked in concert without any direct player input at all.  Moreover, I know BioWare actually did have this option available for at least one of the games during its development.  The developers could deselect everyone to see how the tactics worked by themselves.

I would really like DA3 to include the option to select and control any number of party members from 0-4.  Please let us deselect everyone.

[upsettingshorts]

I'd be on board with this.  Provided the tactic system is preserved or indeed enhanced, I don't see how it couldn't work.  Gameplay wise if it works for 3/4 characters at a time, it ought to work for 4/4.

Practically speaking it would mean different tactics, personally at least, as I built them around the idea that I'd be picking the targets and thus determining the kill order manually.  In such a setup I'd have to figure out a couple tactic steps to automatically burn down the targets in an optimal order.  That'd be a fun challenge.

As to whether or not they think it's an option worthy of active support, that's probably a different matter.  I'd definitely use the option.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 septembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[mesmerizedish]

/cosigned

I've got a bunch of things I'd like to see in an expanded tactics system. This is one of them.

[Mr.House]

Would be a nice option to have.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

As to whether or not they think it's an option worthy of active support, that's probably a different matter.  I'd definitely use the option.

I ask for it for two reasons.  First, I know BioWare has done it themselves as a part of testing, so it clearly wouldn't be too big a deal to leave it in the final product.

Second, I see it as a way to recreate what I think was an excellent combat system in the original Dungeon Siege, where the entire party would follow AI instructions whenever you hadn't given them instructions.

[naughty99]

Sounds like a useful option for anyone who uses tactics.

In my case, however, I played both DA:O and DA2 with all tactics disabled and micromanaged every single action by every party member, constantly pausing. I imagine I will handle combat in DA3 in exactly the same way.

Modifié par naughty99, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[Nimpe]

Ah, yes. I want this too. From what I remember it was in Final Fantasy XII, so it can't be that hard to implement. (And so were bowstrings cough cough)

[Sylvius the Mad]

naughty99 wrote...

Sounds like a useful option for anyone who uses tactics.

In my case, however, I played both DA:O and DA2 with all tactics disabled and micromanaged every single action by every party member, constantly pausing. I imagine I will handle combat in DA3 in exactly the same way.

When I feel the need to intervene, I intervene similarly and control everyone's every action.

But when I don't need to intervene, the need to give any instructions at all - particularly when I've already designed all of the tactics - seems superfluous.  If an encounter is simple enough that I don't need to control everyone, why am I forced to control anyone?

[mousestalker]

Lightning is about to strike as I agree with Sylvius. That would be a lovely feature.

[Fast Jimmy]

My biggest complaint about tactics is potions. Why, in the name of everything holy, is it required that I have to set up a Custom set of Tactics, that I have to update manually on every character anytime I level up and get a new skill, just to have the tactic to drink a potion when the character is near death? If I have twenty health potions and fifty lyrium potions, why does my party let themselves die or just sit there attacking with normal attacks that do no damage because their mana has been depleted?

It completely invalidates the fact that there are templates for tactics such as healer or sword and shield when you can't take care of that most basic component of the game without having to go to a custom template.

Also, the fact that the tactics doesn't take into account Cross class Combos also makes setting these up without using the Custom screen is a headache.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

On topic, if they cleaned up the tactics as I requested above, then I would totally be on board with this. My question is how does this look, visually, when you don't control anyone? Is it just a detached camera?

[upsettingshorts]

It seems to me your biggest complaint about tactics is that the preset ones are suboptimal.  Given that I've only ever used custom tactics, I'm not sure this is even a big deal.  Does any serious tactics user not customize their tactics?

That's not really on topic, though, is it?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

On topic, if they cleaned up the tactics as I requested above, then I would totally be on board with this. My question is how does this look, visually, when you don't control anyone? Is it just a detached camera?

Probly.  Or just follow the selected but not controlled party member.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:06 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

While I do hope they give us back the free-roaming camera in DA3, even without it the camera could simply stay focused on the last character selected.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't use custom tactics.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't use custom tactics.

On lower difficulties it wouldn't matter that it wasn't optimal, and you could play very hands-off.  But beyond that I don't get it.  Furthermore I don't even get how it would be fun or an improvement if default tactics were so good that making your own would be pointless.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:13 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't use custom tactics.

As is, I don't either. The tactics templates are practically worthless. If the enemies used tactics logic similar to them, the game would be beyond effortless. 

Having a way to have the system more logically react when picking skills at each level up would be great. I don't mind setting up custom tactics at all, but having to adjust them again for every character at every level up is a hassle. If you just look at the fact that there are half a dozen companions and you usually go to Level 20 and it takes 2 minutes to configure each companion, that's 240 minutes, which is 4 hours. If I spend 4 hours of a 30 hour game configuring tactics, then that is a POOR tactics system. 

Tons of flexibility, but almost NO automation. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:32 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Granted, I didn't spend much time playing DA2 at higher difficulties because I didn't like the game enough to devote any effort to it, but I found the best way to set new tactics at each level-up was to revert to a standard set and then modify it.

[Realmzmaster]

I build off a standard set and modify to suit my purposes for each character. On level up I pick the new tactics I want to use and modify the custom setup. I also set potion taking to be the first steps in the chain so that those steps are check first. The same with any healer or rogues who can use Guardian Angel or decoy. You can also place a duplicate set of potion taking statements at the end of the chain of statements or middle if you so choose.
I agree with Sylvius the Mad's suggestion.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

This is, essentially, what I wind up doing. And it usually doesn't take long to put together for each companion, around 100 - 140 seconds (right around two minutes) for each level up. But that is a huge time investment if you have to do it on every companion after every level up.

Just a little more intuition in modifying the tactics system is what Im asking for. It's one thing to put the best tactics on a platter for the player, its another entirely to give a focus of the type of fighter you want the character to be and for the tactics screen to keep that in mind when the designated skills are chosen. If I have a primarily arched character, but pick a dual wielding skill, the system should assume I would want to use it if an enemy came in close proximity of my primarily archer character.

Little steps of logic like this would be helpful, so my characters can stay alive when I'm in control of another character (trying to keep THEM alive). Relying on the playe to manage all of this kind of defeats the purpose of the Tactics system.

[Biotic Sage]

The tactics are what sets this game apart from others. It's a brilliant system. Obviously the game isn't God of War or Ninja Gaiden; it doesn't rely on the player's twitch skills in combat. I really like those games, and they have their place, but Dragon Age is first and foremost a strategy/thinking game. While I like being able to tactically make battle decisions as the battle progresses, I think the most rewarding part about the combat system is the tactics. I play DA:O and DA:2 in such a way that, if I set up my tactics effectively, I won't hardly NEED to intervene in the midst of battle. I have my party set up to be adaptable and to handle any situation. The tweaks I'm making are in between battles. When I see that the last battle did not go as ideally as I had hoped, I modify the tactics to compensate for what went wrong.

Since tactics are such a huge part of the gameplay, this is why there needs to be a more in depth character build / loot / customization system than in DA:O (and especially DA2). The rewarding part of the game is preparing your party for battle. Tactics is a great way to do this, but when you're able to do so with interesting item combinations and skill combinations as well, the possibilities and strategies truly become virtually limitless.  If they have a really great loot/skill system, then having a completely "hands off" option for the player during battles could very likely be my preferred style of play.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

I like this idea! I doubt I would use it often on my mages, because no matter how often I point at people and scream lightning they are never hit by a bolt of it. I like casting my spells with my mages. But for my rogues and warriors, I think this would great.

[Iosev]

Are we talking about something similar to Final Fantasy XII, where you could individually turn each character's gambits on or off, and thus leave the entire party automated (with each character, including the one you're currently "controlling", running solely off of their gambits)? If that's the case, then I don't see any problem with putting this feature in, although I personally would probably not use it, since I play on Nightmare.

Modifié par arcelonious, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[MichaelStuart]

I wouldn't use it (as I can't trust the game to do anything), but I support having the option.

[AntiChri5]

You know, i was just thinking of making this thread myself.

After i have played a game enough to have thoroughly mastered the combat, i usually put it back to easy so it won't get in the way of enjoying the story. Unless, of course, the combat is unusually excellent.

With the ability to enable tactics on all characters, i wouldn't have to do that. Just set up the tactics and enjoy the story. Every time a fight starts i can just sit back and relax.

[schalafi]

AntiChri5 wrote...

You know, i was just thinking of making this thread myself.

After i have played a game enough to have thoroughly mastered the combat, i usually put it back to easy so it won't get in the way of enjoying the story. Unless, of course, the combat is unusually excellent.

With the ability to enable tactics on all characters, i wouldn't have to do that. Just set up the tactics and enjoy the story. Every time a fight starts i can just sit back and relax.

But wouldn't that pretty much take the rp out of the rpg? If the fighting is like watching a cut scene, or movie, where is the involvement of the player?