46 réponses à ce sujet

[hexaligned]

I prefer to micromanage, but I could get behind this if they expanded the current system a bit on top of it. Along the lines of being able to save team wide tactics setups as "formations" and being able to switch between them on the fly in combat.
For example "formation A" would be designed around single target focus firing, "formation B" would be designed around splitting off into two groups, "formation C" would be designed around buffing/defuffing/healing, ect. The key is tieing it into the UI, so that you can quickly switch between them as a battle goes on/evolves.

[RazorrX]

isn't that like putting combat on autoplay? IF I am understanding correctly, you want all 4 members of the party to default to AI in combat based on your tactics right?

Where is that different from Autodialog? I mean you could tell the game in a RP Tactics I guess to go snarky 20% funny 30% and Irritated 50% and be done with it.

IMO I think the player should never be totally out of the picture either for combat or dialog.

[Realmzmaster]

RazorrX wrote...

isn't that like putting combat on autoplay? IF I am understanding correctly, you want all 4 members of the party to default to AI in combat based on your tactics right?

Where is that different from Autodialog? I mean you could tell the game in a RP Tactics I guess to go snarky 20% funny 30% and Irritated 50% and be done with it.

IMO I think the player should never be totally out of the picture either for combat or dialog.

The idea behind it is that the gamer can check to see how well each character's tactics script works. Something you cannot do if you are controlling one of the characters. If you can put them all to autoplay the tactics you have set you can see how well the script works especially if you are making custom tactics scripts. You can then adjust the script to work better. You can then go back to controlling whatever character you want once satisified with each character's tactics..

[Sylvius the Mad]

arcelonious wrote...

Are we talking about something similar to Final Fantasy XII, where you could individually turn each character's gambits on or off, and thus leave the entire party automated (with each character, including the one you're currently "controlling", running solely off of their gambits)?

Yes.  I've not played FF12, but I have heard this system described before, and that sounds right.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RazorrX wrote...

isn't that like putting combat on autoplay? IF I am understanding correctly, you want all 4 members of the party to default to AI in combat based on your tactics right?

Where is that different from Autodialog?

I doubt anyone would have objected to Autodialogue had it been optional.

I mean you could tell the game in a RP Tactics I guess to go snarky 20% funny 30% and Irritated 50% and be done with it.

I'd want considerably finer control than that, and that's why I doubt any autodialogue system would satisfy me.

IMO I think the player should never be totally out of the picture either for combat or dialog.

I think each player should be able to play the game however he likes.

[superwarrior]

YES!! I was thinking of coming up with exactly the same request but thanks for coming up with it first Sylvius. For those who don't know, i used Advanced Tactics and Custom Number of Tactics mod from the Nexus for DAO and one of them ( can't remember which; been a while ) allowed exactly just that!

How i played is this (for DAO):-
DAO allowed up to 3 sets of tactics and AI per character. I set 1 set for close melee, 1 for range combat and 1 for boss encounters. So i only have to make minute adjustments in combat situations and then only in the most dire situations i.e. poor planning/tactics. My squad just go into combat each knowing exactly what they have to do. Advanced Tactics mod, i believe, it allowed an on-the-fly toggle on/off auto-execute tactics for the PC character! You only interfere in emergencies when you need to! I spent hours just setting up my tactics alone and it was bags of fun to see a plan come together in combat real-time!

I used Custom Number of Tactics mod to increase my tactics slot up to 50 ( though i only used between 20-30 on average per character) as i've always felt that even DAO and it's Cuning increment of tactics slots was too little to execute a fun battle plan. DA2 took away the extra custom tactics and had even less tactic commands! The mods even allow auto position of backstab for rogue classes!

Now some posters are saying where's the fun in that, no real input? No, DAO was never meant to be a real-time action game and DA2 tried poorly to be a pseudo one. The fun ( i suspect for others similar to me but certainly for me) is in putting together a well planned combat strategy and letting them fly when combat arises. I dislike pause n play ( now don't get upset ppl, not asking for it to be taken away, it'll always be there for those who want it ) because pausing and micromanaging took the immersion and flow completely away from me. Full automated combat tactics like the mods allowed me to play the general not to mention allow me to programme behaviours to what i think befits that character. So many fun times when Morrigan pulled out a last minute spell cast that saved my warriors and then chaged into a bear all by herself when someone physically attacks her.

So yes, please Bioware, implement this simple feature (mods have done it) and please more tactics options and slots as even DAO was inadequate.

Cheers.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

This is, essentially, what I wind up doing. And it usually doesn't take long to put together for each companion, around 100 - 140 seconds (right around two minutes) for each level up. But that is a huge time investment if you have to do it on every companion after every level up.

Just a little more intuition in modifying the tactics system is what Im asking for. It's one thing to put the best tactics on a platter for the player, its another entirely to give a focus of the type of fighter you want the character to be and for the tactics screen to keep that in mind when the designated skills are chosen. If I have a primarily arched character, but pick a dual wielding skill, the system should assume I would want to use it if an enemy came in close proximity of my primarily archer character.

Little steps of logic like this would be helpful, so my characters can stay alive when I'm in control of another character (trying to keep THEM alive). Relying on the playe to manage all of this kind of defeats the purpose of the Tactics system.

The purpose of a custom tactics script is that it overrides anything standard. What can be done is to have two custom  scripts depending on whether or not the enemy is within melee range. If so a statement in the ranged script would tell the rogue to switch to the dual wielded script for that character. The dual wielded script can specify the abilities to be used and weapons. Once the enemy is out melee range the dual wielded script has a statement switching back to the ranged script which specifies which bow or crossbow to use.

Of course now you have the problem of maintaining two scripts. 

[Nomen Mendax]

RazorrX wrote...

isn't that like putting combat on autoplay? IF I am understanding correctly, you want all 4 members of the party to default to AI in combat based on your tactics right?

Where is that different from Autodialog? I mean you could tell the game in a RP Tactics I guess to go snarky 20% funny 30% and Irritated 50% and be done with it.

IMO I think the player should never be totally out of the picture either for combat or dialog.

When you say the player do you mean that's what you feel when you are playing (in which case I support you playing how you want to) or do you mean all players (in which case I suggest you let other people make up their own minds about how they want to play the game).

In any case if you've carefully designed all of the tactics you are involved, its just that you've pre-designed how the characters are going to behave.

[superwarrior]

Also, to further the previoius point, I'd like to see options to aloow AI to be switched under conditions. For example ( say AI weas on Aggressive, so i'd like let's say If Health lower than 25% then switch to AI to Defensive so they don't go chasing enemies all over on low health.

Also , a Defend Companion option would be nice so say Morrigan (mage; hence weak) is in trouble hence If Morrigan is under melee attack or health below 25% then attack her attacker ( say for Sten or the Dog ). Something like that. Right now I need quite a few tactic slots just to set up something close to that.

[superwarrior]

Wonder if any of BW staff can comment on current ideas for the combat system? Or if this thread's request can at least be taken into consideration?

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

This is, essentially, what I wind up doing. And it usually doesn't take long to put together for each companion, around 100 - 140 seconds (right around two minutes) for each level up. But that is a huge time investment if you have to do it on every companion after every level up.

Just a little more intuition in modifying the tactics system is what Im asking for. It's one thing to put the best tactics on a platter for the player, its another entirely to give a focus of the type of fighter you want the character to be and for the tactics screen to keep that in mind when the designated skills are chosen. If I have a primarily arched character, but pick a dual wielding skill, the system should assume I would want to use it if an enemy came in close proximity of my primarily archer character.

Little steps of logic like this would be helpful, so my characters can stay alive when I'm in control of another character (trying to keep THEM alive). Relying on the playe to manage all of this kind of defeats the purpose of the Tactics system.

The purpose of a custom tactics script is that it overrides anything standard. What can be done is to have two custom  scripts depending on whether or not the enemy is within melee range. If so a statement in the ranged script would tell the rogue to switch to the dual wielded script for that character. The dual wielded script can specify the abilities to be used and weapons. Once the enemy is out melee range the dual wielded script has a statement switching back to the ranged script which specifies which bow or crossbow to use.

Of course now you have the problem of maintaining two scripts. 

I think you are missing the point of what I am saying, possibly. 

I know how to manage the Tactics system and screen quite well. I enjoy getting in the nuts and bolts and tweaking things. And I would be totally on board with Sylvius' suggestion of turning all tactics on and watching the battle, only interfering when something is gone amiss (as I get bored when there is a lull in combat where abilities are on cooldown and everyone is just auto attacking).

But the tactics MAINTENANCE is a pain. Its like software coding where any time you add a new line of code, you have to go back and tweak every script you have running. I'd rather take the Archer script, modify it, but have the game recognize it as a modded Archer script. So that if a new skill is selected, it would update my custom tactics build just as it would if I still had the Archer template on the entire time. If I wanted to modify what the game set up in my Archer template, then I could. But chances are the script it would auto-select for me would be in the ballpark, which would only require a mild-tweaking in most cases, or I may even leave the script as is.

I guess what I am really requesting is something between All-Template or All-Customs. A Template-Custom hybrid, if you will.

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

This is, essentially, what I wind up doing. And it usually doesn't take long to put together for each companion, around 100 - 140 seconds (right around two minutes) for each level up. But that is a huge time investment if you have to do it on every companion after every level up.

Just a little more intuition in modifying the tactics system is what Im asking for. It's one thing to put the best tactics on a platter for the player, its another entirely to give a focus of the type of fighter you want the character to be and for the tactics screen to keep that in mind when the designated skills are chosen. If I have a primarily arched character, but pick a dual wielding skill, the system should assume I would want to use it if an enemy came in close proximity of my primarily archer character.

Little steps of logic like this would be helpful, so my characters can stay alive when I'm in control of another character (trying to keep THEM alive). Relying on the playe to manage all of this kind of defeats the purpose of the Tactics system.

The purpose of a custom tactics script is that it overrides anything standard. What can be done is to have two custom  scripts depending on whether or not the enemy is within melee range. If so a statement in the ranged script would tell the rogue to switch to the dual wielded script for that character. The dual wielded script can specify the abilities to be used and weapons. Once the enemy is out melee range the dual wielded script has a statement switching back to the ranged script which specifies which bow or crossbow to use.

Of course now you have the problem of maintaining two scripts. 

I think you are missing the point of what I am saying, possibly. 

I know how to manage the Tactics system and screen quite well. I enjoy getting in the nuts and bolts and tweaking things. And I would be totally on board with Sylvius' suggestion of turning all tactics on and watching the battle, only interfering when something is gone amiss (as I get bored when there is a lull in combat where abilities are on cooldown and everyone is just auto attacking).

But the tactics MAINTENANCE is a pain. Its like software coding where any time you add a new line of code, you have to go back and tweak every script you have running. I'd rather take the Archer script, modify it, but have the game recognize it as a modded Archer script. So that if a new skill is selected, it would update my custom tactics build just as it would if I still had the Archer template on the entire time. If I wanted to modify what the game set up in my Archer template, then I could. But chances are the script it would auto-select for me would be in the ballpark, which would only require a mild-tweaking in most cases, or I may even leave the script as is.

I guess what I am really requesting is something between All-Template or All-Customs. A Template-Custom hybrid, if you will.

I understand what you are asking the problem is that the way the system is setup the minute you modifiy the script  and save the changes the system sees it as a custom script because it no longer a default template.

 The game would have to save the default say archer script with your changes under the same name with a different extension to effectively be able to use it as you wish, making sure it does not change the default template for the game. 

 The system would then have to scroll down your modified list comparing it to the original default template by file name to see which abilities you have not already assign in a particular given situation. 

It becomes a lot more involved than just simply copying off or uncovering parts of the default archer script when you pick new abilities for the PC or companion.  You would still have to modify the script if you want to include duplicate statements or wish to shift statements around. The modified scripts would be contained in the save games which is the way I believe Bioware does it. That way the default scripts which serve as templates are untouched.

I think it would be possible but I do not know the capabilities of the Frostbite 2 engine and what kind of modifications Bioware may have to do to achieve it. But since they are making modifications anyway why not suggest it.

[Icinix]

Signed.

I would love to see this.

I've often said I love being able to play Dragon Age with the mouse in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other - during combat moments - the option to have a coffee in one hand and a banana in the other is just too good to pass up.

..truth be told - I've never really played Dragon Age for the combat either. Particularly through the low level crowds in some sections - being able to sit back and fine tune tactics so you only need to intervene in larger more serious fights would be grand. Just grand.

[philippe willaume]

I much prefer to play the char but i would agree with the idea.

what i would really like to see is a more tactical set up for the team.
Phil

[Sejborg]

I would like this. Good idea.

[scootermcgaffin]

RazorrX wrote...

isn't that like putting combat on autoplay? IF I am understanding correctly, you want all 4 members of the party to default to AI in combat based on your tactics right?

Where is that different from Autodialog? I mean you could tell the game in a RP Tactics I guess to go snarky 20% funny 30% and Irritated 50% and be done with it.

IMO I think the player should never be totally out of the picture either for combat or dialog.

Except "the player" wouldn't be completely out of the combat. For one, he or she would still be setting up all these tactics. Figuring out the best way for the party to fight as a team, etc. And he or she can always override the tactics in the middle of a battle to issue commands.

[Foolsfolly]

Realmzmaster wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

isn't that like putting combat on autoplay? IF I am understanding correctly, you want all 4 members of the party to default to AI in combat based on your tactics right?

Where is that different from Autodialog? I mean you could tell the game in a RP Tactics I guess to go snarky 20% funny 30% and Irritated 50% and be done with it.

IMO I think the player should never be totally out of the picture either for combat or dialog.

The idea behind it is that the gamer can check to see how well each character's tactics script works. Something you cannot do if you are controlling one of the characters. If you can put them all to autoplay the tactics you have set you can see how well the script works especially if you are making custom tactics scripts. You can then adjust the script to work better. You can then go back to controlling whatever character you want once satisified with each character's tactics..

I'm not really against this idea. I can kinda support it as an option in a menu somewhere behind the subtitles but...

The idea behind it is that the gamer can check to see how well each character's tactics script works.

Mass Effect 3 finally gave us a shooting range to test out new weapons. What about a tourney yard or something where you can test out skills and tactics against strawmen? Or Shades. Or combat illusions. Or trainers in immorality armor (if you want to go mundane with it).

You get to see your tactics and abilities used, learn CCC's, and the like all without the chance of dying or gaining XP. Since it's just about being informative.

[Meltemph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Both DAO and DA2 had those great tactics pages where we could set AI behaviour for each party member.  Any party member not currently controlled acted according to those settings.

And both DAO and DA2 let us control one or more party members at a time, so as to disable those tactical instructions for a time.  We could select three characters so only the fourth would follow his tactics settings.

But something missing from both games was the ability to deselect everyone and have tactics run the whole party.  By doing this, we could see how well our tactics worked in concert without any direct player input at all.  Moreover, I know BioWare actually did have this option available for at least one of the games during its development.  The developers could deselect everyone to see how the tactics worked by themselves.

I would really like DA3 to include the option to select and control any number of party members from 0-4.  Please let us deselect everyone.

That would be great, but imo, BW would have to really notch-up the AI in teh game to truely do this, imo.  Ogre Battle is one of my favorite games of all time, and the gameplay where you chose the tactics and not the actions, was something that was always intrinsictly important to me.  Not sure how I would look at it with a more "personal" game like this, but might help in regards to gameplay.

[Xerxes52]

Sign me up. Setting up the tactics for my party and seeing how they play out is one of the most interesting parts of the game imo.

[superwarrior]

Bumping for fan support.