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If control isn't a trap, then explain this


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#101
Samtheman63

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Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

On top of that there is the last dream that shep has were we see shepard hugging the catalsyt and burning.

Its a warning from his subconscious telling him not to trust the kid.

If you side with the kid (control/synthesis) you are trusting him and then burning up.  

Can you explain why the Reapers could not achieve a similar kid "appearance" in the end as they achieved in the dreams, since they had "improved indoctrination" compared with the Leviathan, which had no problem showing "vivid persons" to Shepard? Cosmetic fancy from the "intelligence" ?


We see that kid in dreams along with oily shadows that are surrounding the kid(reference to ME1 about indoctrination). Its the same kid from his dream which most likey means that the dreams are the resolt of the reapers in his mind.

That doesn't explain why the kid looks like a "hologram" in the ending, while the Leviathan can easily make "perfect illusions" even without the "advanced indoc powers" that the Reapers have.

Because its representing the catalyst, an AI.....

if shepard found a real live boy up there, then i think even you might click in that theres more to the ending than meets the eye

#102
Comsky159

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DIs prvoes ITdonctinrnn ht ehe e

#103
KevShep

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Iconoclaste wrote...

I know this subject was addressed somewhere before, but since we see the "handles" and tubes on the "decision platform", those things would have been huge "hints" that something went besides plans after the Crucible was finished. that's why these "handles" would rather be part of the Citadel... I don't know if what I write is clear, but anyway you look at it, since "control" was never the intent by the Protheans (non-indoc ones), why would there be "obvious handles" on the device? And if "Control" had succesfully been "sabotaged" into the construct, how come nobody reacted to these handles (if on the device, repeating myself here) or, even better, how come nobody on the Citadel ever noticed these things protuding from the underside of the Presidium Tower?

"Look guys, handles! Just there, on the ground! I wonder what they're for? Oh, never mind...." Centuries went by, and nobody ever had a closer look?


Iam not really sure what your saying but I often bring up the fact that the place that you make you decisions is on the citadel...not the crucible. This means that organics of past races may not have designed the crucible at all, it would have to be the ones that made the citadel.

#104
liggy002

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Kataphrut94 wrote...

There is a rather obvious counter-point to this idiocy, namely that people who pick the Control option quite clearly get an ending in which they control the Reapers. This comes with no strings attached unless you did a low-EMS playthrough. Exactly the same as with Synthesis, which people also seem to think is an evil trap despite the blinding evidence to the contrary. Destroy is the option that is easiest to get the "ruin Earth" ending and even the best version of it still has you committing genocide, so I don't see why people think it's the one with the moral high ground.

Also, while Vendetta mentions indoctrinated spies wanting to use it for Control ala Cerberus, he also mentions that the protheans were never able to use their Crucible as a result of the indoctrinated infighting. The Illusive Man never touched our version of it and it's not until we meet the Catalyst that we learn it can actually be done, more or less by the one in charge leaving the keys in the ignition for us as it were.



Idiocy is believing that the kid is real when he clearly isn't.  See the vent scene when we don't hear any noise in the vent when he crawls away.  It was AN INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPT.  And what Sam says, an indoctrinated TIM urged you to choose Control.

#105
His Name was HYR!!

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Samtheman63 wrote...

no, TiM isnt shown to be fully indoctrinated until the end of the game, so it would make sense that he would be working seperatly rather than being one of the "sleeper agents"


Doesn't matter "how indoctrinated" he is or not. The point stands: there is no evidence that the indoctrinated Protheans wanted to implement control to the Crucible. The only such claim comes from Destroyers whose cases reek of bias.

Its the case of the scientist who cuts off a frog's limbs, tells it to jump, and then concludes that a frog without limbs cannot hear.


But the fact still remains, a reaper controlled TiM tells you to pick control, this means the reapers are telling you to pick control.  And the catalyst, the one responsbile for a few trillion deaths, tells you to pick synthesis.

and you do? unbelievable


The Reapers weren't telling you to pick anything, they were manipulating TIM to sabotage the war efforts by appealing to his want for control of the Reapers. The issue is not TIM wanting control, it's TIM preventing the Crucible from docking and endangering everything in the process.

#106
liggy002

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

no, TiM isnt shown to be fully indoctrinated until the end of the game, so it would make sense that he would be working seperatly rather than being one of the "sleeper agents"


Doesn't matter "how indoctrinated" he is or not. The point stands: there is no evidence that the indoctrinated Protheans wanted to implement control to the Crucible. The only such claim comes from Destroyers whose cases reek of bias.

Its the case of the scientist who cuts off a frog's limbs, tells it to jump, and then concludes that a frog without limbs cannot hear.


But the fact still remains, a reaper controlled TiM tells you to pick control, this means the reapers are telling you to pick control.  And the catalyst, the one responsbile for a few trillion deaths, tells you to pick synthesis.

and you do? unbelievable


The Reapers weren't telling you to pick anything, they were manipulating TIM to sabotage the war efforts by appealing to his want for control of the Reapers. The issue is not TIM wanting control, it's TIM preventing the Crucible from docking and endangering everything in the process.


The Catalyst itself tells you that it is much more than AI.  And you really believe that someone is capable of reprogramming his agenda?  He is the master of cycles according to the Prothean VI.

#107
Iconoclaste

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Samtheman63 wrote...

Because its representing the catalyst, an AI.....

if shepard found a real live boy up there, then i think even you might click in that theres more to the ending than meets the eye

Well, not after "Leviathan", but honestly, what difference does it make? Shepard would be "ok" with a holo-boy taken from his memories, but not from the kid?

Why not go for the "perfect illusion" instead? Wouldn't that help Shepard believe that, instead of "killing organics", the Reapers effectively "spare them"?

If a holo-boy explains the Reapers motivations and the choices offered by the Crucible, it's ok, but if it's the "dead boy" it's not? Why so?

#108
WhiteKnyght

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liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:18 .


#109
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liggy002 wrote...

The Catalyst itself tells you that it is much more than AI.  And you really believe that someone is capable of reprogramming his agenda?  He is the master of cycles according to the Prothean VI.

Then again, why the need for Shepard at all? Why having any conversation with Shepard?

#110
Kataphrut94

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liggy002 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

There is a rather obvious counter-point to this idiocy, namely that people who pick the Control option quite clearly get an ending in which they control the Reapers. This comes with no strings attached unless you did a low-EMS playthrough. Exactly the same as with Synthesis, which people also seem to think is an evil trap despite the blinding evidence to the contrary. Destroy is the option that is easiest to get the "ruin Earth" ending and even the best version of it still has you committing genocide, so I don't see why people think it's the one with the moral high ground.

Also, while Vendetta mentions indoctrinated spies wanting to use it for Control ala Cerberus, he also mentions that the protheans were never able to use their Crucible as a result of the indoctrinated infighting. The Illusive Man never touched our version of it and it's not until we meet the Catalyst that we learn it can actually be done, more or less by the one in charge leaving the keys in the ignition for us as it were.



Idiocy is believing that the kid is real when he clearly isn't.  See the vent scene when we don't hear any noise in the vent when he crawls away.  It was AN INDOCTRINATION ATTEMPT.  And what Sam says, an indoctrinated TIM urged you to choose Control.


The kid is a product of forced emotional manipulation on the part of the writers, coupled with dodgy acting. He isn't an indoctrination ghost, he's just the first child we ever see in the series and clearly hasn't quite clawed his way out of the uncanny valley yet. The Catalyst just looks like him because he's making an attempt to appear non-hostile and comforting to us but has no grasp on human emotions so it all falls flat- a comparable example is GLaDOS feebly trying to manipulate our feelings in Portal with hollow promises of cake and painting a heart on the side of a cube.

As for TIM, he didn't urge us to choose Control because he was dead by the time we had to make that choice. He just tried to convince us it could be done and we naturally disagreed because he was clearly a raving lunatic and we didn't yet know that he was actually half-right- Shepard says as much when he finds out for himself.

As I said before, this argument is all meaningless because I have chosen the Control ending many times and it works absolutely fine. No traps, no indoctrination, just a big brain-uploady thing that lets me stop the Reapers with no collateral damage or forced evolution.

#111
liggy002

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The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"


Just because TIM didn't have Reaper tech in him, doesn't mean that he wasn't already indoctrinated.  The Reapers engineered the infighting between the Alliance and Cerberus factions.  History had repeated itself.  They planted the idea of control in TIM's mind and then to assure complete control over him, they made him get implants.  There's nowhere that says that there aren't different levels of indoctrination.

Modifié par liggy002, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .


#112
KevShep

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The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"


Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

#113
KevShep

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liggy002 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"


Just because TIM didn't have Reaper tech in him, doesn't mean that he wasn't already indoctrinated.


exactly, he has spent alot of time around that human reaper core, and other reaper tech as well

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:25 .


#114
Iconoclaste

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If, for any reason, the Catalyst needs "Shepard to make a (bad) choice then fall to indoc", and Shepard gets "vaporized" in the process, why all this trouble and spare him at the "Run for the Beam"? Would having Shepard "wake up" in London and try to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" make any sense?

#115
liggy002

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That's a very good point Kevin... how could anybody hope to "reprogram" the Catalyst if they don't even know it exists?

#116
KevShep

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Iconoclaste wrote...

If, for any reason, the Catalyst needs "Shepard to make a (bad) choice then fall to indoc", and Shepard gets "vaporized" in the process, why all this trouble and spare him at the "Run for the Beam"? Would having Shepard "wake up" in London and try to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" make any sense?


If shep falls to indoc then he does NOT get vaporized because its a dream.

Edit: if your talking about the run to the beam then "that" part is not a dream.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .


#117
liggy002

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KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"


Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.


Or it was designed by Organics who were indoctrinated, it could be that they knew of the Catalyst because they were part of the Reaper collective.

#118
WhiteKnyght

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liggy002 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"


Just because TIM didn't have Reaper tech in him, doesn't mean that he wasn't already indoctrinated.


The drastic change between his usual smug attitude in Priority: Cerberus Headquarters and Citadel: The Return, in which he was an irrational raving lunatic shows that he was a victim of rapid indoctrination, not the slow deep cover one.

And he had no signs of indoctrination at any time between the beginning of ME2 and Priority: Earth. He was always a greedy and power-hungry manipulatior. The moment he wanted to save the Collector Base proved he was tricking you the entire time.

Taking control of your enemy's strengths and resources has been human nature since our first wars. You do it yourself to Cerberus throughout ME2 and ME3. You steal the Normandy SR-2, the Illusive Man's top agents, and througout ME3 you amass so many Cerberus resources that they have their own category.

A person seeing what the Reapers can do and wanting to control it is almost natural. And the Protheans, if they had lived, would have enslaved humanity and all of the other races, but instead we took advantage of their destruction by the Reapers and made their tech and knowledge our own. Same principle.

#119
Iconoclaste

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KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:33 .


#120
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KevShep wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If, for any reason, the Catalyst needs "Shepard to make a (bad) choice then fall to indoc", and Shepard gets "vaporized" in the process, why all this trouble and spare him at the "Run for the Beam"? Would having Shepard "wake up" in London and try to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" make any sense?


If shep falls to indoc then he does NOT get vaporized because its a dream.

Edit: if your talking about the run to the beam then "that" part is not a dream.

That doesn't address my point.

#121
Sundance31us

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For reference

Final conversation with the Catalyst (Includes Leviathan dialogue)

Child: Wake up.
Shepard: What? Where am I?
Child: The Citadel. It's my home.
Shepard: Who are you?
Child: I am the Catalyst.
Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
Child: No, the Citadel is part of me.
Shepard: I need to stop the Reapers. Do you know how I can do that?
Child: Perhaps. I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? To what?
Child: Chaos.
Child: The created will always rebel against their creators.
Child: Bue we found a way to stop that from happening, a way to restore order.
Shepard: By wiping out organic life?
Child: No. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone.
Child: Just was we left your people alive the last time we were here.
Shepard: But you killed the reast.
Child: We helped them ascend sot hey could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.
Shepard: I think we'd rather keep our own form.
Child: No, you can't...
Child: Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.
Child: We've created this cyle so that never happens. That's the solution.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: Catalyst
Shepard: You said you're the Catalyst, but...what are you?
Child: A construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem.
Child: I was created to bring balance, to be the catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.
Shepard: So you're just an AI?
Child: In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.
Shepard: But you were created...
Child: Correct.
Shepard: By who?
Child: By ones who recognized that conflict would always arise between synthetics and organics.
Child: I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life...to establish a connection.
Child: But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required.
Shepard: The Reapers?
Child: Precisely.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: Leviathan
Shepard: I met your creators. They told me what you did to them.
Child: We did as we were expected.
Shepard: They said you betrayed them. That you turned them into Harbinger.
Child: When they asked that I solve the problem of conflict, they failed to understand they were part of the problem themselves.
Child: The flaws of their organic reasoning could not perceive this. They lacked the foresight to understand their destruction was part of the very solution they required.
Shepard: Well, they've joined this war now.
Child: And I welcome their involvement. I am only facilitating their request.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: Reapers
Shepard: Where did the Reaper come from? Did you create them?
Child: My creators gave them form. I game them function. They, in turn give me purpose.
Child: The Reapers are a synthetic representaion of my creators.
Shepard: The Leviathan...
Child: Yes. They created me to oversee the relations between synthetics and organic life--to establish a connection.
Child: They became the first true Reaper. They did not approve, but it as the only solution.
Shepard: You said that before, but how to the Reapers solve anything?
Child: Organics create synthetics to improve their own existance, but those improvements have limits.
Child: To exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators.
Child: The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.
Child: Reapers harvest all life--organic and synthetic--preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflic.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: How is "this" not conflict?
Shepard: We're at war with the Reapers right now!
Child: You may be in conflict with the Reapers, but they are not interested in war.
Shepard: I find that hard to believe.
Child: When fire burns, it it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do?
Child: We are no different.
Child: We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations. We preserve it to be reborn in the form of a new Reaper.
Child: Like a clensing fire, we restore balance.
Child: New life, both organic and synthetic, can once again flourish.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: Crucible
Shepard: What do you know about the Crucible?
Child: The device you refer to as the Crucible is little more than a power source.
Child: However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy throughout the galaxy.
Child: It is crude but effective and adaptive in its design.
Shepard: Who designed it?
Child: You would not know them, and there is not enough time to explain.
Child: We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago.
Child: With each passing cycle, the design has no doubt evolved.
Shepard: Why didn't you stop it?
Child: We believed the concept had been eradicated.
Child: Clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: You'll never understand us.
Shepard: The defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for ourselves, make our own choices.
Shepard: You take that away, and we might was well be machines just like you.
Child: You have choice. More than you know.
Child: The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it.
Child: But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.
Shepard: So now what?
Child: We find a new solution.
Shepard: Why are you telling me this? Why help me?
Child: You have altered the variables.
Shepard: What do you mean?
Child: The Crucible changed me, created new possiblilities. But I can't make them happen.
Child: If there is to be a new solution, you must act.
Child: It is now in your powre to destroy us.
Child: But be warned: others will be destroyed as well.
Child: The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted.
Child: Even you are partly synthetic...
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: I want details.
Shepard: What exactly with happen?
Child: Your Crucible device appears largely intact. However, the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers.
Child: Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage.
Child: There will still be losses, but no more than what has already been lost.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: It will end the war?
Shepard: But the Reapers will be destroyed?
Child: Yes, but the peace won't last.
Child: Soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back.
Shepard: There has to be another way...
Child: There is.
Child: You could instead use the energy of the Crucible to seize control of the Reapers.
Shepard: So...the Illusive Man was right after all.
Child: Yes, but he could never have taken control...because we already controlled him.
Shepard: But I can...
Child: You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: I don't understand...
Shepard: How can I control the Reapers if I'm dead?
Child: Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts, and even your memories, will continue.
Child: Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existence.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: I'm not losing anything.
Shepard: I didn't fight this war so I could give up everything I have.
Child: And I do not look forward to being replaced by you, but...I would be forced to accept it.
Shepard: not if I refuse to do it.
Child: There is another solution.
Child: Synthesis.
Shepard: And that is?
Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's.
Child: The chain reation will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new...DNA.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: How?
Shepard: Explain how my energy cna be added to the Crucible.
Child: There is little time left, but I will try.
Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who and what you are, will be broken down and then disprersed.
Shepard: To do what, exactly?
Child: The energy of the Crucible, release din this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy.
Child: Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding.
Child: Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics.
Child: It is the ideal solution. Now that we know its possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis.
Shepard: Why couldn't you do it sooner?
Child: We have tried...a simular solution in the past.
Child: But it ahs always failed.
Shepard: Why?
Child: Because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be...forced.
Child: You are ready. And you may choose it.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: I won't make that decision.
Shepard: You're asking me to change everything...everyone. I can't make that decision. I won't.
Child: Why not? Syntheics are already part of you. Cna you imagine your life without them?
Shepard: That's beside the point.
Child: Your time is at an end. You must decide.
======DIALOGUE WHEEL: Then let's end it.
Shepard: Let's get this over with.
Child: Do what you must.

Appologize for any typos.

Edit: To correct a typo.

Modifié par Sundance31us, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:26 .


#122
KevShep

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liggy002 wrote...


Or it was designed by Organics who were indoctrinated, it could be that they knew of the Catalyst because they were part of the Reaper collective.


This^.

The catalyst is the center point of the whole thing. If the organics are designing it then they would have to know the ends and out of every aspect of the catalyst since the crucible plans are a mammoth undertaking of tech that surrounds the catalyst himself.

#123
WhiteKnyght

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KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "



   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.


Except the Illusive Man doesn't actually become indoctrinated until after Thessia, you see him telling one of his doctors to pump him full of reaper tech because Santuary was a "success" and then an hour later, on the Citadel, he's mutated as hell and completely lost his mind(he acts nothing like he normally does).

Being greedy and wanting to control your enemy doesn't make you automatically brainwashed.

The prothean separatists might well have became indoctrinated while experimenting on Reaper tech, just like Cerberus was and did. Not because they wanted to "control the Reapers"


Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.


Except the Leviathans don't call it the Catalyst. They call it "The Intelligence" Only it calls itself that because it thinks it is the key to peace between organics and synthetics. A catalyst.

The Protheans themselves used the term catalyst as the cover name for the Citadel to keep the Reapers from discovering what it was. Because it was the catalyst for victory against the Reapers. If the Protheans knew that the Reapers master was the Catalyst, Vendetta would have said so.

It's two sides using the same word with different meanings. You can make all of the decisions without the Catalyst's presence, after all. He just gives you a rundown, and even refuses to assist you in lower EMS variables.

#124
KevShep

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Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If, for any reason, the Catalyst needs "Shepard to make a (bad) choice then fall to indoc", and Shepard gets "vaporized" in the process, why all this trouble and spare him at the "Run for the Beam"? Would having Shepard "wake up" in London and try to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" make any sense?


If shep falls to indoc then he does NOT get vaporized because its a dream.

Edit: if your talking about the run to the beam then "that" part is not a dream.

That doesn't address my point.


If he is indoctirnated then he could be on the citadel while he is dreaming doing the reapers biding.

If he chose destroy then he is not indoctrinated and is still in london and wakes up.

#125
liggy002

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Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".


Shepard even asks the Catalyst if the Catalyst is the Citadel, and he repies that I AM THE CATALYST.  That means that he is a seperate entity all together.  The Citadel is his home but that doesn't mean that he is a part of it.