247 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Indcontrinated TiM trys to convince Shepard control is the way forward

That means the reapers are trying to convince Shepard control is the right choice

what don't you get?  I can't make it any more simple

You could start with how bending the Reapers to your will, turning them into your personal agents to fight only when you wish them to fight or blow themselves up otherwise, is a trap that shouldn't be sprung. Considering how it preserves more forms of life in the galaxy than Destroy, that end-state of being powerful is a moral hazard, not an existential threat.

Besides that TIM was moving towards Control before his indoctrination, something he wanted while indoctrinated doesn't mean the motivation came from the Reapers... or is even bad. Saren was indoctrinated, but even during so his desire was survival for the galaxy. It wasn't what the Reapers would do, but it remained his motivation before and after.


Something the Reapers or their indoctrinated pawns look positively on isn't something bad by default. Defining yourself as the antithesis of your enemies is foolishness, not wisdom.

[Samtheman63]

Destroy preserves all life in the galaxy and rids the galaxy of the reapers.

The reapers have killed trillions of people, squashed down their bodies and turned them into mobile death machines. Listening to any suggestion from the reapers is foolish, especially when we've known for 3 games that one of their best weapons is manipulating people.

Leaving them alive is too big of a risk, living along side them is even worse. No one in the right mind would be able to live with the reapers after what they have down, how on earth can you even begin to trust them? Don't they deserve to be punished?

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Something the Reapers or their indoctrinated pawns look positively on isn't something bad by default. Defining yourself as the antithesis of your enemies is foolishness, not wisdom.

"You think because I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics, that they're no longer my enemy?"

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

[AlanC9]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Leaving them alive is too big of a risk, living along side them is even worse. No one in the right mind would be able to live with the reapers after what they have down, how on earth can you even begin to trust them? Don't they deserve to be punished?

Do indoctrinated people deserve to be killed, even if you could cure them instead?

[DoomsdayDevice]

^ Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

There's no precedence for a cure in the games whatsoever.

In control and synthesis, you literally go ahead and "relinquish your form" to the Reapers, exactly like Harbinger said you would in ME2.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Lakeshow1986]

The sound of train on tracks accelerating tells me that Shepard is not in control. He/She even look like they're submitting to the ai construct.

[AlanC9]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

"You think because I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics, that they're no longer my enemy?"

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

The Allies adopted German tactics in WW2. That didn't mean they had turned into ****s.

[AlanC9]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

^ Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

There's no precedence for a cure in the games whatsoever.

In control and synthesis, you literally go ahead and "relinquish your form" to the Reapers, exactly like Harbinger said you would in ME2.

Control's no more likely to be a total lie than Destroy is. Less so, actually, since anyone who wanted to manipulate Shep into picking an option would surely dress that option up as Destroy.

[Dean_the_Young]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Something the Reapers or their indoctrinated pawns look positively on isn't something bad by default. Defining yourself as the antithesis of your enemies is foolishness, not wisdom.

"You think because I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics, that they're no longer my enemy?"

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated.

Ah, I see. You have forgotten that Indoctrination doesn't, in fact, exist.

Just to help you out, people outside of the video game who disagree with you are not indoctrinated.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

That defining yourself only as the antithesis of your enemy is foolishness?

Why yes. Yes I would. I'd have to be a moron not to.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlanC9 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

"You think because I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics, that they're no longer my enemy?"

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

The Allies adopted German tactics in WW2. That didn't mean they had turned into ****s.

The ****s used Guns.

We used Guns.

Therefore-

(Stupidity realized.)

[Dean_the_Young]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

^ Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

That's it's possible to control Reaper forces?

Since we can see proof of it on a variety of occassions...

There's no precedence for a cure in the games whatsoever.

The Leviathan DLC disagrees.

In control and synthesis, you literally go ahead and "relinquish your form" to the Reapers, exactly like Harbinger said you would in ME2.

Strange. My copy of ME3 has no ending in which Shepard becomes a 2 kilometer omnicidal robot squid.

Perhaps you are deluding something new?

[DoomsdayDevice]

AlanC9 wrote...

Control's no more likely to be a total lie than Destroy is. Less so, actually, since anyone who wanted to manipulate Shep into picking an option would surely dress that option up as Destroy.

Ah, but here's the thing:

If they wanted Shep to pick destroy, disguised as a trap, they would have only needed one option: a big red button that says 'destroy Reapers', because destroying the Reapers is what Shep always wanted to do.

So if destroy is supposed to be a trap, there would be no need for confusing the player with control and synthesis options.

The logical explanation is that the Crucible doesn't have these three abilities at all. It's all an illusion/battle inside Shepard's mind, (s)he isn't even on the Citadel.

The destroy option is there because it's the part of Shepard that wants to destroy the Reapers. If the option wasn't there, it would clue Shep in on the indoctrination attempt.

So if Shep picks destroy, nothing happens whatsoever. All that happens is that (s)he wakes up from the indoctrination attempt. The Reapers haven't lost anything, all they did was fail in indoctrinating Shepard.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Control's no more likely to be a total lie than Destroy is. Less so, actually, since anyone who wanted to manipulate Shep into picking an option would surely dress that option up as Destroy.

Ah, but here's the thing:

If they wanted Shep to pick destroy, disguised as a trap, they would have only needed one option: a big red button that says 'destroy Reapers', because destroying the Reapers is what Shep always wanted to do.

So if destroy is supposed to be a trap, there would be no need for confusing the player with control and synthesis options.

The same argument could be made of Control being a trap.

The logical explanation is that the Crucible doesn't have these three abilities at all. It's all an illusion inside Shepard's mind, he isn't even on the Citadel.

The destroy option is there because it's the part of Shepard that wants to destroy the Reapers. If the option wasn't there, it would clue Shep in on the indoctrination attempt.

So if Shep picks destroy, nothing happens whatsoever. All that happens is that (s)he wakes up from the indoctrination attempt. The Reapers haven't lost anything, all they did was fail in indoctrinating Shepard.

Except, you know, the game saying otherwise.

But hey, head canon.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Control's no more likely to be a total lie than Destroy is. Less so, actually, since anyone who wanted to manipulate Shep into picking an option would surely dress that option up as Destroy.

Ah, but here's the thing:

If they wanted Shep to pick destroy, disguised as a trap, they would have only needed one option: a big red button that says 'destroy Reapers', because destroying the Reapers is what Shep always wanted to do.

So if destroy is supposed to be a trap, there would be no need for confusing the player with control and synthesis options.

The same argument could be made of Control being a trap.

No, because Shepard never showed any intent in-game of wanting to control the Reapers. It was always the intent to destroy them.

A big blue button with 'control Reapers' and nothing else would make Shep go lolwut.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The logical explanation is that the Crucible doesn't have these three abilities at all. It's all an illusion inside Shepard's mind, he isn't even on the Citadel.

The destroy option is there because it's the part of Shepard that wants to destroy the Reapers. If the option wasn't there, it would clue Shep in on the indoctrination attempt.

So if Shep picks destroy, nothing happens whatsoever. All that happens is that (s)he wakes up from the indoctrination attempt. The Reapers haven't lost anything, all they did was fail in indoctrinating Shepard.

Except, you know, the game saying otherwise.

But hey, head canon.

Except, you know, the breath scene, which has wind, concrete and oh, a Mako flipped on its back.

But hey, trust in the Reaper AI. Still willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

Why on Earth would a species that considers itself the pinnacle of evolution allow a lesser species to control them? The notion is ridiculous, unless you buy into the story that the Reapers are just tools of a benevolent AI that was made to bring about peace between synthetics and organics, at which point you are aligning your goals with that of the Reapers.

"Your survival depends on destroying them, not understanding them" - Vigil.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[ElSuperGecko]

I still don't understand how anyone - after spending the previous five minutes arguing with The Illusive Man that the very idea of controlling the Reapers is a pipe dream - can suddenly change their mind because the AI that created the Reapers in the first place says "hey, you're SPECIAL.".

I mean seriously. Are you that gullible? Can you be dissuaded from a specific course of action that easily? 30 seconds of nothing but vague assurances from the very being which caused the mess you're in in the first place, and you're willing to throw everything Shepard and Anderson just told TIM out the window? I mean seriously, it's not as though the Reapers have a history of making empty promises to organics, is it? Of decieving them into doing their will?

Good job Bioware. I'm glad you scrapped that Indoctrination game mechanic, because this is MUCH more fun...

[AlanC9]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The logical explanation is that the Crucible doesn't have these three abilities at all. It's all an illusion/battle inside Shepard's mind, (s)he isn't even on the Citadel.

Oh, you're pushing IT. Sorry, I thought you were pushing a different line of nonsense.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

I still don't understand how anyone - after spending the previous five minutes arguing with The Illusive Man that the very idea of controlling the Reapers is a pipe dream - can suddenly change their mind because the AI that created the Reapers in the first place says "hey, you're SPECIAL.".

Because you don't have to argue that the idea of controlling the Reapers is a pipe dream, and because the Catalyst doesn't claim you're special.

I mean seriously. Are you that gullible? Can you be dissuaded from a specific course of action that easily? 30 seconds of nothing but vague assurances from the very being which caused the mess you're in in the first place, and you're willing to throw everything Shepard and Anderson just told TIM out the window? I mean seriously, it's not as though the Reapers have a history of making empty promises to organics, is it? Of decieving them into doing their will?

They don't, actually.

The Reapers are pretty obvious and honest with their intents and means. They use indoctrination, not subterfuge, to command obedience, and we've yet to get a lie worth the name. People delude themselves as to what the Reapers mean and intend.

Good job Bioware. I'm glad you scrapped that Indoctrination game mechanic, because this is MUCH more fun...

It'd probably help if you could track what actually happened.

[AlanC9]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Why on Earth would a species that allows itself the pinnacle of evolution allow a lesser species to control them? The notion is ridiculous, unless you buy into the story that the Reapers are just tools of a benevolent AI that was made to bring about peace between synthetics and organics, at which point you are aligning your goals with that of the Reapers.

Allow? Who says they have a choice? Or that they're right about being the pinnacle of evolution?

And benevolence isn't quite the right term. He's got a program, and he takes whatever actions are necessary.

[Dean_the_Young]

The same argument could be made of Control being a trap.

No, because Shepard never showed any intent in-game of wanting to control the Reapers. It was always the intent to destroy them.

Yes, because the line of argument is just the same: if they wanted a trap, they wouldn't have to create alternative option.

A big blue button with 'control Reapers' and nothing else would make Shep go lolwut.

And how would you rather trigger an advanced mechanical device? Insert a key and turn?

Except, you know, the breath scene, which has wind, concrete and oh, a Mako flipped on its back.

And?

But hey, trust in the Reaper AI. Still willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

It's not a Reaper AI, and it's not even the origin of the option.

The Control follows from the same place as the Destroy: the Crucible.

Why on Earth would a species that allows itself the pinnacle of evolution allow a lesser species to control them? The notion is ridiculous, unless you buy into the story that the Reapers are just tools of a benevolent AI that was made to bring about peace between synthetics and organics, at which point you are aligning your goals with that of the Reapers.

Why would they allow us to Destroy them?

They don't. But it's not their choice either. Benevolent AI or no, it's not their call to make at that point.

"Your survival depends on destroying them, not understanding them" - Vigil.

And the Illusive Man felt it was through control, even before Indoctrination set in. Saren thought it was subjugation.

Different people had different views.

[Dean_the_Young]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Destroy preserves all life in the galaxy and rids the galaxy of the reapers.

Control does all that as well, without a synthetic genocide.

The reapers have killed trillions of people, squashed down their bodies and turned them into mobile death machines. Listening to any suggestion from the reapers is foolish, especially when we've known for 3 games that one of their best weapons is manipulating people.

That's not their best weapon: indoctrination is.

Of course, you're also projecting something onto the Reapers that we learn they've never had: free will. Someone compelled to take an action, versus someone who does it on their own will, are two different contexts.

Leaving them alive is too big of a risk, living along side them is even worse. No one in the right mind would be able to live with the reapers after what they have down, how on earth can you even begin to trust them?

You aren't asking the Reapers to do what you want, you're forcing them.

Don't they deserve to be punished?

For being slaves to someone else? What would be the point?

The person ultimately responsible, the Catalyst, is removed.

[dreman9999]

liggy002 wrote...

Demon560 wrote...

So indoctrinated agents fought against those that wanted to use it to destroy it, you can interpreted as those who build it, and those who knew about, if you are relating it to Cerberus it would be the latter, since they did not help in building the Crucible, but were aware of it and thought it could be used to control the reapers, it could be either or, but if what your saying is true, why let destroy be included as an option within the crucible.

Because the Catalyst knows that Shepard and his friends want to destroy the Reapers.  If he only presented Control as an option, then Shepard would never choose Control.  It would be highly suspect.  It is a very elaborately designed trap.  Or, quite possibly for some other reason.

....Bad point. If it's between control and synthesis, Most peoplp would pick control. The catalyst has not control over with the crucible does.

[Sousabird]

AlanC9 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 If anything, it would be more logical of them to sabotage Destroy, leaving Control Synthesis the only viable function.

Fixed.

My thoughts exactly

[ElSuperGecko]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because you don't have to argue that the idea of controlling the Reapers is a pipe dream, and because the Catalyst doesn't claim you're special.

No, you don't have to argue, you just blindly accept what the Catalyst tells you and decide TIM was right all along instead.  And the Catalyst DOES claim you're special - or should we ignore that entire line about Shepard being the first organic to ever reach this point? 

The Reapers are pretty obvious and honest with their intents and means. They use indoctrination, not subterfuge, to command obedience, and we've yet to get a lie worth the name. People delude themselves as to what the Reapers mean and intend.

They certainly do, don't they? And judging from this conversation, they're still doing it.

It'd probably help if you could track what actually happened.

Oh please.  Now you're acting petulant.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:25 .

[CronicleChicken]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Destroy preserves all life in the galaxy and rids the galaxy of the reapers.

Control does all that as well, without a synthetic genocide.

The reapers have killed trillions of people, squashed down their bodies and turned them into mobile death machines. Listening to any suggestion from the reapers is foolish, especially when we've known for 3 games that one of their best weapons is manipulating people.

That's not their best weapon: indoctrination is.

Of course, you're also projecting something onto the Reapers that we learn they've never had: free will. Someone compelled to take an action, versus someone who does it on their own will, are two different contexts.

Leaving them alive is too big of a risk, living along side them is even worse. No one in the right mind would be able to live with the reapers after what they have down, how on earth can you even begin to trust them?

You aren't asking the Reapers to do what you want, you're forcing them.

Don't they deserve to be punished?

For being slaves to someone else? What would be the point?

The person ultimately responsible, the Catalyst, is removed.

I think that the Catalyst is a Reaper. If the Catalyst is a Reaper and he presented the options to you in such a way to guide you to a particular choice. Suggestive reasoning. I think this is an indoctrination attempt like it was throughout the whole ME3 game. The breath at the end is simply that, a breath. Think about, if the Indoctrination Theory is true and happens when it is believed to happen in the game, then we don't know the actual state Shepard is actually in. Shepard is laying in a pile of rubble not because he fell from space, he's laying there cause he got blown from the blast and never left London. It is subtle but it is there... Don't give in to the voices.

Just saying...

Modifié par CronicleChicken, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

AlanC9 wrote...

Allow?

Sorry, I meant to say 'considers' there. Considers themselves the pinnacle of evolution.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes, because the line of argument is just the same: if they wanted a trap, they wouldn't have to create alternative option.

No, you're missing the point. Shepard never showed any intent of wanting to control the Reapers, so just having the control option would have been highly suspicious.

Just having the destroy option wouldn't be suspicious at all, because that's what Shep always wanted, and it's what we expect the Crucible to do anyways. So if destroy was a trap, there would be no need to give the other two options.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except, you know, the breath scene, which has wind, concrete and oh, a Mako flipped on its back.

And?

And that means Shepard is in London.

Survive re-entry without helmet or functional armour after an explosion that is at least 10 km in diameter? lolar

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not a Reaper AI, and it's not even the origin of the option.

The AI that controls the Reapers isn't affiliated with the Reapers, okay.

Not the origin of the option? I would agree, because the option is fake.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Control follows from the same place as the Destroy: the Crucible.

It can't be the crucible, because that's just a huge battery and a 'crude device', if you want to believe the 'catalyst'.

So was it the Citadel? No, because, wasn't that built by the Reapers?

None of those crucible options are real.

It's all a battle in Shep's mind. Choosing destroy is simply representative of Shepard's will to fight, to resists the Reapers. All it does is wake him up.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And the Illusive Man felt it was through control, even before Indoctrination set in.

'Even before'? He was slowly being indoctrinated. How do you think he got those eyes? He got them after finding a Reaper artifact. One of the books even states he was indoctrinated.

On Mars he was already talking about bringing humanity to the 'apex of evolution', clearly indoctrinated talk.

And converting his own soldiers to husks? Making 'improvements'  to them? No sign of indoc there, nosirree.

Oh and what a surprise, if you choose synthesis or control, you suddenly have indoctrinated Illusive Man eyes, right before you die. No subtle hint at all.

You need to realize that most of your arguments are what they are because you're taking the so-called catalyst's word for it.

A being that clearly poses as something that doesn't seem threatening to you, by taking the guise of the innocent child back on Earth. And when you refuse to choose, he becomes mad and drops his guise for a second, to yell at you in a Reaper voice. No deception going on at all, there, nosirree.

The devil/demon posing as an innocent little creature is about the oldest trope in the book of deceptions. You should have alarm bells ringing all over the place.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:31 .