Iconoclaste wrote...
How would a "sleeping Shepard" achieve that?SauliusL wrote...
A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.
KevShep wrote...
The Grey Nayr wrote...
liggy002 wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
What would a "sleeping Shepard" do to help the Reapers? And I wrote this on the previous page also : Shepard "waking up" indoctrinated and trying to convince the Alliance to "stop attacking the Reapers" would anything like this make sense at that point in the war? If Shepard never wakes up, what's the difference with having him dead, except that the Reapers just took unnecessary risks?liggy002 wrote...
Why don't you ask Bioware that too? The Reapers wanted Shepard. Harbinger wanted his body and he attempted to indoctrinate him in Arrival. Harbinger even tells Shepard that his mind will be his. The Reapers love to indoctrinate miliatary leaders, they are a great asset to their war effort and extremely dangerous. Remember Saren? Multiply that times 1000 and you have Commander Shepard, probably the greatest miliatary leader ever. Shepard just isn't any regular Joe.
You can't compare Saren with Shepard, Saren didn't have all the Reapers destroying worlds around him, making it very unlikely for Saren to convince anyone that the "Reapers were good" or anything in that line of thoughts. So again, at that point in the war, what "use" do the Reapers need Shepard for, that prevented them from killing him in the first place?
Again, that's a question for Bioware since they were going to make a sequence in which Shepard was indoctrinated.
I'd like to see proof of that statement. And I mean a link to the exact place where an actual Bioware developer said it, not just because you say they were.
Also I note the past tense. Meaning even if they were, things changed.
The Grey Nayr wrote...
I said a link, not something even I could type up in a paint program.
Also that sounds similar to the Pariah/Adjutant, which was supposed to have the power to seize control of its enemies motor functions, along with teleportation. Its game mechanics overloaded the physics engine and had to be scrapped
Also even if they did say that, they also said it was dropped. Scrapped ideas don't constitute anything other than what they decided not to do.
DOn't serve me this retarded "Catalyst" lesson, please, everybody here went through second grade chemistry.KevShep wrote...
Working with the keepers is VERY different then working with the catalyst.
The catalsyt is the main part of the crucible people. To even begin to develop the crucible you NEED to understand the catalsyt and what it does because the catalsyt is the very thing makes it work.
Definition: A catalyst is a subtance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction by reducing the activation energy, but which is left unchanged by the reaction.
KevShep wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
How would a "sleeping Shepard" achieve that?SauliusL wrote...
A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.
A sleeping shep woudnt. An indoctrinated shep would however.
Iconoclaste wrote...
DOn't serve me this retarded "Catalyst" lesson, please, everybody here went through second grade chemistry.KevShep wrote...
Working with the keepers is VERY different then working with the catalyst.
The catalsyt is the main part of the crucible people. To even begin to develop the crucible you NEED to understand the catalsyt and what it does because the catalsyt is the very thing makes it work.
Definition: A catalyst is a subtance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction by reducing the activation energy, but which is left unchanged by the reaction.
If the Citadel is to be used as a "computer" to run the "Crucible code" then the 'purpose' of the "Catalyst" can be foreshadowed by designing the Crucible. If you prefer another analogy, an engine with obvious fixtures on it calling for appropriate "port" to deliver its torque into can be built without knowing what the missing part looks like. The Alliance was not running a business for profits, they were crossing their fingers on something they "knew" would work, but just couldn't get the "whole picture". Since it's a videogame, and not an elaborate scientific documentary, the players may not need much more than this to believe the story, simply put. ANd after seeing the Crucible at work (a simple beam of whitish light coming off the tip), no wonder they could design it without needing to put the whole rig on a working bench. This aspect of the game could have been polished a bit more, because it only causes the players to question Hackett's sanity, in my view...
The Grey Nayr wrote...
KevShep wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
How would a "sleeping Shepard" achieve that?SauliusL wrote...
A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.
A sleeping shep woudnt. An indoctrinated shep would however.
Except that Shepard is never "believing in Reapers goals." When Shepard takes control, he doesn't slaughter all life in the galaxy and harvest their techn to commit Reaperduction(lol too easy.) He uses the Reapers to make life better for everyone. The Antithesis of what the Reapers want.
Synthesis is a mutually beneficial agreement between Shep and the Reapers, but only because, by Leviathan's own words, it's looking for the ideal solution to the problem they asked it to solve. When a solution better than its own presents itself, it is obligated to go for it.
If Indoctrrination were in play at all, Shepard would want to go for destroy or control, but would either be doing nothing at all, or jumping into the laser against his will. Since stripping free will is the first and foremost symptom. The very fact that you can choose whichever of the four possible outcomes is undeniable, since the reaper's cant exactly impair our real minds..
IT clearly says that Shepard only wakes up in "destroy" ending, whereas in the other two he's done.KevShep wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
How would a "sleeping Shepard" achieve that?SauliusL wrote...
A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.
A sleeping shep woudnt. An indoctrinated shep would however.
Iconoclaste wrote...
IT clearly says that Shepard only wakes up in "destroy" ending, whereas in the other two he's done.KevShep wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
How would a "sleeping Shepard" achieve that?SauliusL wrote...
A tricked Shepard, believing in Reapers goals by his own will, would at least crush the morality of all the galaxy army. Not to mention it could mean a much easier and faster end of the cycle.
A sleeping shep woudnt. An indoctrinated shep would however.
While "sleeping", Shepard is not very different from being dead. Do you really believe Bioware would have the story tell that Shepard wakes up with war raging around him, and start preaching the virtues of the Reapers, then "Critical Mission Failure" screen? If they got severely criticized for the actual, pre-EC endings, how do you think such a "plot twist" would be received?
Now, imagine the Reapers : are they dumb to the point of believing Shepard could be of any use to them in an attempt to "crush morale" while they are already waging open war? This is like having an hostage send a message to his family : do you think the Family will suddenly abandon hope? "Ho, look! It's Shepard! What's he saying? Reapers are what? The good guys, and invincible? Gosh, this is depressing. Let's surrender."
Is this, seriously, the reason why the Reapers would keep Shepard alive? The whole "Crucible" attempt will simply be abandoned, the soldiers will retreat underground playing cards waiting for doom, because Shepard said nonsense on tv? Frankly, if I was Bioware, I would dive for this.... But why don't they?
Eterna5 wrote...
IT isn't true, therefore your silly argument is invalid.
The Catalyst is not the "center" of the Crucible, it is merely an "extension", an "output", a "put the Catalyst there and press fire" on the plan. Like I wrote, the Alliance didn't project to sell the Crucible with a "service contract" but it was taking its chance, based on lots of expert's advices. I agree the game didn't tell us a lot, and had us running around a lot for parts and springs, and the whole idea was unpleasant but, hey, the Admiral says it's OK, would Shepard not trust this superior officer? What makes everything "believable" in the "Crucible adventure" is this simple fact : it is not Shepard's responsibility to know "everything" about the Crucible and its construction, he has to trust the specialists, the Protheans, his superiors. Are they all dumb? Indoctrinated? Foolish?KevShep wrote...
You dont design something around something else that you have no knowladge of and expect it to work. thats like knowing the answer before you know that the problem is. the catalyst is the center of the crucible and MUST be known if you are designing it.
Iconoclaste wrote...
The Catalyst is not the "center" of the Crucible, it is merely an "extension", an "output", a "put the Catalyst there and press fire" on the plan. Like I wrote, the Alliance didn't project to sell the Crucible with a "service contract" but it was taking its chance, based on lots of expert's advices. I agree the game didn't tell us a lot, and had us running around a lot for parts and springs, and the whole idea was unpleasant but, hey, the Admiral says it's OK, would Shepard not trust this superior officer? What makes everything "believable" in the "Crucible adventure" is this simple fact : it is not Shepard's responsibility to know "everything" about the Crucible and its construction, he has to trust the specialists, the Protheans, his superiors. Are they all dumb? Indoctrinated? Foolish?KevShep wrote...
You dont design something around something else that you have no knowladge of and expect it to work. thats like knowing the answer before you know that the problem is. the catalyst is the center of the crucible and MUST be known if you are designing it.
Eterna5 wrote...
Riddle me this.
How could Protheans create the option of controlling the Reapers if they didn't even know who or what the Catalyst was? Near the end of their Cycle they hadn't been on the citadel for generations.
Yalision wrote...
I'd may as well go around speculating that the breath scene is the death breath of Shep as the vacuum of space opens up on the top of the damaged Citadel - oops! =)
KevShep wrote...
Yalision wrote...
I'd may as well go around speculating that the breath scene is the death breath of Shep as the vacuum of space opens up on the top of the damaged Citadel - oops! =)
There was air there so it had to be london...or bad writing.
Modifié par Yalision, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:12 .
Yalision wrote...
KevShep wrote...
Yalision wrote...
I'd may as well go around speculating that the breath scene is the death breath of Shep as the vacuum of space opens up on the top of the damaged Citadel - oops! =)
There was air there so it had to be london...or bad writing.
Nope. Shepard is exposed and is standing in open space when he is talking to the Catalyst. Go back and look. That's not a glass dome, it's spaaaaace. The exact tip of the presidium where the Crucible meets. And that's not concrete, there are now-ancient videos on youtube showing that the textures of the Citadel and the textures of the breath scene match 100%. Sorry to disappoint you.
Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:27 .
Just adding this : for its main "destroy" purpose, the Catalyst isn't required at all, unless you suggest that he will "help" Shepard by activating the Crucible's destructive systems...KevShep wrote...
They have no choice but to trust the plans.
Second, the catalyst is more then the guy that talks to you. He is the inelligence that is working all the gears of the crucible and is the center point of it all. Without the catalyst the crucible does nothing at all no matter what button you push.
Modifié par Iconoclaste, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:28 .
Iconoclaste wrote...
The "Catalyst" you learn about in the end is not the "Catalyst" the prothean VI talks about : the VI refers to the Citadel : codename "Catalyst". The "intelligence" can't even open the Citadel's arms for Saren, but a simple janitor could push the button, because the Protheans tampered with the systems to prevent the usual Reaper plan from happening. From there, no need to believe the Protheans couldn't understand "anything" about the "Citadel", as a matter of fact they even succeeded in integrating its "known" part into the desing of a powerful "weapon" against the Reapers. From the game, we see a simple "beam of light" coming out of the Crucible's tip, and no doubt the alliance specialist's inferred that there was no need to know how part B was designed if, according to the Prothean plans, the Crucible only needed to "shoot the light beam into opening X of device B (Citadel) from Y distance, at Z angle". The protheans knew that the Keepers sent a signal to the Reapers, and opened a relay to deep space. They knew the Reapers used the Citadel to manage the relay system, so they just as well might have known how to use this "knowledge" to design a system using "Reaper technology against themselves".KevShep wrote...
They have no choice but to trust the plans.
Second, the catalyst is more then the guy that talks to you. He is the inelligence that is working all the gears of the crucible and is the center point of it all. Without the catalyst the crucible does nothing at all no matter what button you push.
The "intelligence" was, during 3 games, "at best" an impotent witness to all events, and instead of simply witnessing the crucial instant in all the cycles up to now, he simply talked to Shepard. Up to that moment, he was totally useless, in fact. Maybe he helped move the Citadel to Earth and turn the conduit on, but that's all he did, from what we're shown. Could he "operate all Citadel's systems"? If so, why leaving Sovereign outside? Why didn't he open the relay to deep space? This is sufficient to support the issue of protheans having good knowledge of the Citadel, enough to use it against the Reapers. And if, like IT suggested at some point, the "Catalyst" is "Harbinger", then he just couldn't be part of the "Crucible design" and was left outside like Sovereign. Maybe TIM helped with some Citadel things (get it to Earth and activate Beam?)...
Anyway, it's been fun debating this, but I need to get some sleep now.
Iconoclaste wrote...
Just adding this : for its main "destroy" purpose, the Catalyst isn't required at all, unless you suggest that he will "help" Shepard by activating the Crucible's destructive systems...KevShep wrote...
They have no choice but to trust the plans.
Second, the catalyst is more then the guy that talks to you. He is the inelligence that is working all the gears of the crucible and is the center point of it all. Without the catalyst the crucible does nothing at all no matter what button you push.
Iconoclaste wrote...
Iconoclaste wrote...
Just adding this : for its main "destroy" purpose, the Catalyst isn't required at all, unless you suggest that he will "help" Shepard by activating the Crucible's destructive systems...KevShep wrote...
They have no choice but to trust the plans.
Second, the catalyst is more then the guy that talks to you. He is the inelligence that is working all the gears of the crucible and is the center point of it all. Without the catalyst the crucible does nothing at all no matter what button you push.
Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:35 .
No, just climb back a few pages, this was discussed earlier. It may more believably be a "Citadel" potential than a "part of the Crucible" : Control and Synthesis "by-products" already Reaper-Citadel capability, only "augmented / optimized" by adding the power of the Crucible. This is something brought about by the "intelligence", not by the "Crucible".KevShep wrote...
the catalyst controls the reapers. therefor they must have knowledge of the catalyst inorder to make the crucible.
Point is a reaper or reaper controled device that is the catalsyt. To know the catalyst is to know the reapers
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