388 réponses à ce sujet

[BrookerT]

Cimeas wrote...

The Witcher 2 is absolutely not sexist. It is set in a world where rape, sexism and misogyny are common. If anything, it is a much more interesting fantasy than Dragon Age because that's really what medieval Europe was like.

When your friend gets raped, or you find that pregnant elf girl in the town leader's house and you can't save her, it's sad and shocking, it's emotional. As for the brothels, I don't see a problem with that, they don't mean the developers are sexist, just that the Northern Kingdoms are. The sex scenes in TW2 could certainly be said to be a bit excessive, but the only ones that are shown in detail are ones of mutual consent, not rape.

The Witcher 2 exudes the universe of the books it is based on (which in turn are set in a fantasy version of medieval Europe). It would be absolutely wrong to call the developers sexist.

This is general, the only bit I find really seixst in the Witcher 2 is the fact that in the Brothel in Flotsam, the ladys face is horribly textured and animated, but her body is perfect, which does say something about their prioties. Oh, and the fact that Male Charcters wear pants while females where nothing, is just as bad as the worst of the bioware love scenes.

[Maria Caliban]

Cimeas wrote...

The Witcher 2 is absolutely not sexist.

lolwhat?

Did you not notice that two of the main women characters are magically unconscious/turned into a statue, and in need of rescuing for the majority of the story?

The the women who show any power are always punished? Their eyes are gouged out, they're burned at the stake, or they become damsels in distress who can't handle the mental trauma of seeing people die.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Bfler]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The the women who show any power are always punished? Their eyes are gouged out, they're burned at the stake, or they become damsels in distress who can't handle the mental trauma of seeing people die.

Do you know the novels of the Witcher? Do you know Ciri?

Modifié par Bfler, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Maria Caliban]

I'm not talking about the novels and short stories, but the Witcher 2.

What about Ciri?

[Bfler]

Because you claimed woman in Witcher are always damsels or "objects". 

[Maria Caliban]

Bfler wrote...

Because you claimed woman in Witcher are always damsels or "objects". 

Oh, I see. 'The Witcher 2' means 'all the Witcher games, novels, short stories, and movie' and a five prominent women in the game are all the women characters.

So, basically, your objection is that you don't know how to read?

[FINE HERE]

Easy now, you two. Don't start an off-topic arguement and get this thread locked down...

[Kail Ashton]

Yes give females nothing but bulky armor, in fact, why even have a gender for sexist pigs to holler at? EVERYONE IS NOW A DUDE IN DRAGON AGE 3!! that'll show 'em!

Yeah this is why you don't let guys pretend to be feminists on internet forums to impress fangirls, cause fangirls are just upstanding young ladies who don't want all their squee boytoys half naked or anything

[The Hierophant]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Yes give females nothing but bulky armor, in fact, why even have a gender for sexist pigs to holler at? EVERYONE IS NOW A DUDE IN DRAGON AGE 3!! that'll show 'em!

Yeah this is why you don't let guys pretend to be feminists on internet forums to impress fangirls, cause fangirls are just upstanding young ladies who don't want all their squee boytoys half naked or anything

A scantily clad melee fighter going toe to toe with platemail wearing mooks who are armed to the teeth without being one shotted, defies logic/common sense more than magic, goblins, and dragons for some people. 

[axl99]

Kail, I think the Koreans and the Japanese got us beat on that. And I bet you a good 7 out of 10 character modelers and concept artists who make said "squee boytoys" are male.

[Attitudes on fan culture notwithstanding.]

[oui_je_danse]

This thread is about the designs for female characters. Not whether Witcher 2 was sexist or if DA needs to be more sexist (!!!).

I think the DA team is doing a good job. So long as there's a spectrum, where everyone from women to elves have different designs that match their stories, I'll be happy. I'm more concerned with female dwarves going MIA in DA2 than I am with who has how much cleavage.

[Adanu]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

The Witcher 2 is absolutely not sexist.

lolwhat?

Did you not notice that two of the main women characters are magically unconscious/turned into a statue, and in need of rescuing for the majority of the story?

The the women who show any power are always punished? Their eyes are gouged out, they're burned at the stake, or they become damsels in distress who can't handle the mental trauma of seeing people die.

Uh.... don't even try going there. Both women were part of a manipulative group trying to sieze power from the background against long established dynasties. If you think that them being discovered wouldn't bite them in the ass, you are delusional.

It has nothing to do with sexism, and everything to do with rules holding onto their power.

[Todd23]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

See ya' later, David Gaider.

[spirosz]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Godwood I meant Aveline was too much because it seemed they tried to make her a man and it is hard to explain it felt artificial I don't know

[Dragoonlordz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not talking about the novels and short stories, but the Witcher 2.

What about Ciri?

Witcher 2 is no more sexist than Dragon Age or Mass Effect. Women in Witcher 2 are some of the most powerfull characters in the world, they are feared because of that power and that fear is why both men and women in power seek to control them. You appear to confuse common sense with sexism. Even if all the sorcerers were men they would still play out the same way both in repercussions for plotting to oust those in power and out of fear by those in power whether men or women. It is not sexist because women were ones punished anymore than if was man who got punished, you are in fact being sexist yourself because you think it is alright to happen to men not women.

Secondly do not confuse the fact there is prostitution in the game to mean it is sexist either, it is fact of life prostitution exists in such worlds and era's just like DA2 had huge amounts of prostitutes in the blooming rose. I will grant you the cards in TW1 were sexist though but only because they were cards unlocked and collected but this game mechanic did not exist in TW2. Sex itself, presented in game is not sexist. Whether that is man on man, woman on woman or man and a woman.

There are sexist characters in the game, but they are shown as such and represented as such in the game itself, it makes the world more believable to have people of all types represented as character persona's in such games. Your character however is not one unless you choose to be one. You say what about Ciri, then what about the fact it had very strong female roles in the game from Saskia and Ves plus others, in fact if went easy on Ves in the tournament she gets offended because did not treat her as an equal.

Another thing is sexism goes both ways, it is not only a female thing despite what some feminists would have others believe, why do you think every male lead tends to be crafted to be attractive young men with bulging muscles. It is not solely for the male ego I can promise you that. Women want to see attractive men in games as much as men wish to see attractive women. Both Witcher 2 and Dragon Age did quite well so far on such themes, characters and gender. Meaning they had many types of characters.

Now before get even further off topic into your misunderstanding on sexism in The Witcher 2 and lack of acknowledgment that Dragon Age is no better. With regard to outfits for DA3, if someone is going to be a front line fighter like a 'warrior type' then it makes sense for them to wear strong armour regardless of male or female, if agility is what a class or character relies on then regardless of male or female it does not make sense to weigh them down with bulky armour. Most importantly is the character and persona of the person using any types of armour.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[Plaintiff]

Cimeas wrote...

The Witcher 2 is absolutely not sexist. It is set in a world where rape, sexism and misogyny are common. If anything, it is a much more interesting fantasy than Dragon Age because that's really what medieval Europe was like.

But Thedas is not Medieval Europe, and was never intended to reflect Medieval Europe.

Why is a game that apes the social and cultural mores of Medieval Europe more "interesting" than one that creates a setting that is mostly original?

[Russalka]

I invoke this again:



Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

Wait, is it even objectification then?

Modifié par Russalka, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Vandicus]

Russalka wrote...

Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

I think that objectification does not actually need to be balanced in order for a work to be good. In most cases objectification is an annoyance because it is their sole characteristic. When a fundamentally well written character is objectified I find that nothing is taken away from them. 

In other words I find objectification a problem when it interferes with writing. Otherwise go wild in objectifying either sex.

*EDIT

Russalka wrote...

Wait, is it even objectification then?

Yeah its still objectification. Objectification in writing typically means making a character sexually appealing to people who are interested in that gender, and focusing on this aspect to an at least moderate extent. Literal objectification is somewhat less common.

Modifié par Vandicus, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Shadow Fox]

*gets gasoline and matches*


Oh don't mind me.

[Adanu]

Russalka wrote...

I invoke this again:



Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

Wait, is it even objectification then?

That comic is so full of facepalm I can't begin to start. False equivalence? Give me a break, attributing dexterity as the thing women go for is just as bad as saying that big boobs are what most men go for. That's bull**** generalizing just as bad as 'female objectification'.

[Dragoonlordz]

Russalka wrote...

I invoke this again:

-snip-

Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

Wait, is it even objectification then?

Your comic is flawed in being a method to dismiss sexism going both ways, I can say this as a man regarding what I want in male characters and I can link women saying they want attractive male characters just like they also want to play skinny, better looking female ones. It goes both ways. Now maybe your idea of good looking male is different to others but male characters are not buff for the sole reason of appealing to male ego, it is also for the attraction to female gamers. Just like female characters depending on the woman likes to play attractive women as well as for purpose of being attractive to men.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 octobre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Atakuma]

Adanu wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I invoke this again:



Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

Wait, is it even objectification then?

That comic is so full of facepalm I can't begin to start. False equivalence? Give me a break, attributing dexterity as the thing women go for is just as bad as saying that big boobs are what most men go for. That's bull**** generalizing just as bad as 'female objectification'.

I find that comic rather creepy since she is essentially giving batman childlike characteristics.

[Vandicus]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I invoke this again:

-snip-

Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

Wait, is it even objectification then?

Your comic is flawed in being a method to dismiss sexism going both ways in video games, I can say this as a man regarding what I want in male characters and I can link women saying they want attractive male characters just like they also want to play skinny, better looking ones. It goes both ways. Now maybe your idea of good looking male is different to others but male characters are not buff for the sole reason of appealing to male ego, it is also for the attraction to female gamers. Just like female characters depending on the woman likes to play attractive women as well as for purpose of being attractive to men.

Not to mention that the comic does not attempt to represent the opposing point of view fairly by any means. Ideally any debate would feature the best points that both sides have to offer articulated as well as possible. It uses fairly shameful dismissive tactics. 

[Dragoonlordz]

Vandicus wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I invoke this again:

-snip-

Now, personally, I am of the mindset that objectification works fine, at least in this medium, if it is balanced between genders and tasteful and works for the character. Otherwise it becomes an annoyance.

Wait, is it even objectification then?

Your comic is flawed in being a method to dismiss sexism going both ways, I can say this as a man regarding what I want in male characters and I can link women saying they want attractive male characters just like they also want to play skinny, better looking ones. It goes both ways. Now maybe your idea of good looking male is different to others but male characters are not buff for the sole reason of appealing to male ego, it is also for the attraction to female gamers. Just like female characters depending on the woman likes to play attractive women as well as for purpose of being attractive to men.

Not to mention that the comic does not attempt to represent the opposing point of view fairly by any means. Ideally any debate would feature the best points that both sides have to offer articulated as well as possible. It uses fairly shameful dismissive tactics. 

Correct, that is the issue I have with "current" feminism, it is biased in favor of one gender. It is not about equality anymore (though in past it potentially was). It is in it's rawest form about promotion of female agenda these days and not tackling it as an issue for both genders. Sexism is not about women only unlike feminism which is anti-male / pro-female agenda, sexism is both genders and that is the "ism" that matters to me.

In debates such as these on here, whether regarding armour or appearence it should be tackled about both gender types not just one instead of the other. Both men and women like to look at attractive male and female characters which includes exaggerated muscles, chiseled facial features and exaggerated physical traits. Both do not make sense in wearing heavy armour for agile characters and light armour for front line warriors. Tackle it and treat it equally for both genders.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 octobre 2012 - 11:35 .

[Russalka]

Do you think attraction is primary when designing men? And what about women?

The comic was not meant to dispel the idea that men in games are ONLY power fantasies, but to show that if attraction was emphasised as much as it is for women, it could come off as uncomfortable.

I do not deny that people of any gender want to see some eye-candy. It is just that it is not exactly balanced, at least it seems so to myself.

Modifié par Russalka, 01 octobre 2012 - 11:35 .