247 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Except the Leviathans don't call it the Catalyst. They call it "The Intelligence" Only it calls itself that because it thinks it is the key to peace between organics and synthetics. A catalyst.

The Protheans themselves used the term catalyst as the cover name for the Citadel to keep the Reapers from discovering what it was. Because it was the catalyst for victory against the Reapers. If the Protheans knew that the Reapers master was the Catalyst, Vendetta would have said so.

It's two sides using the same word with different meanings. You can make all of the decisions without the Catalyst's presence, after all. He just gives you a rundown, and even refuses to assist you in lower EMS variables.

No, it does not work without the catalyst. The catalyst is the main element. Its still a reaper meaning that if the organics knew of it then they would ether be indoctrinated or its designed by the reapers themselves.

[WhiteKnyght]

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

The chamber you are in and its junctions are within the Citadel, not the Crucible.

Child: Wake up.
Shepard: What? Where am I?
Child: The Citadel. It's my home.

The crucible transmits power to the Citadel, which controls the Mass Relay network. Even Vendetta said that they meant to use the Reaper's own technology against them.

The antechamber you are in when you make the choice could be the Citadel Equivalent to EDI's AI core aboard the Normandy. Hence why Star Brat appears there and nowhere else

[Iconoclaste]

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

Shepard even asks the Catalyst if the Catalyst is the Citadel, and he repies that I AM THE CATALYST.  That means that he is a seperate entity all together.  The Citadel is his home but that doesn't mean that he is a part of it.

What the Catalyst says at this point has no relation to what the designers of the Crucible thought! In fact, the Catalyst says the Citadel is its "home" and a "part of him". But that changes strictly nothing from the "builder's perspective". They didn't design the Crucible thinking "the other part, this "catalyst" might not be the Citadel, but hey, whatever..." It's crucial to have proper motivation for this "Intelligence" to keep Shepard alive and chat with him, instead of just blowing him to bits while approaching the Conduit. From "face value", the reason is simple  : the "Crucible" blocks the Catalyst from action towards the "new solution", and the Catalyst needs someone to activate the "solution".

From IT perspective, I asked the question twice just on the previous page : why does the Catalyst need Shepard, at all, instead of blowing him up?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[WhiteKnyght]

KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Except the Leviathans don't call it the Catalyst. They call it "The Intelligence" Only it calls itself that because it thinks it is the key to peace between organics and synthetics. A catalyst.

The Protheans themselves used the term catalyst as the cover name for the Citadel to keep the Reapers from discovering what it was. Because it was the catalyst for victory against the Reapers. If the Protheans knew that the Reapers master was the Catalyst, Vendetta would have said so.

It's two sides using the same word with different meanings. You can make all of the decisions without the Catalyst's presence, after all. He just gives you a rundown, and even refuses to assist you in lower EMS variables.

No, it does not work without the catalyst. The catalyst is the main element. Its still a reaper meaning that if the organics knew of it then they would ether be indoctrinated or its designed by the reapers themselves.

If the Reapers themselves designed it, why would the Catalyst begrudgingly compliment humans for being able to preserve the "concept?" The disappointment and wounded ego can be heard in the tone of its voice.

Not to mention the skematics for the Crucible have it constructed using normal resources. All Reaper inventions use their own technology, which presumably originated from their creators, the Leviathans.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...



From IT perspective, I asked the question twice just on this page : why does the Catalyst need Shepard, at all, instead of blowing him up?

thats what we were expecting to find out. We were also expecting to learn of the crucibles real functions. 

[liggy002]

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

Shepard even asks the Catalyst if the Catalyst is the Citadel, and he repies that I AM THE CATALYST.  That means that he is a seperate entity all together.  The Citadel is his home but that doesn't mean that he is a part of it.

What the Catalyst says at this point has no relation to what the designers of the Crucible thought! In fact, the Catalyst says the Citadel is its "home" and a "part of him". But that changes strictly nothing from the "builder's perspective". They didn't design the Crucible thinking "the other part, this "catalyst" might not be the Citadel, but hey, whatever..." It's crucial to have proper motivation for this "Intelligence" to keep Shepard alive and chat with him, instead of just blowing him to bits while approaching the Conduit. From "face value", the reason is simple  : the "Crucible" blocks the Catalyst from action towards the "new solution", and the Catalyst needs someone to activate the "solution".

From IT perspective, I asked the question twice just on this page : why does the Catalyst need Shepard, at all, instead of blowing him up?

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

[KevShep]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Except the Leviathans don't call it the Catalyst. They call it "The Intelligence" Only it calls itself that because it thinks it is the key to peace between organics and synthetics. A catalyst.

The Protheans themselves used the term catalyst as the cover name for the Citadel to keep the Reapers from discovering what it was. Because it was the catalyst for victory against the Reapers. If the Protheans knew that the Reapers master was the Catalyst, Vendetta would have said so.

It's two sides using the same word with different meanings. You can make all of the decisions without the Catalyst's presence, after all. He just gives you a rundown, and even refuses to assist you in lower EMS variables.

No, it does not work without the catalyst. The catalyst is the main element. Its still a reaper meaning that if the organics knew of it then they would ether be indoctrinated or its designed by the reapers themselves.

If the Reapers themselves designed it, why would the Catalyst begrudgingly compliment humans for being able to preserve the "concept?" The disappointment and wounded ego can be heard in the tone of its voice.

Not to mention the skematics for the Crucible have it constructed using normal resources. All Reaper inventions use their own technology, which presumably originated from their creators, the Leviathans.

If your going to design a plan and you dont know anything about the main element of it then how can you even begin to design it? We see that it is already made which means that who ever designed it knew exactly what the catalsyt was.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[liggy002]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

The chamber you are in and its junctions are within the Citadel, not the Crucible.

Child: Wake up.
Shepard: What? Where am I?
Child: The Citadel. It's my home.

The crucible transmits power to the Citadel, which controls the Mass Relay network. Even Vendetta said that they meant to use the Reaper's own technology against them.

The antechamber you are in when you make the choice could be the Citadel Equivalent to EDI's AI core aboard the Normandy. Hence why Star Brat appears there and nowhere else

I'm not too sure about that.  Remember that so called light source at the Reaper core where tons of husks were coming after you?  And then that planetary side mission in ME2 (can't remember which planet) where there was this strange light and, again, tons of husks running at you.  That looked like the Catalyst to me.

[liggy002]

KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Except the Leviathans don't call it the Catalyst. They call it "The Intelligence" Only it calls itself that because it thinks it is the key to peace between organics and synthetics. A catalyst.

The Protheans themselves used the term catalyst as the cover name for the Citadel to keep the Reapers from discovering what it was. Because it was the catalyst for victory against the Reapers. If the Protheans knew that the Reapers master was the Catalyst, Vendetta would have said so.

It's two sides using the same word with different meanings. You can make all of the decisions without the Catalyst's presence, after all. He just gives you a rundown, and even refuses to assist you in lower EMS variables.

No, it does not work without the catalyst. The catalyst is the main element. Its still a reaper meaning that if the organics knew of it then they would ether be indoctrinated or its designed by the reapers themselves.

If the Reapers themselves designed it, why would the Catalyst begrudgingly compliment humans for being able to preserve the "concept?" The disappointment and wounded ego can be heard in the tone of its voice.

Not to mention the skematics for the Crucible have it constructed using normal resources. All Reaper inventions use their own technology, which presumably originated from their creators, the Leviathans.

If your going to design a plan and you dont know anything about the main element of it then how can you even begin to design it? We see that it is already made which means that who ever designed it knew exactly what the catalsyt was.

Not to mention that the main element is as much an AI as a human is an animal... unbelievably complicated.  The idea that any organic could comprehend it is next to impossible.

Modifié par liggy002, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Iconoclaste]

liggy002 wrote...

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?

You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?

[WhiteKnyght]

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

Shepard even asks the Catalyst if the Catalyst is the Citadel, and he repies that I AM THE CATALYST.  That means that he is a seperate entity all together.  The Citadel is his home but that doesn't mean that he is a part of it.

What the Catalyst says at this point has no relation to what the designers of the Crucible thought! In fact, the Catalyst says the Citadel is its "home" and a "part of him". But that changes strictly nothing from the "builder's perspective". They didn't design the Crucible thinking "the other part, this "catalyst" might not be the Citadel, but hey, whatever..." It's crucial to have proper motivation for this "Intelligence" to keep Shepard alive and chat with him, instead of just blowing him to bits while approaching the Conduit. From "face value", the reason is simple  : the "Crucible" blocks the Catalyst from action towards the "new solution", and the Catalyst needs someone to activate the "solution".

From IT perspective, I asked the question twice just on the previous page : why does the Catalyst need Shepard, at all, instead of blowing him up?

Another possibility is that the Citadel was in fact created by the Leviathans.

Think about it.

1. Computers aren't made out of light. The Leviathans created the Intelligence, so it's core has to be housed somewhere. Since the Citadel is "its home" and "a part of it," the Citadel is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is to EDI.

2. The Catalyst has no apparent control over the Citadel after the Protheans sabotaged the Keepers to where they wouldn't obey the Reapers. Which also steers a little support towards the implications that it's a shackled AI and bound to the "solutions" rather than going 'I don't care' like a free willed synthetic could and would.

The Catalyst helps Shepard exactly for the reason it states. It has no choice but to stick to a solution for the conflict and Shepard "altered the variables" when he added the Crucible and new solutions became possible.

[SauliusL]

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?

You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?

A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.

[liggy002]

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?

You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?

Again, that's a question for Bioware since they were going to make a sequence in which Shepard was indoctrinated.

[WhiteKnyght]

liggy002 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

The chamber you are in and its junctions are within the Citadel, not the Crucible.

Child: Wake up.
Shepard: What? Where am I?
Child: The Citadel. It's my home.

The crucible transmits power to the Citadel, which controls the Mass Relay network. Even Vendetta said that they meant to use the Reaper's own technology against them.

The antechamber you are in when you make the choice could be the Citadel Equivalent to EDI's AI core aboard the Normandy. Hence why Star Brat appears there and nowhere else

I'm not too sure about that.  Remember that so called light source at the Reaper core where tons of husks were coming after you?  And then that planetary side mission in ME2 (can't remember which planet) where there was this strange light and, again, tons of husks running at you.  That looked like the Catalyst to me.

That same light also comes from mass effect cores when they are active, including the Normandy's.

[KevShep]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

Shepard even asks the Catalyst if the Catalyst is the Citadel, and he repies that I AM THE CATALYST.  That means that he is a seperate entity all together.  The Citadel is his home but that doesn't mean that he is a part of it.

What the Catalyst says at this point has no relation to what the designers of the Crucible thought! In fact, the Catalyst says the Citadel is its "home" and a "part of him". But that changes strictly nothing from the "builder's perspective". They didn't design the Crucible thinking "the other part, this "catalyst" might not be the Citadel, but hey, whatever..." It's crucial to have proper motivation for this "Intelligence" to keep Shepard alive and chat with him, instead of just blowing him to bits while approaching the Conduit. From "face value", the reason is simple  : the "Crucible" blocks the Catalyst from action towards the "new solution", and the Catalyst needs someone to activate the "solution".

From IT perspective, I asked the question twice just on the previous page : why does the Catalyst need Shepard, at all, instead of blowing him up?

Another possibility is that the Citadel was in fact created by the Leviathans.

Think about it.

1. Computers aren't made out of light. The Leviathans created the Intelligence, so it's core has to be housed somewhere. Since the Citadel is "its home" and "a part of it," the Citadel is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is to EDI.

2. The Catalyst has no apparent control over the Citadel after the Protheans sabotaged the Keepers to where they wouldn't obey the Reapers. Which also steers a little support towards the implications that it's a shackled AI and bound to the "solutions" rather than going 'I don't care' like a free willed synthetic could and would.

The Catalyst helps Shepard exactly for the reason it states. It has no choice but to stick to a solution for the conflict and Shepard "altered the variables" when he added the Crucible and new solutions became possible.

This is something else that bugs me with the catalsyt. If he has control over the reapers then how come he doesnt have control over the citadel? The catalyst could just override the protheans data file.

[WhiteKnyght]

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?

You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?

Again, that's a question for Bioware since they were going to make a sequence in which Shepard was indoctrinated.

I'd like to see proof of that statement. And I mean a link to the exact place where an actual Bioware developer said it, not just because you say they were.

Also I note the past tense. Meaning even if they were, things changed.

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?

You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?

Who says Shepard doesnt wake up?

It is stated many times that the reapers "want" shepard intact.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[Sundance31us]

For reference:

"Reaper" Shepard Monologue: (High Paragon, but not perfect.)

Shepard: Eternal. Infinate. Immortal.
Shepard: The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Shepard: And only now do I understand the full extent of his sacrifice.
Shepard: Through his death, I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed. They guide me now, give me reason, direction.
Shepard: Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him, the ones who helped him achieve his purpose.
Shepard: Now my purpose.
Shepard: To give the many a chance at peace.
Shepard: To allow the mistakes of the past to be righted.
Shepard: To provide a voice for those too weak to speak for themselves.
Shepard: The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becomming something greater.
Shepard: There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.
Shepard: I will rebuild what the many have lost.
Shepard: I will create a future with limitless possibilities.
Shepard: I will protect and I will sustain. I will act as guardian for the many.
Shepard: And throughout it all, I will never forget.
Shepard: I will remember the ones who sacraficed themselves so that the many could survive.
Shepard: And I will watch over the ones who live on.
Shepard: Those who carry the memory of the man I once was.
Shepard: The man who gave up his life to become the one who could save the many.

Leviathan included, but I don't think it changed this dialogue.

[KevShep]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Why don't you ask Bioware that too?  The Reapers wanted Shepard.  Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival.  Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his.  The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous.  Remember Saren?  Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever.  Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.

What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?

You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?

Again, that's a question for Bioware since they were going to make a sequence in which Shepard was indoctrinated.

I'd like to see proof of that statement. And I mean a link to the exact place where an actual Bioware developer said it, not just because you say they were.

Also I note the past tense. Meaning even if they were, things changed.

[Iconoclaste]

liggy002 wrote...

Not to mention that the main element is as much an AI as a human is an animal... unbelievably complicated.  The idea that any organic could comprehend it is next to impossible.

That's because you're seeing the term "Catalyst" in retrospective, but during the game, before meeting with the "intelligence", no one knows anything more than "Catalyst = Citadel". If the Crucible is simply a device that uses "Reaper tech", and since the Protheans already made successful modifications to the "keepers" it's easy to suppose they had a very good knowledge of the "Citadel", heck they even made their own "mini-relay" on Ilos!

This whole "Crucible" thing is mostly annoying during the whole game, from my experience, because I hardly see any taskforce putting so much efforts in "uncertainty", to be honest. But I can easily believe that the Crucible's design showed by itself that it would do "bad" to the Reapers, even lacking a main "part" that would render it efficient on a "Galactic" scale. I tried to find the part where Mordin comments on the Crucible after joining the taskforce, but I found nothing, only references. Up until the end, I thought the Crucible would be some kind of huge gun, and learning along the way it lacked a "Catalyst" and not knowing anything more made the quality of the intrigue go down to places I rarely go...

[WhiteKnyght]

KevShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Ive always wondered why people cant figure this out...

The crucible plans were designed and built by organics right?

Yet in the game its said that no one (meaning in every cycle) knew what the catalyst was and that it was part of the crucible plans.

That catalyst... just happends to be a reaper, not just any reaper but the main one. If the catalyst is part of the main plans of the crucible and organics dont know anything about it then it cant be designed by organics.

In the "designing the Crucible" part of the story, the "Catalyst" is clearly the "Citadel", from the Prothean VI. Only when the Crucible has docked that the "intelligence" reveals itself . So, the "organics" designed a "Crucible" to work with the "Catalyst" (Citadel) but they didn't need to know it had optional "Control" or "Synthesis" resulting of the junction of the two "parts", they only needed the "destroy" option, and they didn't need to know about the "intelligence" to achieve that. That also explains why the "intelligence" would not have been dumb to the point of leaving the "destroy" possibility getting built into the Crucible, at least not without any "safeguard".

Shepard even asks the Catalyst if the Catalyst is the Citadel, and he repies that I AM THE CATALYST.  That means that he is a seperate entity all together.  The Citadel is his home but that doesn't mean that he is a part of it.

What the Catalyst says at this point has no relation to what the designers of the Crucible thought! In fact, the Catalyst says the Citadel is its "home" and a "part of him". But that changes strictly nothing from the "builder's perspective". They didn't design the Crucible thinking "the other part, this "catalyst" might not be the Citadel, but hey, whatever..." It's crucial to have proper motivation for this "Intelligence" to keep Shepard alive and chat with him, instead of just blowing him to bits while approaching the Conduit. From "face value", the reason is simple  : the "Crucible" blocks the Catalyst from action towards the "new solution", and the Catalyst needs someone to activate the "solution".

From IT perspective, I asked the question twice just on the previous page : why does the Catalyst need Shepard, at all, instead of blowing him up?

Another possibility is that the Citadel was in fact created by the Leviathans.

Think about it.

1. Computers aren't made out of light. The Leviathans created the Intelligence, so it's core has to be housed somewhere. Since the Citadel is "its home" and "a part of it," the Citadel is to the Catalyst what the Normandy is to EDI.

2. The Catalyst has no apparent control over the Citadel after the Protheans sabotaged the Keepers to where they wouldn't obey the Reapers. Which also steers a little support towards the implications that it's a shackled AI and bound to the "solutions" rather than going 'I don't care' like a free willed synthetic could and would.

The Catalyst helps Shepard exactly for the reason it states. It has no choice but to stick to a solution for the conflict and Shepard "altered the variables" when he added the Crucible and new solutions became possible.

This is something else that bugs me with the catalsyt. If he has control over the reapers then how come he doesnt have control over the citadel? The catalyst could just override the protheans data file.

Easy to figure. The Citadel is Leviathan tech. Not talking about the giant pearl artifacts, considering how Leviathan, an organic, mentally interacts with those, they're probably it's own excretions(Lev is supposed to be a sea creature. It probably copies oysters who make pearls.) not the actual technology they used when they ruled the galaxy.

The reason it's the same as the Mass Relays is because the Catalyst had to use Lev tech when it started out, so Harbinger, the Mass Relays, and the other Reapers are modeled after it.

The Reapers had to use the Keepers to control the Citadel the whole time. If it was their own creation, they'd just be able to control it remotely.

Also didn't Vigil state to Shepard that after he used the data file, it'd corrupt so that the Reapers couldn't do anything?

[Iconoclaste]

SauliusL wrote...

A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.

How would a "sleeping Shepard" achieve that?

[Sundance31us]

@KevShep

What is that image from?

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

Not to mention that the main element is as much an AI as a human is an animal... unbelievably complicated.  The idea that any organic could comprehend it is next to impossible.

That's because you're seeing the term "Catalyst" in retrospective, but during the game, before meeting with the "intelligence", no one knows anything more than "Catalyst = Citadel". If the Crucible is simply a device that uses "Reaper tech", and since the Protheans already made successful modifications to the "keepers" it's easy to suppose they had a very good knowledge of the "Citadel", heck they even made their own "mini-relay" on Ilos!

This whole "Crucible" thing is mostly annoying during the whole game, from my experience, because I hardly see any taskforce putting so much efforts in "uncertainty", to be honest. But I can easily believe that the Crucible's design showed by itself that it would do "bad" to the Reapers, even lacking a main "part" that would render it efficient on a "Galactic" scale. I tried to find the part where Mordin comments on the Crucible after joining the taskforce, but I found nothing, only references. Up until the end, I thought the Crucible would be some kind of huge gun, and learning along the way it lacked a "Catalyst" and not knowing anything more made the quality of the intrigue go down to places I rarely go...

Working with the keepers is VERY different then working with the catalyst.

The catalsyt is the main part of the crucible people. To even begin to develop the crucible you NEED to understand the catalsyt and what it does because the catalsyt is the very thing makes it work.

Definition: A catalyst is a subtance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction by reducing the activation energy, but which is left unchanged by the reaction.

[KevShep]

Sundance31us wrote...

@KevShep

What is that image from?

its from the story leak that happend before ME3 release.