247 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

the catalyst controls the reapers. therefor they must have knowledge of the catalyst inorder to make the crucible.

Point is a reaper or reaper controled device that is the catalsyt. To know the catalyst is to know the reapers 

No, just climb back a few pages, this was discussed earlier. It may more believably be a "Citadel" potential than a "part of the Crucible" : Control and Synthesis "by-products" already Reaper-Citadel capability, only "augmented / optimized" by adding the power of the Crucible. This is something brought about by the "intelligence", not by the "Crucible".

I know, the crucible is only the power sorce not the actions it makes. that is the job of the catalsyt.

[DarkSeraphym]

KevShep wrote...

the catalyst controls the reapers. therefor they must have knowledge of the catalyst inorder to make the crucible.

Point is a reaper or reaper controled device that is the catalsyt. To know the catalyst is to know the reaper.

 

I'm not certain your conclusion flows from your premise. What Icono is saying is that the Catalyst, as an entity, changes a total of three times throughout the course of the game. First, it is understood to be a component of the Crucible that is missing. Second, it is then understood to be the Citadel itself. Finally, we discover that the Catalyst is actually a bit more than the Citadel itself. The Catalyst itself admits that the Citadel is not just its home, it is a part of it entirely. As far as we can tell, with regards to the Citadel, it is fairly impotent. It might be capable of controlling the Reaper forces, but even the Catalyst admits that while the Crucible offered new possibilities, it is completely powerless from being able to do anything on its own. Personally, that entire scene left me wondering why the conversation was even relevant beyond being exposition to explain all of the questions that were still left over. The Catalyst cannot actually aid or intefere in your ability to use the Crucible, beyond sending the Reapers to destroy it (which seems to be what happens if you reject his options). That leads me to side with Icono on this matter and to assume that knowledge of the greater implications behind the Catalyst really are not that relevant.

Besides, if you will allow me to put on my tin-foil hat for a moment, we do know of a single organic entity that has knowledge of the true existence of the Catalysts: the Leviathan. This question has been brought up elsewhere in this thread, but how do we know they are not the ones to "root out" the idea in the first place?

[Iconoclaste]

KevShep wrote...

he is required. he is what is making the crucible work in the first place.

Edit: they said "we need something called the catalsyt to make it work".

You're starting to sound like a robot now. I think you're alone in this corner, I'm not going any further and repeating myself again on this.

Good night.

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

he is required. he is what is making the crucible work in the first place.

Edit: they said "we need something called the catalsyt to make it work".

You're starting to sound like a robot now. I think you're alone in this corner, I'm not going any further and repeating myself again on this.

Good night.

good night.

[KevShep]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

KevShep wrote...

the catalyst controls the reapers. therefor they must have knowledge of the catalyst inorder to make the crucible.

Point is a reaper or reaper controled device that is the catalsyt. To know the catalyst is to know the reaper.

 

I'm not certain your conclusion flows from your premise. What Icono is saying is that the Catalyst, as an entity, changes a total of three times throughout the course of the game. First, it is understood to be a component of the Crucible that is missing. Second, it is then understood to be the Citadel itself. Finally, we discover that the Catalyst is actually a bit more than the Citadel itself. The Catalyst itself admits that the Citadel is not just its home, it is a part of it entirely. As far as we can tell, with regards to the Citadel, it is fairly impotent. It might be capable of controlling the Reaper forces, but even the Catalyst admits that while the Crucible offered new possibilities, it is completely powerless from being able to do anything on its own. Personally, that entire scene left me wondering why the conversation was even relevant beyond being exposition to explain all of the questions that were still left over. The Catalyst cannot actually aid or intefere in your ability to use the Crucible, beyond sending the Reapers to destroy it (which seems to be what happens if you reject his options). That leads me to side with Icono on this matter and to assume that knowledge of the greater implications behind the Catalyst really are not that relevant.

Besides, if you will allow me to put on my tin-foil hat for a moment, we do know of a single organic entity that has knowledge of the true existence of the Catalysts: the Leviathan. This question has been brought up elsewhere in this thread, but how do we know they are not the ones to "root out" the idea in the first place?

Thats kind of what Ive been saying...

Ive been saying that if organics designed the crucible then they would know what the catalyst is. You cant design something by knowing only bits and pieces. Its like knowing half the problem but already having the answer.

The catalyst is the biggest part of the whole thing, you have to know what it is.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[DarkSeraphym]

KevShep wrote...

Thats kind of what Ive been saying...

Ive been saying that if organics designed the crucible then they would know what the catalyst is. You cant design something by knowing only bits and pieces. Its like knowing half the problem but already having the answer.

The catalyst is the biggest part of the whole thing, you have to know what it is.

The thing is, the Citadel is only a part of the Catalyst and there simply is not enough information coming from the game to infer just how relevant the "rest of it" really is. Your arguments rest upon the inference that the whole is entirely necessary and I am not confident that we have enough evidence to suggest that is the case. In fact, the evidence that we do have points us in the direction that the intelligence is not quite as relevant as the Citadel's status as the hub of the Mass Relay Network. As I said, the intelligence cannot aid or interfere with your ability to make a choice in the slightest. Assuming it had wanted you to choose Synthesis or Control as opposed to destroy, and assuming it was the most important asset of the Crucible, it should be within reason that it has the ability to stop you from choosing Destroy. Does it to so? Nope. It sits back and watches you do it anyway. Just like it also sits back and lets you make no decision at all, because it cannot make them happen on its own.

The greater part of Icono's argument is that we need to separate the terms "Catalyst" and "intelligence" from one another because they are not one in the same. The Catalyst represents a greater relationship between the Citadel and the artificial intelligence that exists on that platform. Once again, I point you to the piece of dialogue that says "The Citadel is part of me" that follows the piece that says "The Citadel is my home". It's not just the platform that carries the Catalyst, the Citadel is a portion of the Catalyst itself. Now if we separate them, this leaves us to question exactly how relevant the artificial intelligence is to the ability of the Crucible to fire? Is the Citadel the primary component that is needed, or is it the artificial intelligence? From what information I gathered in the game, there really is not enough information from that 15 minute sequence to know with 100% certainty. However, I do question the importance of the artificial intelligence portion of the Catalyst because it literally admits to you that it is in no position to do anything on its own. As I stated above, it cannot help you make a decision and it cannot interfere with whatever decision you opt to make. So why is it necessarily relevant that organics understand the entirity of the Catalyst in order to use the Crucible, particularly a component that does not appear to exist for reasons beyond exposition or offering a greater explanation to how the Reapers work, which is also not really relevant to making the Crucible fire?

Besides, I strongly doubt that the Reapers would have implanted the idea of the Crucible. Sure it would make sense to trick the races into a lost cause, but clearly the cause was not lost. The Illusive Man tells the Reapers that you may have discovered what the Catalyst is and they move the Citadel. Not only do they move it, but they also lock its arms shut. This, to me anyway, implies fear. If the Reapers were going to hand off an idea to the lesser races, one would hope that it would be one that would not work even if it could be built.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 30 septembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[KevShep]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thats kind of what Ive been saying...

Ive been saying that if organics designed the crucible then they would know what the catalyst is. You cant design something by knowing only bits and pieces. Its like knowing half the problem but already having the answer.

The catalyst is the biggest part of the whole thing, you have to know what it is.

The thing is, the Citadel is only a part of the Catalyst and there simply is not enough information coming from the game to infer just how relevant the "rest of it" really is. Your arguments rest upon the inference that the whole is entirely necessary and I am not confident that we have enough evidence to suggest that is the case. In fact, the evidence that we do have points us in the direction that the intelligence is not quite as relevant as the Citadel's status as the hub of the Mass Relay Network. As I said, the intelligence cannot aid or interfere with your ability to make a choice in the slightest. Assuming it had wanted you to choose Synthesis or Control as opposed to destroy, and assuming it was the most important asset of the Crucible, it should be within reason that it has the ability to stop you from choosing Destroy. Does it to so? Nope. It sits back and watch you do it anyway. Just like it also sits back and lets you make no decision at all, because it cannot make them happen on its own.

The greater part of Icono's argument is that we need to separate the terms "Catalyst" and "intelligence" from one another because they are not one in the same. The Catalyst represents a greater relationship between the Citadel and the artificial intelligence that exists on that platform. Once again, I point you to the piece of dialogue that says "The Citadel is part of me" that follows the piece that says "The Citadel is my home". It's not just the platform that carries the Catalyst, the Citadel is a portion of the Catalyst itself. Now if we separate them, this leaves us to question exactly how relevant the artificial intelligence is to the ability of the Crucible to fire? Is the Citadel the primary component that is needed, or is it the artificial intelligence? From what information I gathered in the game, there really is not enough information from that 15 minute sequence to know with 100% certainty. However, I do question the importance of the artificial intelligence portion of the Catalyst because it literally admits to you that it is in no position to do anything on its own. As I stated above, it cannot help you make a decision and it cannot interfere with whatever decision you opt to make.

I understand what your saying and thank you for taking the time to explain that.  Now let me explaine it a little from my view.

Its no question that all of this is the most advanced undertaking of tech ever made(understanding the catalyst is a huge piece at that). With that being said I know that the catalsyt and the citadel are different however in understanding how to build that crucible and what you want out of it you need to have a goal. That goal is to use the relays to hinder the reapers as they hinder us with them in the past. In order for this to happen you need to know how the relays work (that in itself is a huge undertaking as well). After that you need a power source (crucible) since the citadel does not have the power you need or the programing. Next you need a connection between the two.

That connection is the catalsyt. We know that the crucible did NOT have the catalyst with the design so that means that its somthing we(organics) did not make. They (the ones that made the plans) had to have known what it was and "WHERE" it was or they could have just made one and put it within the plans. This means that its not JUST a catalyst but that it was something else as well or they could have made one on there own. They had to have known that it was not "what" it was but "who" it was.

Something as complicated  and as massive as the crucible/citadel connection thing needs to be understood at ALL angles.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[DarkSeraphym]

KevShep wrote...

I understand what your saying and thank you for taking the time to explain that.  Now let me explaine it a little from my view.

Its no question that all of this is the most advanced undertaking of tech ever made(understanding the catalyst is a huge piece at that). With that being said I know that the catalsyt and the citadel are different however in understanding how to build that crucible and what you want out of it you need to have a goal. That goal is to use the relays to hinder the reapers as they hinder us with them in the past. In order for this to happen you need to know how the relays work (that in itself is a huge undertaking as well). After that you need a power source (crucible) since the citadel does not have the power you need or the programing. Next you need a connection between the two.

That connection is the catalsyt. We know that the crucible did NOT have the catalyst with the design so that means that its somthing we(organics) did not make. They (the ones that made the plans) had to have known what it was and "WHERE" it was or they could have just made one and put it within the plans. This means that its not JUST a catalyst but that it was something else as well or they could have made one on there own. They had to have known that it was not "what" it was but "who" it was.

Something as complicated  and as massive as the crucible/citadel connection thing needs to be understood at ALL angles.

No problem Kev. Please back up for a moment though. I ask that you please use the term "Catalyst" to refer to the Citadel + artificial intelligence collective, while using the term "the artificial intelligence" to refer to it separately. The reason that I ask you to do so is because it is much easier to comprehend your meaning if we can agree on the same terminology. Now, if you are meaning the former, my problem with your inferences is that there is simply not enough information to base them off of. We know that there is a greater relationship between the Citadel and the artificial intelligence, but there is not enough information in the game to truly understand it. Unfortunately, this is one of the points in which BioWare needed to understand that because of where the context falls in timing within the game, there was no ability to discuss it in the codex. Now you and I are left here to pick up the pieces that are left behind. Alas, I do not think you and I know enough to make some of these types of inferences. Perhaps BioWare, through future products, will elaborate on these huge pieces that needed to be added into the puzzle. For now, you and I could spend all day speculating on this point, but in the end it will only ever be speculation until BioWare fills in the gaps, if it does so period.

Now if we turn to the artificial intelligence exclusively, I'm still not certain we can call it that connection. As I noted, the AI admits it cannot actually make the Crucible work. It is entirely up to Shepard to initiate it and if the AI is supposed to be that connection, I would argue it is in a hard position to do that when it cannot even make the Crucible work on its own. Likewise, I think it was even you who brought this up, but if the artificial intelligence has free reign of the Citadel and the Mass Relay network, what was the point of Sovereign to begin with? Either BioWare found itself in a literary hole through which it could not escape without generating huge inconsistencies, or I think it is safe to say from these two bits of information that the artificial intelligence is a little more isolated than it would like us to believe. Keep in mind, the Keepers were supposed to be its eyes and ears until the signal was tampered with. I doubt the artificial intelligence necessary had more "hardline" channels through which it could do these same things because, clearl,y the artificial intelligence was in no position to let the Reapers in from dark space in Mass Effect. If this is the case, I still doubt the necessity of understanding the artificial intelligence to actually building the Crucible because it does not seem to be nearly as "wired" into the Citadel as EDI is to the Normandy.

What I will give you is a bigger question to ask here is less about having to know about the existence of the Catalyst and more about how did they know exactly where the sexed connectors went. How did they know exactly how to line everything up with a portion of the Citadel no one had ever walked on? How did they know that there were connections on the Citadel itself that would allow for a Destroy or Control option directly? Who knows. I'm going to chock this one up as shoddy writing because I am of the personal belief that the Indoctrination Theory, or at least the reasons for believing it, is dead. Perhaps we could argue that the Leviathan had a great deal to do with conceiving of the Crucible. They knew of the existence of the AI and given what remains of their network, perhaps they at one time knew the answers to those questions. They do isolate themselves for their own survival, but given that they have killed Reapers in the past, I think it is quite clear that they are doing what it takes to survive. Perhaps the reason they even argued with Shepard is because they conceived of it and its consistent failure to work only furthered their desire to isolate themselves, as they believed it was a lost cause based on precedent. Who knows. All that I am saying is that I do not think some of your inferences are necessarily as obvious as you suggest them to be, especially when we are arguing about one of the very few things in the Mass Effect universe that was given pretty much no context whatsoever by the Codex.

In the end, I think you and I can agree that it would be awesome if BioWare could elaborate on some of these important questions that still remain. As you noted, it needs to be understood from all angles. Unfortunately, not only do the characters in the game short of the artificial intelligence fail to understand them, but we are being left just as much in the dark.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[Gerbil Fetus]

KevShep wrote...

Thats kind of what Ive been saying...

Ive been saying that if organics designed the crucible then they would know what the catalyst is. You cant design something by knowing only bits and pieces. Its like knowing half the problem but already having the answer.

The catalyst is the biggest part of the whole thing, you have to know what it is.

1)I think that maybe the Crucible design would have been built at some point by some Species that knew what the Catalyst truly was, or at least the very nature of the Citatel, Much the same way this Cycle discovered the Keepers role.
However this information was lost in one of the many cycles.
how did these people discover the Catalyst? maybe the leviathans told them? maybe they just figurd it out on their own? maybe it was a theorised thing, based on something they learned from their Cylces war with the reapers?

we dont know. all we know is that at some point SOMEONE put the catalyst into the design, and they may or may not have known what it really was.

2) As for the Control/ destroy and Synthesis deployment methods (the "buttons" shepard has to push to trigger the particular endings)

The citadel, despite being a centre of galactic government is still quite mysterious. and things within it are still unknown, such as the locations of where keepers come from, exactly how it does all its functions, or that it can be uded as a Mass Relay to a reciever in Darkspace somewhere.

I get the impression its actually somewhat like GladOS controlling the Aperture Science Labs...and as soon as the Crucible docks, the Intelligence/Catalyst/Star-Child builds the methods, based on how it's perception/ability has been altered by the addition of the Crucible.

[KevShep]

DarkSeraphym @

Bioware does need to do ALOT of explaining.

The designers of the crucible would know that the catalsyt is an AI right? My point still is, wouldnt that turn a few head into thinking that its a trap reguardless what state its in?

The catalyst says that he cant make it happen (meaning the choices) but he did not say that he doesnt make the crucible work. The prothean VI said that the catalyst is what makes the crucible work.

With tech as big as the crucible no information is irrelivent in reguards to the center piece of the puzzle we call the catalyst. If we are trusting the AI (catalyst) then we better know everything about it first.

Like you said Bioware needs some explaning as well as whole new game to fix everything.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[KevShep]

Gerbil Fetus wrote...


[


I get the impression its actually somewhat like GladOS controlling the Aperture Science Labs...and as soon as the Crucible docks, the Intelligence/Catalyst/Star-Child builds the methods, based on how it's perception/ability has been altered by the addition of the Crucible.

You would have to know that the catalyst (AI) does this. If you know that it does this then you need to understand it more before you put your faith in it and also in order to understand how to use it.

Modifié par KevShep, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[DarkSeraphym]

KevShep wrote...

With tech as big as the crucible no information is irrelivent in reguards to the center piece of the puzzle we call the catalyst. If we are trusting the AI (catalyst) then we better know everything about it first.

Under most circumstances, I would agree with this point. However, the entire game is completely based upon the premise that organics know very little about it. The term "crucible" means "a great test." In Mass Effect 3, this great test is the drive of organics to take a complete leap of faith. However, the galaxy lies in ruins and the Intelligence seems to understand a bit more about the Crucible than Shepard does anyway. It is not like BioWare presents you with many options. Either you trust the Intelligence and you make a choice, or you reject the choices altogether and lose. Assuming you don't have the EC, your only alternative is to put the controller down and leave the room. However, doing so will give you a Critical Mission Failure. No matter what, making absolutely any of the three choices beyond rejection requires faith that the Intelligence is telling the truth.

The only reason for which knowledge of the entire function of the Catalyst matters is to us, the players, so that we can have a greater appreciation for the lore. For Shepard and the universe as a whole, I do not think it matters. If they were at all concerned that the Catalyst could be trusted, their first concern should have been that the Crucible would have worked period. You've got to make the best out of an otherwise bad situation. I'd even argue that an even larger concern is how to make the Crucible work at all. Once it was connected, Hackett and Shepard did not seem to have the slightest clue how to make it work. I think concerns regarding the honesty of the Intelligence should have been very secondary to questions of whether or not the Crucible was even going to work, or how to make it work period.

Honestly, I believe these points are even stronger evidence that shoddy writing was the culprit here. It is kind of strange that organics knew some of the extranneous details, but why would these details even matter if you do not know what the Crucible even does or how to make it work period? No offense Kev, but I just find it a little silly that you played a game in which your character was railroaded into putting immense amounts of faith into a project that has consistently failed everytime it has been used in the past, but cannot fathom putting a little faith into the Intelligence at the end of the road. Maybe you do have these complaints and just have not vocalized them. Maybe you sat in front of your television or monitor and got upset when options were not provided to show that Shepard was less than optimistic about the possibility that the Crucible would work at all. I'm not the kind of person that carries around tons of faith or optimism, but I have to admit that in those same circumstances I see no reason why trusting the Intelligence could lead to worse possibilities than already exist. The Galatic Fleet has already been spent by this point. There are no second chances. Go big or go home.

Anyhow, I implore you, KevShep, to take a look at The Twilight God's posts to see why I believe the Intelligence was never necessary to using the Crucible. I disagree with him on quite a few other theories, primarily much of the Deception Theory, but I think they did a good job of summarizing them on that count.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[shepskisaac]

Pick Control -> fast forward couple thousands years into Stargazer scene. DO you see the Galaxy in ruin/terror? Nope? Exactly

[Gerbil Fetus]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

KevShep wrote...

With tech as big as the crucible no information is irrelivent in reguards to the center piece of the puzzle we call the catalyst. If we are trusting the AI (catalyst) then we better know everything about it first.

Under most circumstances, I would agree with this point. However, the entire game is completely based upon the premise that organics know very little about it. The term "crucible" means "a great test." In Mass Effect 3, this great test is the drive of organics to take a complete leap of faith. However, the galaxy lies in ruins and the Intelligence seems to understand a bit more about the Crucible than Shepard does anyway. It is not like BioWare presents you with many options. Either you trust the Intelligence and you make a choice, or you reject the choices altogether and lose. Assuming you don't have the EC, your only alternative is to put the controller down and leave the room. However, doing so will give you a Critical Mission Failure. No matter what, making absolutely any of the three choices beyond rejection requires faith that the Intelligence is telling the truth.

The only reason for which knowledge of the entire function of the Catalyst matters is to us, the players, so that we can have a greater appreciation for the lore. For Shepard and the universe as a whole, I do not think it matters. If they were at all concerned that the Catalyst could be trusted, their first concern should have been that the Crucible would have worked period. You've got to make the best out of an otherwise bad situation. I'd even argue that an even larger concern is how to make the Crucible work at all. Once it was connected, Hackett and Shepard did not seem to have the slightest clue how to make it work. I think concerns regarding the honesty of the Intelligence should have been very secondary to questions of whether or not the Crucible was even going to work, or how to make it work period.

Honestly, I believe these points are even stronger evidence that shoddy writing was the culprit here. It is kind of strange that organics knew some of the extranneous details, but why would these details even matter if you do not know what the Crucible even does or how to make it work period? No offense Kev, but I just find it a little silly that you played a game in which your character was railroaded into putting immense amounts of faith into a project that has consistently failed everytime it has been used in the past, but cannot fathom putting a little faith into the Intelligence at the end of the road. Maybe you do have these complaints and just have not vocalized them. Maybe you sat in front of your television or monitor and got upset when options were not provided to show that Shepard was less than optimistic about the possibility that the Crucible would work at all. I'm not the kind of person that carries around tons of faith or optimism, but I have to admit that in those same circumstances I see no reason why trusting the Intelligence could lead to worse possibilities than already exist. The Galatic Fleet has already been spent by this point. There are no second chances. Go big or go home.

We know that the current cycle, (and the Protheans in charge of their own Crucible project)  only knew that the Citadel was needed and, all they had to do was dock it to the citadel station like they were forming a power ranger megazord.

The Current cycle is the only cycle to get so far in the development and Deployment of the Crucible. 

One COULD assume that the reason the damn thing does'nt immediately start firing its special beam cannon at the Reapers is because it is now connected to the previously unknown citadel AI/the Intelligence.
The intelligence, now a part of the Citadel-Crucible-Super-Megazord would easily have it within it's power to put a stop to the citadel's firing.
which is why they are all  "it must be something on your end."

the Intelligence went all "computer says no." on them.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The Catalyst lies about everything except your favourite ending.

This is established fact.

[Gerbil Fetus]

i also realised this:

according to the Intelligence it identifies itself as synonomous with the Citadel space station. thusly it is by default : Citadel=Catalyst, Catalyst= The Intelligence.
It doesnt mean that there had to be any knowledge of the citadel being home to an ancient AI that is creator of the reapers. Meaning that the Intelligence A.I was (likely) never in the Crucible plans at anypoint in time in any cycle.

The last ingredient to making the Crucible fire was the Reaper Fortress/Invasion Ground Zero for the reaping: the Citadel. its an ironic use of weaponry back against the reapers and a way to spread the weapons enegies throughout the Relay systems. Unfortunately it happend to be home of something that could stop the device from working.

[AlexMBrennan]

Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.

Wow, the Reapers prefer control to extinction! Who'd have thought that!

Seriously though, it doesn't logically follow from the Reapers preferring Control that Control is a trap - it preserves the "tools" and leaves an AI in charge of them (remember, Godchild didn't do genocide for the evulz but because though it the best solution for a problem; it's not inconceivable that Guardian 2.0, unburdened by human empathy and "common sense", will come to similar conclusions and continue their work)

[DarkSeraphym]

Gerbil Fetus wrote...

We know that the current cycle, (and the Protheans in charge of their own Crucible project)  only knew that the Citadel was needed and, all they had to do was dock it to the citadel station like they were forming a power ranger megazord.

The Current cycle is the only cycle to get so far in the development and Deployment of the Crucible. 

One COULD assume that the reason the damn thing does'nt immediately start firing its special beam cannon at the Reapers is because it is now connected to the previously unknown citadel AI/the Intelligence.
The intelligence, now a part of the Citadel-Crucible-Super-Megazord would easily have it within it's power to put a stop to the citadel's firing.
which is why they are all  "it must be something on your end."

the Intelligence went all "computer says no." on them.

The Twilight God postulates that this is precisely what is happening. The Intelligence is holding back the Crucible from firing as the only thing that was actually necessary was connecting it to the Citadel. Unfortunately, this idea results in more questions than answers. If the Intelligence had its way about things, and if it was truly interested only in "Reaping" as its only solution, I don't see why Shepard would have ever ended up on that platform in the first place. Keep in mind, the Intelligence was the one who even brought Shepard up to the platform. It did not have to do that. As we know, if you sit around long enough, you will get a Critical Mission Failure and its assumed this is because the Reapers have destroyed the Crucible. Some have argued that this is because the Intelligence is maintaining this option as a contingency option, but if that is the case, the Intelligence could have easily just sat back and watched the Reapers lay waste to the Crucible while Shepard remained in a fairly dismal state in front of that console.

Ultimately, we are dealing with two questions on this thread. The first is how much can we trust the Intelligence and the second is what kind of impact the Intelligence has on the Crucible. I agree with the Deception Theory in part that the Citadel was the only necessary component, and the Intelligence merely called itself the Catalyst because it knew Shepard was looking for it. The Intelligence admits it cannot help you, and it certainly doesn't try to interfere with you destroying them beyond sending Reapers to destroy the Crucible if you wait too long. if I am not mistaken, the Deception Theory also asserts that the reason the Crucible does not fire is because of hardwire restrictions that the Intelligence has put into place to prevent that from happening, which is why Shepard has to destroy something to set off Destroy. This would still mean that, in the end, the Intelligence isn't the one holding it back and it is hardware instead. However, I disagree with the Deception Theory on the idea that the Intelligence cannot be trusted in any fashion. As far as I can tell, the Intelligence was the one who invited Shepard up to speak with it when lifting him/her up on the platform in the first place. If the Control, Synthesis, and Destroy options are all options that the Intelligence, and thus the Reapers as a whole, view as inferior, why bother with it at all? It could have easily left him/her down there and bombarded the Crucible with the Reaper fleet.

Thus, I feel that the idea that the Intelligence is actively holding back the Crucible to be rather inconsistent. If it had that ability, why does it not interfere with what we see as "less appealing" options for the Reapers? Likewise, this ties into the question of can we trust it. If we cannot trust it and it is actively holding back the Crucible, I see no reason why it would have invited Shepard up at all. Clearly, I think the Intelligence would have been far more comfortable just continuing its harvesting solution in that case and I find it a little strange that would even allow Shepard the ability to activate the Crucible if it had those interests.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[Gerbil Fetus]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.

Wow, the Reapers prefer control to extinction! Who'd have thought that!

Seriously though, it doesn't logically follow from the Reapers preferring Control that Control is a trap - it preserves the "tools" and leaves an AI in charge of them (remember, Godchild didn't do genocide for the evulz but because though it the best solution for a problem; it's not inconceivable that Guardian 2.0, unburdened by human empathy and "common sense", will come to similar conclusions and continue their work)

I now see the Control sect of the cycles purly being the reapers using a "Divide and Conquer" tactic on the cycles inhabitants. It destabalises any retaliation efforts, just as how we see Cerberus for half the game doing.
This would only compound with the already divided systems (relays shut down)
The reasoning i think it shows up as an option in the end, is because Shepard has proven to be a better person at uniting the galaxy. The Intelligence's plan doesnt work so he's retiring like Zorro and letting Shep (potentially) be the new guy.

[DarkSeraphym]

Gerbil Fetus wrote...

I now see the Control sect of the cycles purly being the reapers using a "Divide and Conquer" tactic on the cycles inhabitants. It destabalises any retaliation efforts, just as how we see Cerberus for half the game doing.
This would only compound with the already divided systems (relays shut down)
The reasoning i think it shows up as an option in the end, is because Shepard has proven to be a better person at uniting the galaxy. The Intelligence's plan doesnt work so he's retiring like Zorro and letting Shep (potentially) be the new guy.

Call me a pessimist, but I think the only reason Control exists is because BioWare could not think of an alternative with the way they had the story written. Synthesis was supposed to be our big "twist" option. Control and Destroy were the only options that were hinted at throughout ME3's storyline. Plus, it would seem they wanted to tie the Collector Base decision into the endings and I think that keeping the Collector Base makes sense for the same reasons that the exact same Shepard could conclude it is best to keep the Reapers around in the Control ending and vice versa for Destroy. I think BioWare wanted to keep the two main options familiar and leave one surprise ending that came from pretty much nowhere.

This is actually quite off-topic, but I was hoping they'd do more with the Collector Base decision. I was far more interested in seeing how that played out than any other decision and I was pretty upset by the fact that it literally amounted to a 10 point difference and a difference between how easily you can get the best ending from a particular decision. Bummer.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[Gerbil Fetus]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Gerbil Fetus wrote...

I now see the Control sect of the cycles purly being the reapers using a "Divide and Conquer" tactic on the cycles inhabitants. It destabalises any retaliation efforts, just as how we see Cerberus for half the game doing.
This would only compound with the already divided systems (relays shut down)
The reasoning i think it shows up as an option in the end, is because Shepard has proven to be a better person at uniting the galaxy. The Intelligence's plan doesnt work so he's retiring like Zorro and letting Shep (potentially) be the new guy.

Call me a cynic or a pessimist, but I think the only reason Control exists is because BioWare could not think of an alternative with the way they had the story written. Synthesis was supposed to be our big "twist" option. Control and Destroy were the only options that were hinted at throughout ME3's storyline. Plus, it would seem they wanted to tie the Collector Base decision into the endings and I think that keeping the Collector Base makes sense for the same reasons that the exact same Shepard would conclude it is best to keep the Reapers around in the Control ending and vice versa for Destroy. I think BioWare wanted to keep the two main options familiar and leave one surprise ending that came from pretty much nowhere.

I'll concede that.

although i dont think there was really a need to think of an alternative for the "Control" motivation because:
Control also fits with the Totaitarian Humanism  in cerberus and the background fear that humans were power hungry ****s in ME1.
The running theread of Paragon/Renegade, Red/Blue is consistently present and the revelation of a choice that the synthesis choice is not like the others could simply be a twist ending. (robot Chicken M.Night Shayamalan:"what a twist!")
It's special and unique in that nature and required the most amount of work and effort to unlock.
aaaaand, like all ME endgame choices it is an interesting moral dilemma that needs to be solved by shepard.

[Fingertrip]

Why is it so hard for people to understand there's not going to be any content expanded upon the ending?

Like really, why are people so obsessed with it?

[Dean_the_Young]

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "

   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.

And? What's your point?

It's hard to explain something if you ramble on tangents that aren't supported.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.

Wow, the Reapers prefer control to extinction! Who'd have thought that!

Seriously though, it doesn't logically follow from the Reapers preferring Control that Control is a trap - it preserves the "tools" and leaves an AI in charge of them (remember, Godchild didn't do genocide for the evulz but because though it the best solution for a problem; it's not inconceivable that Guardian 2.0, unburdened by human empathy and "common sense", will come to similar conclusions and continue their work)

Actually, the quote is wrong: we aren't told that those who proposed that Control be added were indoctrinated at the time. We're just told that there was a schism, and the schisming faction was indoctrinated.

There's no given reason why the Protheans didn't pursue Control: had they chosen to, either the Reaper attempts at internal conflict would have failed (because the Protheans would have pursued a valid path for beating the Reapers), or the Reapers would have made the schism go the other way (an indoctrinated Destroy faction).

Either outcome, Destroy or Control, is bad for the Reapers. The point wasn't that the indoctrinated were after Control: the point was that there was a schism at all.

[Samtheman63]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

From Mass Effect and the Mass Effect Wiki:


"It is unknown who initially began the development of the Crucible. Countless different species obtained and made contributions to the design over the course of millions of years, but none successfully deployed it before being wiped out by the Reapers. The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. "

   Seperatists who wanted to Control the Reapers... this sounds like Cerberus and the Illusive Man.  Since those who proposed that Control be added on as a function of the Crucible were indoctrinated, then the Reapers clearly wanted this as an option.  Control is not a new solution as the Catalyst claims, he is obviously lying to you.  Also, consider that this was in a previous cycle and it was stated on Thessia that these cycles repeat themselves and are manipulated by the Catalyst.

  Since Control is an option on the Crucible, it is probable that the indoctrinated people killed off the opposition and built the Control option into the Crucible.  Control has always been a product of the indoctrinated.  Quite possibly Shepard is able to control the Reapers but maybe the Catalyst is able to manipulate him as he does this so that, in the end, Shepard thinks just like the Catalyst.  Shepard is a great miliatary leader, who better to have leading the Reapers than Shepard who now thinks like the Catalyst.

  Ashley even says in the game "sounds like history is repeating itself."  Cerberus comes along and screws things up when the right choice it to destroy the Reapers.  Oh, and the Prothean VI says that it is certain that the Catalysts intention is galactic annihilation.

And? What's your point?

It's hard to explain something if you ramble on tangents that aren't supported.

Indcontrinated TiM trys to convince Shepard control is the way forward

That means the reapers are trying to convince Shepard control is the right choice

what don't you get?  I can't make it any more simple