247 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Indoctrination is ALL about choice.

You have to be tricked into "giving into" there "suggestions". If you were aware of there presents in your mind then resisting indoctrination is possible which then leaves the reapers with there only option that is called "direct control" like they did with Paul Grayson.

This is not about indoctrination.

This is the premise of the Reapers going full-retard and not properly sabotaging the galaxy's only real shot at defeating them. They elect not to make this a fool-proof trap, but one with a possibility (a very high one) of doing them in.

Basically, handing the other side a weapon to defeat them.

The IT reguarding the crucible goes like this...

The crucible is a weapon or tool for the reapers that is designed by reapers but built by organics for a purpose that we dont know yet and the reapers need an indoctrinated agent to use it.

We thought that Shepard would wake up in london and figure out what was going on and weather or not he/she did not fall to indoctrination when we could then stop them for good after figuring out what the crucible REALLY does.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

No, but that's not who we're talking to, nor is it anything similar to that. So let's not tilt at straw windmills.

Ah, but what is it then, that makes the difference between the leader of the Reapers and the AI that controls them?

Seriously, why trust one and not the other?

The Leviathans have a mind control power that uses your memories to let you see things that are not there. The Leviathan explains to you that every Reaper has this power to influence organics, and they have perfected it over time to indoctrination. In other words: the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can, but they have perfected the art.

This makes it possible for the ending to be an illusion, and for the kid to actually be Harbinger (the Reaper that was harvested from Leviathans, no less!)

Have you considered that the sound effect that plays during the conversation with TIM on the Citadel, is actually a Reaper horn when you play it at double speed? Explain that. (If you don't know what I mean, check the link in my signature)

The difference is huge.

HUGE.

The Reapers and catalyst are not the same thing. As far as I'm concerned, the Reapers have no knowledge of the catalyst. I wrote about this at length with the link in my sig ("Reaper Command")

HYR 2.0 wrote...

He's not indoctrinated for thinking he can control them. He's indoctrinated from implanting himself with Reaper tech.

Actually, Shepard doesn't even mention TIM's implants. Renegade or paragon, the argument you use to convince him he's indoctrinated is that he can't be sure they will actually let him control them. He thinks he knows he can, but Shep convinces him otherwise.

1.) "I see what they did to you."

2.) Renegade basically only tells him "do it" and he cannot, to prove a point (that he's indoctrinated).

[brettc893]

 When I think about it, this is all that comes to mind.

[His Name was HYR!!]

KevShep wrote...

The IT reguarding the crucible goes like this...

The crucible is a weapon or tool for the reapers that is designed by reapers but built by organics for a purpose that we dont know yet and the reapers need an indoctrinated agent to use it.

I reject this explanation.

[KevShep]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The IT reguarding the crucible goes like this...

The crucible is a weapon or tool for the reapers that is designed by reapers but built by organics for a purpose that we dont know yet and the reapers need an indoctrinated agent to use it.

I reject this explanation.

They said that an indoctirnated agent always stops the current cycle from using it by betraying them to the reapers and yet the crucible plans still survive dispite the reapers having possession of them.

[His Name was HYR!!]

KevShep wrote...

They said that an indoctirnated agent always stops the current cycle from using it by betraying them to the reapers and yet the crucible plans still survive dispite the reapers having possession of them.

They never said indoctrinated agents always stopped it, they said that the cycles ran out of time.

And if the Crucible survives while the Reapers sent their thralls to sabotage it, they probably just failed to do their job.

[DoomsdayDevice]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The difference is huge.

HUGE.

The Reapers and catalyst are not the same thing. As far as I'm concerned, the Reapers have no knowledge of the catalyst. I wrote about this at length with the link in my sig ("Reaper Command")

I read what you wrote and it's a lot of assumptions.

We don't know if the Reapers have shackles.
We don't know if the Reapers are aware of the AI.

All that we know, is two things (believing the Leviathans are telling the truth for the sake of argument) :

1. The Leviathans created an AI to preserve life at any cost, this AI turned on them and harvested them.
2. We meet some kind of presence on the Citadel who claims to be this AI (and words his purpose differently as well)

The fact that the Leviathans made the AI that created the Reapers, does not mean that the entity we meet at the end of the game actually is that AI. He could just be saying he is. If he can take the image of the boy from Shepard's mind, then he can also take the knowledge of the AI from Shepard's mind and use it to his advantage.

But aside from that, the AI created the first Reaper by harvesting the Leviathans. That first Reaper became Harbinger. For all we know, the AI could have installed itself in Harbinger (synthesizing with the harvested Leviathans). Harbinger is, after all, the leader of the Reapers. If I were that AI, I'd want a mobile platform, instead of being stuck on the citadel forever. (Think EDI)

There's nothing to suggest the AI couldn't be Harbinger, and the child could very well be how he shows himself to you, in your mind. (We know Harbinger has that power because of the Leviathan DLC)

Also, consider the fact that if the Reaper AI lived on the Citadel, why the hell did Sovereign need to dock with it to open the arms in ME1?

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .

[KevShep]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

They said that an indoctirnated agent always stops the current cycle from using it by betraying them to the reapers and yet the crucible plans still survive dispite the reapers having possession of them.

They never said indoctrinated agents always stopped it, they said that the cycles ran out of time.

And if the Crucible survives while the Reapers sent their thralls to sabotage it, they probably just failed to do their job.

Thats not what the Prothean VI said. They said that indoctrinated agents always betray them to the reapers thinking that control of the reapers was the best way. The VI says this just before Kai Lang comes.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[AlanC9]

KevShep wrote...

The IT reguarding the crucible goes like this...

The crucible is a weapon or tool for the reapers that is designed by reapers but built by organics for a purpose that we dont know yet and the reapers need an indoctrinated agent to use it.

Which explains why they're trying to stop the Crucible from being deployed,

[Sundance31us]

KevShep wrote...

Thats not what the Prothean VI said. They said that indoctrinated agents always betray them to the reapers thinking that control of the reapers was the best way. The VI says this just before Kai Lang comes.

Here's the conversation:

Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?
Prothean VI: We were sabotaged form within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them.
Prothean VI: It fractured our oder of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinted.

[KevShep]

AlanC9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The IT reguarding the crucible goes like this...

The crucible is a weapon or tool for the reapers that is designed by reapers but built by organics for a purpose that we dont know yet and the reapers need an indoctrinated agent to use it.

Which explains why they're trying to stop the Crucible from being deployed,

No, they made it seem like they are tying to stop it, I mean a few capital ships guarding the crucible are not going to stop even "one" reaper from getting close to the crucible and yet none go for it at all.

[Iconoclaste]

The Crucible is a device that needs the "Catalyst" to operate properly, but the Protheans only believed the "Citadel" was the "Catalyst", nothing related to the "intelligence" the Leviathan mentioned. So the Crucible may have been designed to interfere with the Citadel, and the 3 choices are only "possible interferences" that are already built in the Citadel, not in the Crucible. Does that make sense? The "intelligence" or the "Reapers" then simply see what the "Crucible+Citadel combined capacity" really is, and this could simply be non-existent into the Crucible before it docks with the Citadel.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[KevShep]

Sundance31us wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thats not what the Prothean VI said. They said that indoctrinated agents always betray them to the reapers thinking that control of the reapers was the best way. The VI says this just before Kai Lang comes.

Here's the conversation:

Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?
Prothean VI: We were sabotaged form within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them.
Prothean VI: It fractured our oder of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinted.

Thanks.

[Iconoclaste]

Since "Control" and "Synthesis" are mostly "Reaper" tainted, these 2 choices could very well be some Citadel "potential" that only gets feasible with conjunction of the "Crucible", which in turn is mostly "resistance" tainted, and built to exploit the Citadel's functions along a "destroy" objective only.

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Since "Control" and "Synthesis" are mostly "Reaper" tainted, these 2 choices could very well be some Citadel "potential" that only gets feasible with conjunction of the "Crucible", which in turn is mostly "resistance" tainted, and built to exploit the Citadel's functions along a "destroy" objective only.

Yes, I did believe that once the reapers had gotten the crucible plans from the indoctrinated agents they may have altered it to use control and synthesis.

Control and synthesis are made by the reapers and organics made destroy. That is my head canon.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[Iconoclaste]

KevShep wrote...

Yes, I did believe that once the reapers had gotten the crucible plans from the indoctrinated agents they may have altered it to use control and synthesis.

Control and synthesis are made by the reapers and organics made destroy. That is my head canon.

In fact, "Control" and "Synthesis" are already common "Reaper practice", but it's poorly realized without the power of the Crucible. The Crucible may simply have "improved" the process which was already existent within the Citadel's capabilities.

[His Name was HYR!!]

KevShep wrote...

Sundance31us wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thats not what the Prothean VI said. They said that indoctrinated agents always betray them to the reapers thinking that control of the reapers was the best way. The VI says this just before Kai Lang comes.

Here's the conversation:

Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?
Prothean VI: We were sabotaged form within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them.
Prothean VI: It fractured our oder of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinted.

Thanks.

He said that certain patterns always emerge, not that every cycle loses because indoctrinated agents cost them the war. When it comes down to it, every cycle loses for the same reason: they ran out of time. Having to fight against indoctrinated forces hurts them, but it doesn't doom them.

[Iconoclaste]

liggy002 wrote...

( ... )

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, ...

You can stop right there : "Control" is only "revealed" at the very end, when the Crucible has docked with the Citadel. So, it is a "Crucible+Citadel coumpound" property, not a property of the "Crucible" only.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[AlanC9]

KevShep wrote...

No, they made it seem like they are tying to stop it, I mean a few capital ships guarding the crucible are not going to stop even "one" reaper from getting close to the crucible and yet none go for it at all.

Let's say I buy that. What about closing the Citadel arms? what about moving the Citadel? What about shooting people who are trying to get to the beam?

[Sundance31us]

If the Catalyst wasn't open to a new solution, why did it open the Cidadel arms and wake Shepard up? Would it not have been easier to keep the arms closed and turn the beam off? If you refuse to make a choice the Catalyst simply turns the beam off and leaves Shepard to ponder his choice by him/herself.

This is from the conversation with Leviathan:

Shepard: Will it ever end?
Leviathan: Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue.

[Iconoclaste]

Sundance31us wrote...

If the Catalyst wasn't open to a new solution, why did it open the Cidadel arms and wake Shepard up? Would it not have been easier to keep the arms closed and turn the beam off? If you refuse to make a choice the Catalyst simply turns the beam off and leaves Shepard to ponder his choice by him/herself.

This is from the conversation with Leviathan:

Shepard: Will it ever end?
Leviathan: Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue.

The Arms were opened by Shepard, via the small control panel, from what is shown in the game, just before Anderson dies.

[Sundance31us]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

He said that certain patterns always emerge, not that every cycle loses because indoctrinated agents cost them the war. When it comes down to it, every cycle loses for the same reason: they ran out of time. Having to fight against indoctrinated forces hurts them, but it doesn't doom them.

I appologize for any typos

DIALOGUE WHEEL --> The Crucible
Shepard: What happened to the Crucible in your time? Why didn't the Protheans deploy it?
Prothean VI: We were sabotaged form within. A splinter group argued we should dominate the Reapers rather than destroy them.
Prothean VI: It fractured our oder of battle. Later, we discovered the separatists were indoctrinted.
Ashley: Sounds like history's repeating itself.
Prothean VI: Our studies of past ages led us to believe that time is cyclical. Many patters repeat.
Shepard: Like the Reaper cycles.
Prothean VI: And beyond. The same peaks of evolution, the same valleys of dissolution...
Prothean VI: The same conflicts are expressed in every cycle, but in a different manner.
Prothean VI: The repetition is too prevalent to be merely chance.
Liara: We assumed the Reapers were responsible for the pattern.
Prothean VI: Perhaps. Though I believe the Reapers are only servants of the pattern. They are not its master.
Shepard: So who is the master?
Prothean VI: Unknown. Its presence is inferred rather than observed. The only certanty is its intention.
Prothean VI: Galactic annihilation. You now stand at that precipice.

[KevShep]

AlanC9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No, they made it seem like they are tying to stop it, I mean a few capital ships guarding the crucible are not going to stop even "one" reaper from getting close to the crucible and yet none go for it at all.

Let's say I buy that. What about closing the Citadel arms? what about moving the Citadel? What about shooting people who are trying to get to the beam?

they move it to earth, close the citadel arms so that every one has to go on foot and prevent anyone from reahing the citadel other then shepard.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:55 .

[Iconoclaste]

Once the arms are opened, shuttles could fly in to get to the Crucible-Citadel junction and anyone could activate it.

[Jadebaby]

This is how I see it.

Crucible

Original function - Destroy.

later added function - Control (by indoctrinated subjects)

even later added function - Synthesis (by heavily indoctrinated subjects under Reapers full control)