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[Dean_the_Young]

CronicleChicken wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Destroy preserves all life in the galaxy and rids the galaxy of the reapers.

Control does all that as well, without a synthetic genocide.

The reapers have killed trillions of people, squashed down their bodies and turned them into mobile death machines. Listening to any suggestion from the reapers is foolish, especially when we've known for 3 games that one of their best weapons is manipulating people.

That's not their best weapon: indoctrination is.

Of course, you're also projecting something onto the Reapers that we learn they've never had: free will. Someone compelled to take an action, versus someone who does it on their own will, are two different contexts.

Leaving them alive is too big of a risk, living along side them is even worse. No one in the right mind would be able to live with the reapers after what they have down, how on earth can you even begin to trust them?

You aren't asking the Reapers to do what you want, you're forcing them.

Don't they deserve to be punished?

For being slaves to someone else? What would be the point?

The person ultimately responsible, the Catalyst, is removed.

I think that the Catalyst is a Reaper.

Why?

If the Catalyst is a Reaper and he presented the options to you in such a way to guide you to a particular choice. Suggestive reasoning. I think this is an indoctrination attempt like it was throughout the whole ME3 game.

There wasn't an indoctrination attempt throught the game.

Think about, if the Indoctrination Theory is true

It isn't.

What if the Reapers never killed us? What if Javik's Prothean Empire Reborn succeeded? What if what if what if?

We could talk about infinite imaginary worlds in which key things are different throughout the franchise. Or we can talk about what actually is true in the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because you don't have to argue that the idea of controlling the Reapers is a pipe dream, and because the Catalyst doesn't claim you're special.

No, you don't have to argue, you just blindly accept what the Catalyst tells you and decide TIM was right all along instead. 

Besides the questionable claim about blindly accepting what the Catalyst tells you, as opposed to using the Catalyst as a confirmation of what you can already believe, what does this have to do with that you never had to argue against TIM that controlling the Reapers was a pipe dream?

And the Catalyst DOES claim you're special - or should we ignore that entire line about Shepard being the first organic to ever reach this point?

And now you're taking statements out of context. You shouldn't lie simply because it's inconvenient.

The Catalyst never claims that Shepard can take Control because Shepard is Special. The Catalyst simply indicates that Indoctrinated people wouldn't be able to, because they were already controlled.

The Reapers are pretty obvious and honest with their intents and means. They use indoctrination, not subterfuge, to command obedience, and we've yet to get a lie worth the name. People delude themselves as to what the Reapers mean and intend.

They certainly do, don't they? And judging from this conversation, they're still doing it.

Don't worry, I've faith in you.

Oh please.  Now you're acting petulant.

I'm acting exasperated, as I tend to be with people who lie about things that were in the game and then retreat from the position with an irrelevant tangent the moment they're questioned about it.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...

No, you're missing the point. Shepard never showed any intent of wanting to control the Reapers, so just having the control option would have been highly suspicious.

Just having the destroy option wouldn't be suspicious at all, because that's what Shep always wanted, and it's what we expect the Crucible to do anyways. So if destroy was a trap, there would be no need to give the other two options.[/quote]...which is why you could just as well say that Destroy is being presented as a trap. Because it's seemingly what they don't want, what Shepard has apparently sought, and otherwise an obvious choice.

No matter how much you want Control to be a bluff, Destroy could be one too along similar reasonings: Shepard wants it, ergo it'd be better to sabotage it.



[quote]

And that means Shepard is in London.
lolar[/quote]When did wind disappear off of the Citadel? Or when were military vehicles removed from it? 

You still have yet to prove Shepard left the Citadel.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not a Reaper AI, and it's not even the origin of the option.[/quote]

The AI that controls the Reapers isn't affiliated with the Reapers, okay.[/quote]Amazingly enough, that's not what I said. Imagine that.


[quote]
Not the origin of the option? I would agree, because the option is fake. [/quote]Since it works, we can quite obviously disprove this.
[quote]
It can't be the crucible, because that's just a huge battery and a 'crude device', if you want to believe the 'catalyst'.[/quote]The Catalyst never claims either of those.

[quote]
So was it the Citadel? No, because, wasn't that built by the Reapers?[/quote]The Crucible is designed to use the Citadel. They interact.

This is given in the game.
[quote]
None of those crucible options are real.[/quote]All of the Crucible options are real. You just don't like them.

[quote]
It's all a battle in Shep's mind. Choosing destroy is simply representative of Shepard's will to fight, to resists the Reapers. All it does is wake him up. [/quote]Incorrect. The Reapers are defeated in all three Crucible options, as confirmed in the ending prompt, word of god, and supporting material. Destroy is simply the only one in which Shepard can live through.

[quote]
'Even before'? He was slowly being indoctrinated. How do you think he got those eyes? He got them after finding a Reaper artifact. One of the books even states he was indoctrinated.[/quote]*Citation needed.

The Illusive Man's entire origin comic was centered on that he was not the norm for people who encountered the artificat. He was always an outlier, and in both that and follow up material he was the instigator in defying direct Reaper intentions.
[quote]
On Mars he was already talking about bringing humanity to the 'apex of evolution', clearly indoctrinated talk. [/quote]How? More to the point, why are you ignorring the Cerberus station videos?


[quote]
And converting his own soldiers to husks?[/quote]We can clearly count ways in which Cerberus soldiers do not act or behave like husks.

[quote]Making 'improvements'  to them? No sign of indoc there, nosirree.[/quote]Using indoctrination isn't actually a sign of being indoctrination. You're resorting to an association fallacy.

[quote]
Oh and what a surprise, if you choose synthesis or control, you suddenly have indoctrinated Illusive Man eyes, right before you die. No subtle hint at all.[/quote]Except you always have the cybernetic eyes: Shepard gets them in ME2. They normally only show when Renegade.

[quote]
You need to realize that most of your arguments are what they are because you're taking the so-called catalyst's word for it.[/quote]Actually, I can take the results from the ending of the game to prove most of them, as well as writer and developer commentary.

[quote]
A being that clearly poses as something that doesn't seem threatening to you, by taking the guise of the innocent child back on Earth.[/quote]This is old technology: we saw subjective psychic technology in ME1, and the Leviathans do the same.

[quote]
And when you refuse to choose, he becomes mad and drops his guise for a second, to yell at you in a Reaper voice. No deception going on at all, there, nosirree.[/quote]Since the Catalyst does work in the fashions he claims, as attestable by the endings, you haven't actually demonstrated what he's supposedly concealing.

You can make an argument that you shouldn't trust the Catalyst, but you're actually making an argument that the ending is wrong in what it shows after the Catalyst. That's simply denial.
[quote]
The devil/demon posing as an innocent little creature is about the oldest trope in the book of deceptions. You should have alarm bells ringing all over the place.
[/quote]That assumes one perceives children as trustworthy sources of information.

[Humakt83]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The ****s used Guns.

We used Guns.

Therefore-

(Stupidity realized.)

This is the situation where Hitler (maybe not Hitler but someone who explains you how ****s are his solution) himself hands you a mysterious "device" to end the war.

"This button destroys all the ****s, but part of the allied forces are destroyed as well. It is not your countrymen though."

"By using this button you die but you shall control all the ****s, replacing me as their new leader. Hitler will be fine though."

"By leaping into that chasm, your body will be dissolved. Everything you are, shall be sent across the Earth. The resulting wave shall combine traits of both ****s and Allied forces. Creating totally new race, nazallies."

There is nothing about guns. Guns are simple.

Modifié par Humakt83, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:32 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When did wind disappear off of the Citadel? Or when were military vehicles removed from it?

Wind on a space station? Seriously?

Did we see military vehicles on the Citadel?

Or concrete, for that matter?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You still have yet to prove Shepard left the Citadel.

I'm saying Shep was never there to begin with.

The sound effect that plays in the EC when Shep zaps onto the Citadel, just so happens to be the exact same sound that is used in Leviathan when going in and out of the illusions. What a coincidence!

Besides, the arms of the Citadel are about 45 kilometer long. Judging by those measures, Shepard was at the heart of an explosion that was at least 10 kilometers in diameter, without a helmet, and without a functional armour.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Catalyst never claims either of those.

...yes, he does.

Child: "The device you refer to as the crucible is little more than a power source."
Child: "It is crude but effective, and adaptive in its design."

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Crucible is designed to use the Citadel. They interact. This is given in the game.

I know. I'm saying that the crucible options can't be part of the Citadel, because the Citadel was built by the Reapers. The child says the Crucible is little more than a power source. It doesn't make sense at all.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

More to the point, why are you ignorring the Cerberus station videos?

What about them? Yes, TIM got himself Reaper implants, just like Saren. Shows how far gone he was.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Using indoctrination isn't actually a sign of being indoctrination.

What in-game source do you have to back up this claim?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except you always have the cybernetic eyes: Shepard gets them in ME2. They normally only show when Renegade.

Except Shepard's renegade eyes are different. The three points are in a reversed position. Shep has two points on top, one at the bottom. The Illusive man has one at the top, two at the bottom. Yet in the ending sequences, Shep's are suddenly blue instead of red, and identical in position to TIM's.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This is old technology: we saw subjective psychic technology in ME1, and the Leviathans do the same.

This only reinforces my point.

And yes, the Leviathans do a lot of the same things. In fact, they create illusions from Shep's memories, and then tell you the Reapers have perfected that art.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since the Catalyst does work in the fashions he claims, as attestable by the endings, you haven't actually demonstrated what he's supposedly concealing.

Isn't it obvious? He's Harbinger. Inside your head. He's just posing as this poor little kid you saw.

A kid that probably wasn't even real to begin with.

It walks through a closed door. It survives a Reaper blast that cuts through the building. It doesn't act like an actual scared kid would, and disappears without a trace, with audible Reaper growls in the background.

Never mind the fact that he's constantly surrounded by warning signs (the one at the vent entrance being completely unique), and when Shep mentions the kid to Garrus, a warning sign appears from behind Shep's head at the exact moment he mentions the boy.

Would you place as much trust in him if you were talking to a Harbinger holo instead? Or if the kid was talking with that metallic Reaper voice all the time? Or if Harbinger told you that he is the intelligence that created the Reapers?

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[KevShep]

Dean_the_Young

You mean to tell me that the crucible or catalsyt is NOT some form of trap?

Every race has "added" to the crucible plans yet the many cycles know nothing of what it does? How can you add to a solution when you dont know the equation?

They build the crucible from top down, meaning that they started with that answer and developed the problem later. Proof of this is the fact that no one knew what the catalsyt was or did even thought ITS THE BIGGEST PART of the crucible hence the term "catalyst" ( define-a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. 2something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces (citadel/crucible)without itself being affected.)

How did they build the crucible without "FIRST" knowing what the catalyst is if the catalyst is the very thing that bridges the citable/crucible together and accelerate evolution(synthesis) or destroy?

On top of it all...When we do find out what the catalsyt is it just happends to be an AI that is controling the reapers themselves and JUST SO HAPPENDS to be in control of..." there"... solution itself reguarding stopping the chaos. I thgouht that the crucible was the design of the organics but it seems to be the reapers doing all along since our "catalyst" is the main enemy and happens to be the main element of the crucible/citadel design. indoctrinated agents also came up with the control function in the first place as per the prothean VI.

To me it looks like a possible trap.

Modifié par KevShep, 01 octobre 2012 - 02:36 .

[zambot]

...unless of course you saved the collector base and have low EMS. In that case, control is, in fact, the only solution presented by the catalyst.

[fil009]

There. Earth. I wish you could see it like I do Shepard. Its so... Perfect.

[DoomsdayDevice]

fil009 wrote...

There. Earth. I wish you could see it like I do Shepard. Its so... Perfect.

Yeah, looks like TIM isn't seeing what we are seeing. Kind of like he's having some kind of vision like the control ending in EC. He even says  "I saved humanity."

[liggy002]

zambot wrote...

...unless of course you saved the collector base and have low EMS. In that case, control is, in fact, the only solution presented by the catalyst.

No need to trick Shepard into control at that point because the Catalyst already knows that Shepard supports control.

[liggy002]

KevShep wrote...

Dean_the_Young

You mean to tell me that the crucible or catalsyt is NOT some form of trap?

Every race has "added" to the crucible plans yet the many cycles know nothing of what it does? How can you add to a solution when you dont know the equation?

They build the crucible from top down, meaning that they started with that answer and developed the problem later. Proof of this is the fact that no one knew what the catalsyt was or did even thought ITS THE BIGGEST PART of the crucible hence the term "catalyst" ( define-a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. 2something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces (citadel/crucible)without itself being affected.)

How did they build the crucible without "FIRST" knowing what the catalyst is if the catalyst is the very thing that bridges the citable/crucible together and accelerate evolution(synthesis) or destroy?

On top of it all...When we do find out what the catalsyt is it just happends to be an AI that is controling the reapers themselves and JUST SO HAPPENDS to be in control of..." there"... solution itself reguarding stopping the chaos. I thgouht that the crucible was the design of the organics but it seems to be the reapers doing all along since our "catalyst" is the main enemy and happens to be the main element of the crucible/citadel design. indoctrinated agents also came up with the control function in the first place as per the prothean VI.

To me it looks like a possible trap.

   Consider also that the Control option and NO OTHER OPTION only pops up if Shepard chooses Control at the Collector base.  Now why would that be?  Because it's all in his head!  The people who built the Crucible didn't just up and say "HEY LOOK!!  This guy named Shepard is going to choose Control at the Collector base millions of years from now!  So let's only add that solution onto the Crucible."

  The Reapers read Shepard's mind and that's why they knew to only include Control in the dream.  They knew that he was easier to indoctrinate.

[liggy002]

KevShep wrote...

Dean_the_Young

You mean to tell me that the crucible or catalsyt is NOT some form of trap?

Every race has "added" to the crucible plans yet the many cycles know nothing of what it does? How can you add to a solution when you dont know the equation?

They build the crucible from top down, meaning that they started with that answer and developed the problem later. Proof of this is the fact that no one knew what the catalsyt was or did even thought ITS THE BIGGEST PART of the crucible hence the term "catalyst" ( define-a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. 2something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces (citadel/crucible)without itself being affected.)

How did they build the crucible without "FIRST" knowing what the catalyst is if the catalyst is the very thing that bridges the citable/crucible together and accelerate evolution(synthesis) or destroy?

On top of it all...When we do find out what the catalsyt is it just happends to be an AI that is controling the reapers themselves and JUST SO HAPPENDS to be in control of..." there"... solution itself reguarding stopping the chaos. I thgouht that the crucible was the design of the organics but it seems to be the reapers doing all along since our "catalyst" is the main enemy and happens to be the main element of the crucible/citadel design. indoctrinated agents also came up with the control function in the first place as per the prothean VI.

To me it looks like a possible trap.

The key term being "WITHOUT ITSELF BEING AFFECTED" which means that its variables weren't altered contrary to popular belief.

[liggy002]

And what process is the Catalyst speeding up? Indoctrination.

[KevShep]

liggy002 wrote...

And what process is the Catalyst speeding up? Indoctrination.

The speed of evolution of synthesis in organics and synthetics.

[ghost9191]

eh simple. you lose emotion when you have your sshep go all dead and copy of self to be new catalyst. with out that emotion you just have that cold callous logic , the ai shep won't need the old catalyst, it would probably come to the whole only way to save everyone is to turn them into reapers way of thinking without it

[KevShep]

liggy002 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dean_the_Young

You mean to tell me that the crucible or catalsyt is NOT some form of trap?

Every race has "added" to the crucible plans yet the many cycles know nothing of what it does? How can you add to a solution when you dont know the equation?

They build the crucible from top down, meaning that they started with that answer and developed the problem later. Proof of this is the fact that no one knew what the catalsyt was or did even thought ITS THE BIGGEST PART of the crucible hence the term "catalyst" ( define-a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. 2something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces (citadel/crucible)without itself being affected.)

How did they build the crucible without "FIRST" knowing what the catalyst is if the catalyst is the very thing that bridges the citable/crucible together and accelerate evolution(synthesis) or destroy?

On top of it all...When we do find out what the catalsyt is it just happends to be an AI that is controling the reapers themselves and JUST SO HAPPENDS to be in control of..." there"... solution itself reguarding stopping the chaos. I thgouht that the crucible was the design of the organics but it seems to be the reapers doing all along since our "catalyst" is the main enemy and happens to be the main element of the crucible/citadel design. indoctrinated agents also came up with the control function in the first place as per the prothean VI.

To me it looks like a possible trap.

The key term being "WITHOUT ITSELF BEING AFFECTED" which means that its variables weren't altered contrary to popular belief.

This is the part that gets me^. the catalyst is affected by destroy.

[CronicleChicken]

CronicleChicken wrote...

If the Catalyst is a Reaper and he presented the options to you in such a way to guide you to a particular choice. Suggestive reasoning. I think this is an indoctrination attempt like it was throughout the whole ME3 game. ]Dean_the_Young wrote...

There wasn't an indoctrination attempt throught the game.

Actually, I think there was indoctrination attempts throughout the game. Example, if the Catalyst were true it would be much more effective to take an image that brings less trauma to Shephard than be the one person he had no chance or choice to save. Why be the boy who mysteriously is now throughout the whole game. Second, let's pretend that all of ME3 actually happened. Earth was attacked, Illusive Man went on his crusades, their is a Crucible built. Shepard is faced with rallying all the races together to fight the Reapers. He makes it to the Citadel. Talks with Anderson and the Illusive Man. Meets the Catalyst. Destroys the synthetics (according to the Catalyst). The last scene we have of someone breathing, explain who is there, where is that person at, and how did they get in that situation.

I'm just saying...

[zambot]

liggy002 wrote...

zambot wrote...

...unless of course you saved the collector base and have low EMS. In that case, control is, in fact, the only solution presented by the catalyst.

No need to trick Shepard into control at that point because the Catalyst already knows that Shepard supports control.

...except Shepard still argues against control with TIM.

[Feanor_II]

If the Starbrat reality wanted to lead Shepard to bad decision it wouldn't have offered any "good choice", that's all i've to say

[His Name was HYR!!]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Yeah, looks like TIM isn't seeing what we are seeing. Kind of like he's having some kind of vision like the control ending in EC. He even says  "I saved humanity."

Sorry to ruin your TIM hatemongering but Anderson and Shepard do the same as they look over the view of Earth with clear admiration. ... *waits for people to act like they were not admiring the view*

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:17 .

[AlanC9]

ghost9191 wrote...

eh simple. you lose emotion when you have your sshep go all dead and copy of self to be new catalyst. with out that emotion you just have that cold callous logic , the ai shep won't need the old catalyst, it would probably come to the whole only way to save everyone is to turn them into reapers way of thinking without it

So the Catalyst's logic is that convincing, and it's only human irrationality that keeps us from seeing it?

You're serious?

[Eterna]

IT theorists tell us we're wrong because of their headcannon - spend hours arguing and getting nowhere.

Riveting discussion.

[szkasypcze]

KAI LENG IS ALIVE.......
http://social.biowar.../index/12889547