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[liggy002]

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.

Modifié par liggy002, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 If anything, it would be more logical of them to sabotage Destroy, leaving Control the only viable function.

[liggy002]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 If anything, it would be more logical of them to sabotage Destroy, leaving Control the only viable function.

Not necessarily, it makes the Catalyst look more genuine if he leaves the Destroy option open.  We have the illusion of choice.  Maybe it was a risk the Reapers were willing to take.

[His Name was HYR!!]

liggy002 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 If anything, it would be more logical of them to sabotage Destroy, leaving Control the only viable function.

Not necessarily, it makes the Catalyst look more genuine if he leaves the Destroy option open.  We have the illusion of choice.  Maybe it was a risk the Reapers were willing to take.

Look more genuine? He was genuine. It did exactly what he said it would do.

I love the whole "illusion of honesty" nonsense about the catalyst. It's a BSN clllllllassic! 

[liggy002]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 If anything, it would be more logical of them to sabotage Destroy, leaving Control the only viable function.

Not necessarily, it makes the Catalyst look more genuine if he leaves the Destroy option open.  We have the illusion of choice.  Maybe it was a risk the Reapers were willing to take.

Look more genuine? He was genuine. It did exactly what he said it would do.

I love the whole "illusion of honesty" nonsense about the catalyst. It's a BSN clllllllassic! 

Did you even read this post... I just said that people who wanted to implement Control into the Crucible were indoctrinated or are you just ignoring facts?

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 If anything, it would be more logical of them to sabotage Destroy, leaving Control Synthesis the only viable function.

Fixed.

[His Name was HYR!!]

liggy002 wrote...


Did you even read this post... I just said that people who wanted to implement Control into the Crucible were indoctrinated or are you just ignoring facts?

'Skimmed through it. I'm talking about the flawed premise behind them implementing Control whilst not sabotaging the main purpose of the device: Destroy. That is, if the catalyst even wants Control in the first place (I don't buy it).

[Demon560]

So indoctrinated agents fought against those that wanted to use it to destroy it, you can interpreted as those who build it, and those who knew about, if you are relating it to Cerberus it would be the latter, since they did not help in building the Crucible, but were aware of it and thought it could be used to control the reapers, it could be either or, but if what your saying is true, why let destroy be included as an option within the crucible.

[liggy002]

Demon560 wrote...

So indoctrinated agents fought against those that wanted to use it to destroy it, you can interpreted as those who build it, and those who knew about, if you are relating it to Cerberus it would be the latter, since they did not help in building the Crucible, but were aware of it and thought it could be used to control the reapers, it could be either or, but if what your saying is true, why let destroy be included as an option within the crucible.

Because the Catalyst knows that Shepard and his friends want to destroy the Reapers.  If he only presented Control as an option, then Shepard would never choose Control.  It would be highly suspect.  It is a very elaborately designed trap.  Or, quite possibly for some other reason.

Modifié par liggy002, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:16 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

liggy002 wrote...


Because the Catalyst knows that Shepard and his friends want to destroy the Reapers.  If he only presented Control as an option, then Shepard would never choose Control.  It would be highly suspect.  It is a very elaborately designed trap.  Or, quite possibly for some other reason.

That's exactly why it's ridiculous. They choose not to make their trap fool-proof (you know, like an actual trap) and give themself a 100% of success over some stupid/uncalculated gamble.

This is from an enemy that used the Citadel as a trap at the start of every cycle even though they cannot be beaten conventionally - to make the odds even more lopsided in their favor.


This is also a gaping hole in Indoctrination Theory's explanation of the ending.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[AlanC9]

This is really feeble.

[MegaSovereign]

The way these indoctrinated factions sought out to control the Reapers is to study indoctrination and find a way to acquire that power.

The Control functionality at the end of the game seems to create a new intelligence based on the user's morals at the cost of his life; no indoctrination signals involved between the transaction.

The means to control isn't quite the same as TIM had planned.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:26 .

[AlanC9]

liggy002 wrote...

Because the Catalyst knows that Shepard and his friends want to destroy the Reapers.  If he only presented Control as an option, then Shepard would never choose Control.  It would be highly suspect.  It is a very elaborately designed trap.  Or, quite possibly for some other reason.

I'll bite. Why not sabotage Destroy and then tell Shepard that Control is Destroy?

[Constant Motion]

http://en.wikipedia....erial_fallacies

"People believed the reapers could be controlled. These people were indoctrinated. Therefore, all peple who believe the reapers could be controlled are indoctrinated."

Logical fallacies, incidentally, are half of the reason the reapers behave the way they do. They made a generalisation. They were wrong. Now, they need a new solution.

We've seen the outcome. It's in the game. We know, for a fact, that it isn't a trap. Let go!

[MegaSovereign]

Constant Motion wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....erial_fallacies

"People believed the reapers could be controlled. These people were indoctrinated. Therefore, all peple who believe the reapers could be controlled are indoctrinated."

Logical fallacies, incidentally, are half of the reason the reapers behave the way they do. They made a generalisation. They were wrong. Now, they need a new solution.

We've seen the outcome. It's in the game. We know, for a fact, that it isn't a trap. Let go!

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated!

[Toxic Waste]

I don't buy destroy being left in just to make control look better. With countless cylcles over millions of years someone was bound to hit the destroy button somewhere down the line. And I can't believe the Reapers would leave it there just to make someone choose control or synthisis.
Makes no scence to me.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Literally everyone in the ME universe who ever thought he could control the reapers, ended up being indoctrinated. Yes, even the Protheans fell because of an indoctrinated faction who believed they could control the Reapers.

I don't understand how anyone can go through that conversation with TIM at the end, where you convince him he's indoctrinated for thinking he can control the Reapers, then 5 minutes later go ahead and pick control because the freaking Reaper AI tells them it's okay.

Could it be any more suspicious?

It baffles my mind. It's so obviously a trap.

An AI that, if you refuse to choose, drops his innocent guise for a moment and yells at you in a Reaper voice. It's obvious he's actually something very different, and he's just posing as this innocent kid.

Just assume for a moment, that instead of the kid, you're talking to a Harbinger holo. Would you still take his word for it and pick control?

[His Name was HYR!!]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Literally everyone in the ME universe who ever thought he could control the reapers, ended up being indoctrinated. Yes, even the Protheans fell because of an indoctrinated faction who believed they could control the Reapers.

A sample size of two is hardly damning.

I don't understand how anyone can go through that conversation with TIM at the end, where you convince him he's indoctrinated for thinking he can control the Reapers, then 5 minutes later go ahead and pick control because the freaking Reaper AI tells them it's okay.

He's not indoctrinated for thinking he can control them. He's indoctrinated from implanting himself with Reaper tech.

I'm not convinced he was even indoctrinated until after Sanctuary. The Reapers found it and took it out because they picked up on the signal and then found that it was a threat to be dealt with. If TIM was indoctrinated, they'd have known both of those things much sooner, from the conversations he had been having with Mr. Lawson.

An AI that, if you refuse to choose, drops his innocent guise for a moment and yells at you in a Reaper voice.

He's mad because you're acting illogically. Any one of the Crucible's function is a better solution than his, so you not choosing it and forcing him to keep harvesting will get a negative AI response.

Just assume for a moment, that instead of the kid, you're talking to a Harbinger holo. Would you still take his word for it and pick control?

No, but that's not who we're talking to, nor is it anything similar to that. So let's not tilt at straw windmills.

[DoomsdayDevice]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

No, but that's not who we're talking to, nor is it anything similar to that. So let's not tilt at straw windmills.

Ah, but what is it then, that makes the difference between the leader of the Reapers and the AI that controls them?

Seriously, why trust one and not the other?

The Leviathans have a mind control power that uses your memories to let you see things that are not there. The Leviathan explains to you that every Reaper has this power to influence organics, and they have perfected it over time to indoctrination. In other words: the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can, but they have perfected the art.

This makes it possible for the ending to be an illusion, and for the kid to actually be Harbinger (the Reaper that was harvested from Leviathans, no less!)

Have you considered that the sound effect that plays during the conversation with TIM on the Citadel, is actually a Reaper horn when you play it at double speed? Explain that. (If you don't know what I mean, check the link in my signature)

HYR 2.0 wrote...

He's not indoctrinated for thinking he can control them. He's indoctrinated from implanting himself with Reaper tech.

Actually, Shepard doesn't even mention TIM's implants. Renegade or paragon, the argument you use to convince him he's indoctrinated is that he can't be sure they will actually let him control them. He thinks he knows he can, but Shep convinces him otherwise.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[KevShep]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

liggy002 wrote...


Because the Catalyst knows that Shepard and his friends want to destroy the Reapers.  If he only presented Control as an option, then Shepard would never choose Control.  It would be highly suspect.  It is a very elaborately designed trap.  Or, quite possibly for some other reason.

That's exactly why it's ridiculous. They choose not to make their trap fool-proof (you know, like an actual trap) and give themself a 100% of success over some stupid/uncalculated gamble.

This is from an enemy that used the Citadel as a trap at the start of every cycle even though they cannot be beaten conventionally - to make the odds even more lopsided in their favor.


This is also a gaping hole in Indoctrination Theory's explanation of the ending.

Indoctrination is ALL about choice.

You have to be tricked into "giving into" there "suggestions". If you were aware of there presents in your mind then resisting indoctrination is possible which then leaves the reapers with there only option that is called "direct control" like they did with Paul Grayson.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[AlanC9]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Just assume for a moment, that instead of the kid, you're talking to a Harbinger holo. Would you still take his word for it and pick control?

Would you stil take his word for it and pick Destroy?

[Toxic Waste]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Seriously, why trust one and not the other?

Personaly I find that being forced to trust the reaper, regardless what for it takes, is just insulting.

[His Name was HYR!!]

KevShep wrote...

Indoctrination is ALL about choice.

You have to be tricked into "giving into" there "suggestions". If you were aware of there presents in your mind then resisting indoctrination is possible which then leaves the reapers with there only option that is called "direct control" like they did with Paul Grayson.

This is not about indoctrination.

This is the premise of the Reapers going full-retard and not properly sabotaging the galaxy's only real shot at defeating them. They elect not to make this a fool-proof trap, but one with a possibility (a very high one) of doing them in.

Basically, handing the other side a weapon to defeat them.

[Sundance31us]

Sounds like the additional information provided by Leviathan isn't being considered here.

[DoomsdayDevice]

AlanC9 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Just assume for a moment, that instead of the kid, you're talking to a Harbinger holo. Would you still take his word for it and pick control?

Would you stil take his word for it and pick Destroy?

Yes, because it means that Shepard keeps fighting.

The reason people don't understand why destroy is still an option if it is a trap, is because they refuse to believe that it could all be happening in Shepard's mind.

IMO, all that happens when you pick destroy is, that you keep fighting the Reapers mentally, you resist the indoctrination, you do not go along with Reaper suggestions of control or synthesis. In refuse, you give up the fight, game over.

Leviathan establishes that it's a valid possibility. The Reapers can build visual illusions from your memories, and they can do it even better than the Leviathans, because they perfected the process.

Shepard isn't actually on the Citadel. The Crucible doesn't actually fire. All that happens when he picks destroy, is that he wakes up from the indoc attempt.

All the EC endings are illusions.

Consider the symbolism in the EC endings:

- In control/synthesis, the soldier fighting in the streets is losing the fight. A husk throws himself upon him, and he's about to die when the wave hits. Identical sequence for both endings.

- In destroy, the soldier takes down the husk. And more, and more, he doesn't stop fighting. The husks don't overcome him. They are closing in on him when he's still fighting and the wave hits.

It's called a subtle hint.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:32 .