18 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

I think our answer would disappoint you.

The reason being that we don't play the game like a fan does. We play a game that is broken and not very fun with an eye towards making it work, and we do so repeatedly until the game is finally in the state you'll play it-- and at that point we're generally done.

Personally, I've never played a game I've worked on after release. I know it backwards and forwards; there is no mystery in it whatsoever and really all I can see at that point are bugs, things that were cut and missed opportunities. My urge would be to stop playing and to mod the game, had I the time.

I can play BioWare games that I didn't work on, however-- I enjoyed all three Mass Effect games, for instance, as well as Jade Empire. I'm kind of a little jealous that people get to go in and play my games without any knowledge of what's behind the curtain.

[Mary Kirby]

I went out and bought DAO on Steam because I was too impatient to wait for my free copy from work. I definitely agree with David, however, that I don't play the games I've worked on the way that I play any other games. There are no surprises, but I get a lot of enjoyment (and sometimes horror) from seeing how all the pieces came together. Because usually I only see it in very rough stages, before all the art is done, before John Epler has had time to make the ten millionth small change to the scene with Varric walking into Bartrand's house. It's great to see something that started out as just a few words turn into a full experience. It's often so much better than I had imagined it while writing. (Unless there are bugs, in which case I curse vehemently.) And I laugh at my own jokes. I'm terrible, I know.

[Sheryl Chee]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I agree. You guys are hilarious.

I didn't give all of them permission to laugh at their own jokes.  Just Mary.

What? I thought we had something, Shorts. I'm wounded. Wounded to the core.

On-topic, I played Origins, even after having worked on it for several years. I actually stayed up till 4 am, playing Origins. I played a city elf warrior who romanced no one, and was friends with everyone else.

I can't romance anyone in the games. It just feels a little wrong. 

[David Gaider]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
 . . So who there actually DOES play these things through and says if the game as a whole is actually fun or not? Do you not even bother thinking in that matter because you feel that you know it inside and out? That's a big mistake. Do you have a bunch of intern kids that are afraid to tell you that the end of your trilogy sucks eggs? That's a big problem, too.

Err... first off, we do play our games. Probably more than the vast majority of the fans who end up buying them. Our experience in doing so is quite different, however, as the game is largely unfinished right up until the very end. The only people who get a sense of the "fun" (at least insofar as the end user would experience it, as opposed to our own evaluation based on experience) are probably QA and more likely the focus testers. Playing it after release is quite a different story-- at least for me, personally. Mary and Sheryl are weirdos.

And, incidentally, knock off the insulting language. You may think that calling people "derp derp maroons" is just static and shouldn't affect your point, but it does. And this is a warning that keeping it up will earn you a quick trip off these forums. Got it?

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[David Gaider]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
So who are these focus testers? Do you guys hire a 3rd party agency of "pro" powergaming uber testers or do you just invite stoner kids in off the street or what? Maybe PM invite to some of the community? How do you guys normally get your bearing of what's really working together?

That isn't the subject of the thread, so I'll not answer your questions and promote further hijacking-- other than to say we have focus testers, both internal and external, that test any content which is in a state to actually play.

[Allan Schumacher]

I feel a need to interject into this thread since I am a member of the group that DOES play through the game and provide feedback on said content.

Pretty much the first thing any new QA member does is play through what content is there. We recognize that we only get one shot at the "fresh perspective" with a new tester. Now there's a window when this is most useful: Too soon and you don't really have systems in place and not much iteration has happened. Too late and stuff is locked down and simply cannot be changed unless it's a breaking issue.


Now, since someone asked, allow me to share:

I started on DAO in June 2009, which was towards the end of the project. So my job for two weeks was literally "Play DAO." Which was a bit surreal (I'm getting paid for this!) but it makes sense, as they need me to know what someone is talking about when they say "Nature of the Beast."

I played through DAO as a Male Human Noble Rogue. I found it fun, though perhaps more challenging until I got Wynne (I went to the Circle second). I try to playthrough in a "logical" manner, in that if I have Objective A and Objective B and A is on the way to B on the world map, I go to A first (Redcliffe).

In general, I prefer to play martial classes, so while running around in the DA games, I usually default to either the rogue or the warrior. Though I do mix it up more now since there's advantages to me seeing how it all works for all classes (note: I'm not actually a content tester, so any time I spend in game doing this stuff is typically while verifying something systemic and so forth. I'm not the type of QA that gets paid to just playthrough the game and provide feedback on the content, though I will send writing and design feedback if I notice anything ).


It CAN be tricky though, because not only when you play through the same content repeatedly skew your perspective on whether or not something is "fun" (it may be fun to start, but is it still fun the 100th time you've run through it?), there is also issues with understanding the motivations behind particular decisions.

I have no doubt that, compared to some, I am able to appreciate DA2 more simply because I know what was trying to be done in a particular situation, skewing my perspective on the actual system as it's in place. It's a challenge, and it is an effort to make sure things don't become pure autopilot. To say otherwise is just disingenuous.

Since I'm a Tech QA, I do have the advantage of being able to be surprised since I spend less time doing actual content. And, for example, I have given feedback on encounters that I find tedious when playing through the game. Where I could have done better was exploring the game more fully (I saw Act 1 waaaaaaay more than any of the other Acts, simply because when testing a system in game I knew where to find thorough tests of the system in a variety of places). There was some stuff that I definitely wish I had seen earlier in the dev cycle because when I finally experienced some of it, it was while reproducing critical issues during cert. Far too late to actually enact any changes.

Note that this is also why we do things like focus tests (which seem to be a curse word on these forums and many seem to think we shouldn't do them because they prevent true RPGs). There's also no shortage of people just in the company (there's a lot of people that work here) that don't typically play the game. I know many people on DA team that took part in ME3 playthroughs (I played through the first 30ish minutes in front of all the senior devs for it, and pointed out a lot of issues that I struggled with in terms of GUI and it was great to see them get remedied in the final project), and a lot of us actually took part in ME3 MP testing (to the point where it wasn't uncommon for people to just stay late and play it for fun).

But I digress....

I romanced Morrigan and in general got along really well with my party in both games. I never actually did a full "proper" playthrough of DA2 (I only did one of DAO, when I first started at BioWare), though I tended to gravitate towards sarcastic Hawke and Isabela as a romance (Isabela is my favourite NPC in the DA universe).

I'm usually the hero type that tries to save the day, but when push comes to shove I am able to make hard decisions and if someone wrongs me I can let my emotions get the better of me (i.e. punching Admirals in ME3). Speaking of ME3, I chose destroy. Though it'd probably be easier to look up one of my rather lengthy posts detailing why I liked it as an option and why I thought it was actually emotionally powerful. I say this with the belief that I found the endings to ME3 disappointing too.


That being said, while the repetition can sap some of the fun, seeing some stuff for the first time can be really freaking awesome. Crafting for DA3 has me super giddy. There's my tease for this post

[Allan Schumacher]

Is this really so difficult to understand or have you all just decided to "gang up on the badguy" because you think I'm somehow "attacking" bioware?

You weren't attacking BioWare. You attacked the posters in this thread specifically when you stated they were just a bunch of maroons white knighting us.

You shouldn't be surprised that your posts in this thread end up seeing resistance as a result, similar to how you're now speaking up as you are feeling slighted.

I'm willing to chalk it up as a poor choice of words and thing people should just keep a cool head. I have no issues discussing the actual methods of how we experience content, if that's what you would like to do.

[Allan Schumacher]

For reference sake:

Isolde is dead, while Connor is alive

[Allan Schumacher]

If any have ever wondered what I mean when I refer to "iteration" in any of my posts, it's pretty much akin to "opportunity time."

[Allan Schumacher]

While I don't think a speed run of a DA game would be the best idea, have you all thought about something similar, as a way to get senior developers/writers/QA workers excited about the final product? Maybe have a competition on who can do a run through of the game with the most creative/depressing/crazy plot flags? I've seen threads on these boards talking about the best way to do 'evil' playthroughs, where the most companions are killed or the more reprehensible decisions are made.

We do do such things. For what it's worth, I have heard that the BG2 speed run was clocked in at less than 2 (maybe even 1?) hours

[David Gaider]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Hey, David Gaider and other BioWare writers. This year I got to hear dialogue I wrote performed by actors for the first time. I had a minor crisis of... "I suck forever and no one speaks like this but me." Specifically I told the director "Oh ****. I wrote me speaking to also me." How do you guys deal with hearing your dialogue. Does it get better? Will I ever stop cringing at it?

I tend to read my lines out loud as I'm writing them, and for important scenes we have a readthrough with the VO team where I get to hear someone else reading my lines out loud-- both of these things allow me to pick out the things that are awkward, or which people just don't say. So, yes, it should get better if you work at it. You just need to remember that you must write your dialogue as if it's going to be recorded, not just as prose on the page.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 octobre 2012 - 03:19 .

[John Epler]

arcelonious wrote...

Hello David Gaider, Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have become some of my favorite games this console generation (including Mass Effect and Dragon Age), and I was wondering if you've played them, and if there were some aspects of these games that you enjoyed and may take inspiration from. Understandably, From Software's minimalistic approach on certain elements is probably something that comes at odds with your emphasis on dialogue, codices, and so on, but how about aspects like atmosphere or world/dungeon design?

I'm not sure if Dave has played them, but I know that our level design team and a number of other folks (Mike, myself, some of the QA guys) have played Dark Souls fairly extensively. We tend to draw inspiration from a lot of different sources, but one thing I feel Dark Souls did exceptionally well was creating a very cohesive world - everything connected in a logical fashion. And, of course, finding shortcuts later on that were not available immediately always felt like it made sense - of course you can climb up that ladder now that you've knocked it down, or of course you can go into that tunnel now that you've unlocked the gate from the other side.

I'm not on the level design team, so I can't comment on any specific impact this might have on our own creation process, but I know that the sense of cohesion is definitely something we liked.

Modifié par John Epler, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:46 .

[John Epler]

LPPrince wrote...

^As someone who hasn't played any of the Souls games, that's cool to hear...err, read.

I'd really recommend giving Dark Souls a whirl. It's one of my favourite games from the current generation of consoles - it can get pretty tough, though, so that's one thing to bear in mind.

[Allan Schumacher]

Remanentmoss01 wrote...

ME and DAO were by far my favoorite games until the day i came upon Demons Souls , The atmosphere in that game is astonishing and creeps me out like no other game or movie ever has,
And the world design in Dark Souls is just crazy brilliant in the way it all just comes together,
I often wonder what a Bioware game would be like if you used the constant save system they use in the Souls games,
In coversation or when you had to make a choice there wouldn't be a previous save to reload you'd have to live with the outcome, it would be great for replayability

I think the idea of not letting people go back and redo conversations is a fascinating idea.  Having said that, just looking at the responses to a game like Alpha Protocol or even the inital suggestions for TOR, I'd be exceptionally surprised if we did something like that.

[Allan Schumacher]

I knew someone would come in with a point against the dialogue wheel in this regard, but I think it's a red herring.

Even if we had full lines of dialogue I think the majority of the fanbase wouldn't be happy, if for no other reason than implementing this feature effectively removes the player's ability to "save anywhere."

[Allan Schumacher]

Quicksilver26 wrote...
no no no don't you dare MR.Schumacher if you do you'll mess up my number one gameing rule witch is save and save alot it's half the fun for me please don't take away my save please don't 

I wouldn't worry about it too much

[Allan Schumacher]

The discussion was regarding whether or not we'd restrict saving/loading anywhere.

[Allan Schumacher]

If you did, you would simply *have* to put in an option to pause dialogue on all platforms. There is literally nothing worse than having to replay the exact same conversation five times because each time you tried to sit down to play through it, your spouse/partner/parent/child/other-non-ignorable-person walked in and wanted to have a chat.

I think conversation/cutscene pause should be added regardless of what we do with saves (it is a logged user story so it's definitely a tracked goal for DA3)

Curious, could you do something similar to TWD's statistics for the major decisions at the end of each episode and if not, any reasoning? It's interesting to see the percentage of people who did something, I've genuinly been surprised many times by what players did or did not do.

I actually really like this idea haha. Don't have any idea the level of complexity something like this would take, however. Would need to touch base with peeps that know more than I!