388 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Russalka wrote...

Hmm, but was there ever as much discussion on BSN nitpicking on male companion appearance as much as there were those for female characters?

I recall a few dreadful threads about Morrigan and Isabela. Aveline gets called a man a lot.

Female discussions and some male ones sexually objectify and nitpick male companions all the time on here. Just like they do female companions. Again goes for both character genders.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:32 .

[legbamel]

Russalka wrote...
Hmm, but was there ever as much discussion on BSN nitpicking on male companion appearance as much as there were those for female characters?

I recall a few dreadful threads about Morrigan and Isabela. Aveline gets called a man a lot.

I seem to recall quite a lot of discussion about Fenris dismissing him as anime-inspired fangirl bait, picking apart his clothing, his hair, his eyes, his tattoos, and his lack of footwear, in fact.  The others?  No so much.

[Russalka]

I have not seen the likes of this thread for male characters though.

[The Hierophant]

Russalka wrote...

I have not seen the likes of this thread for male characters though.

My goodness 33 pages!?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:38 .

[Russalka]

I think the appearance of Isabela in a gameplay trailer spawned another one of those, and a pretty long one as well, or maybe it happened within the same thread. I cannot remember.

Modifié par Russalka, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .

[Sylvianus]

I remember a few threads about how ugly male hawk was ( before the release of the game ) , how Fenris was disgusting ( anime,  stereostype ) ( before and after the release of DAII )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Dragoonlordz]

legbamel wrote...

Russalka wrote...
Hmm, but was there ever as much discussion on BSN nitpicking on male companion appearance as much as there were those for female characters?

I recall a few dreadful threads about Morrigan and Isabela. Aveline gets called a man a lot.

I seem to recall quite a lot of discussion about Fenris dismissing him as anime-inspired fangirl bait, picking apart his clothing, his hair, his eyes, his tattoos, and his lack of footwear, in fact.  The others?  No so much.

Don't forget Varric, have also seem more than enough comics by fans of naked bar say a piece of cloth, bed sheet or table and semi naked male characters on here. Probably more so than female companions shown in such light. It is not a one sided thing. Especially given the trolling nature of many posters here when someone starts something stupid they jump in and play along until the thread lock.

The OP's issue is a non issue really when taken into account the characters personality lends itself to one thing over another. While there is logic that warriors would wear armour and agile characters wear less as hinders their agility. Jack was a rebel, abused and couldn't care less attitude. This personality fits with the rebelious nature of her outfit. Same goes for Isabela who was flirtatious and sexually aggressive persona with a requirement battle wise to be agile  she would not be the kind to put on full plate. The characters matched their visual style. The OP wants to force all characters to match his perception rather than the characters persona.

Bioware should continue to do as they have done in the past despite what the OP wants.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Vandicus]

Russalka wrote...

I think the appearance of Isabela in a gameplay trailer spawned another one of those, and a pretty long one as well, or maybe it happened within the same thread. I cannot remember.

When people start to view eye candy as a normal part of any media experience, they complain if the eye candy is not to their liking. Western females are not used to having much eye candy in video games, so they're less likely to complain if the available eye candy is not to their liking. If say Edward Cullen suddenly shaved himself bald, you can imagine the fan outrage there. Eye candy expected, eye candy will be complained about. Eye candy not expected, its absence or quality will not be often critiqued.

[Sylvianus]

Before the release of DAII, I think Merril is the one who suffered the most, worse than Isabela. I remember, people laughed at her appearance as a child and virgin, with breasts disproportionate compared to her body feverish, there were plenty of jokes and insults lol.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:03 .

[HighMoon]

 While I appreciate Saskia as a character (even though I went down Roache's path, I still liked what little I saw of her. She was charismatic, and reminded me of my female Cousland from DAO - only tougher) she isn't winning any awards for me in the armor or design departments.

Although as others have said - so long as someone's appearance suits their personality I don't really have a problem with it. 

[Elrena]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

legbamel wrote...

Russalka wrote...
Hmm, but was there ever as much discussion on BSN nitpicking on male companion appearance as much as there were those for female characters?

I recall a few dreadful threads about Morrigan and Isabela. Aveline gets called a man a lot.

I seem to recall quite a lot of discussion about Fenris dismissing him as anime-inspired fangirl bait, picking apart his clothing, his hair, his eyes, his tattoos, and his lack of footwear, in fact.  The others?  No so much.

Don't forget Varric, have also seem more than enough comics by fans of naked bar say a piece of cloth, bed sheet or table and semi naked male characters on here. Probably more so than female companions shown in such light.

The OP's issue is a non issue really when taken into account the characters personality lends itself to one thing over another. While there is logic that warriors would wear armour and agile characters wear less as hinders their agility. Jack was a rebel, abused and couldn't care less attitude. This personality fits with the rebelious nature of her outfit. Same goes for Isabela who was flirtatious and sexually aggressive persona with a requirement battle wise to be agile  she would not be the kind to put on full plate. The characters matched their visual style. The OP wants to force all characters to match his perception rather than the characters persona.

Bioware should continue to do as they have done in the past despite what the OP wants.

THIS.

[mousestalker]

Russalka wrote...

Hmm, but was there ever as much discussion on BSN nitpicking on male companion appearance as much as there were those for female characters?

I recall a few dreadful threads about Morrigan and Isabela. Aveline gets called a man a lot.

If you really want to see obsession over male characters, go to kmeme and look for Anders, Fenris and Fenders.

{Disclosure: I have written Fenders fanfic (no, no one will ever know which smut ridden hormone drenched atrocity is mine, but it's there)}

[Russalka]

I am well aware of the smut and obsession over male characters.

My question was about nitpicking.

And I have a Fenris fan ficlet and a Priscilla - Queen of the Desert crossover to Kirkwall lying around someplace.

Modifié par Russalka, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:57 .

[Dirty Whore]

MODEDIT: Troll post removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:35 .

[PaulSX]

I thought in DA3 we can equip followers like in DAO, so why would this issue even matter? BTW, I do hope arcane warrior come back so that I can have armored mages.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real. They are not based in reality. They are only vaguely inspired by them. They are not even historical fiction. They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Agreed.

Power struggles exist between the:
- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).
- Humans and the Elves (racism).
- Humans of Ferelden proper and Humans of the Korcari Wilds, the Chasind (racism).
- Dwarven Castes (financial/social snobbery).
- Ferelden and Orlais (political/historical).
- Chantry and the Qun (theological rivals).

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

Maybe you should read the context of a discussion before you jump in. We're were discussing the Witcher series and ASoIaF are not sexist because they have sexism within their setting. They are simply emulating the societies in which they took their inspiration.

But you know, that's not nearly as fun as getting angry about something that noone said.

[Fiacre]

KiwiQuiche wrote...


Regardless, I can't really understand some poeple here. Aveline is too mannish...how the hell does that work? True, she's strong, loyal and doesn't look too bad naked, but you certainly saw the more tender side of her, notable with The Long Road and speaking to her after Leandra died (that convo was lovely.)

That argument pisses me off so much... How can she be too "mannish"? How can anyone? Aveline is Aveline. Having a female body doesn't mean she has to have lots of stereotypically female characteristics. It doesn't mean that she has to have any of them. Aveline can be how and what she wants to be, and if she has "male" characteristics, then that's how she is and there is not a single damn thing wrong with it.

Modifié par Fiacre, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .

[Vandicus]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real. They are not based in reality. They are only vaguely inspired by them. They are not even historical fiction. They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Agreed.

Power struggles exist between the:
- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).
- Humans and the Elves (racism).
- Humans of Ferelden proper and Humans of the Korcari Wilds, the Chasind (racism).
- Dwarven Castes (financial/social snobbery).
- Ferelden and Orlais (political/historical).
- Chantry and the Qun (theological rivals).

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

Maybe you should read the context of a discussion before you jump in. We're were discussing the Witcher series and ASoIaF are not sexist because they have sexism within their setting. They are simply emulating the societies in which they took their inspiration.

But you know, that's not nearly as fun as getting angry about something that noone said.

Zkyire's stance that sexism in Thedas in "makes sense" seems pretty clear from the text that was quoted. 

[Dragoonlordz]

suntzuxi wrote...

I thought in DA3 we can equip followers like in DAO, so why would this issue even matter? BTW, I do hope arcane warrior come back so that I can have armored mages.

We can equip any companion in the next game this has been already confirmed as they are trying to do for us. The last thing I saw on this was the customisation is going to be there but each peice will appear different to match the persona of the character and role. So say have some shoulder pads they look different depending on who you equip them on but can equip on anyone. It will still keep the personality of the character in that sense but full customisation is back. As I said before this is a non-issue the OP really does not have much of a case here. Bioware are keeping the armour tied into the persona of the characters and changes accordingly but customisation is back. Bioware should ignore the OP imho and do what it is they proposed already.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:11 .

[Sylvianus]

I didn't find Aveline mannish at all. This thought never once crossed my mind. ( Maybe the op didn't like her armor ? That's what he meant ? ) She wasn't like a man, didn't behave like a man, she was a true woman and strong character at the same time, that's why I loved her, my favorite companion and she's one of the few reasons why I liked DAII xD

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:26 .

[Maria Caliban]

suntzuxi wrote...

I thought in DA3 we can equip followers like in DAO, so why would this issue even matter? BTW, I do hope arcane warrior come back so that I can have armored mages.

Not quite. Each follower has an individual design. If you equip them with leather armor, it won't look like it would on the PC or a different follower.

[legbamel]

For me the issue wasn't Isabela or DA2 in general. It was the cheerleader outfits they put the Dalish women in (and the women in SWTOR, as well). The need to wear cropped off little tank tops, particularly the troopers as a part of their "heavy" armor, can only be explained by making my tougher-than-nails, guns blazing, green FemShep trooper into sex toy for Aric. Thankfully, he didn't even notice. It bothered the heck out of me, since it was the best armor for that level. Then there was hubby's level 50 Jedi consular in the same sort of thing with a hood. Seriously?!

I don't mind skin if it fits a character, meaning character-specific sets, not ones that anyone can wear. I do mind it when the same armor equipped on different genders displays a disparate amount of skin. If a male Warden wore Dalish armor it covered his torso. It should on a woman, too. Are female intestines and livers not worth protecting?!

[upsettingshorts]

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real. They are not based in reality. They are only vaguely inspired by them. They are not even historical fiction. They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Of course I was.

I also had nothing much to say about ASOIAF or TW, only to point out the latter is not historical fiction.  It could be a 1:1 World War II allegory and it still would not be, as historical fiction operates under the premise of having taken place in the real world with altered circumstances and not a wholly fictitious universe.

I've bolded the part the criticisms of my response seem to be ignoring, namely by pointing out things in DA that are vaguely inspired by real world issues that are not sexism.  That they have included this list of other things that have vague (yes, vague) analogs in the real world does not follow that they need to include anything else from the real world to make the world more real. 

Therefore, why should we argue that the writers ought to make DA "more sexist?"  Saying that other works of fiction do this isn't really an answer, unless the implication is simply that you enjoy sexism plots.  In that case I don't think we've got much to discuss, or at least argue about.  There's no accounting for taste.  If the answer is, "it's more realistic" and nothing more, than my point stands uncontested by your (and others) responses.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:52 .

[spirosz]

Dragoonlordz wrote...



The OP's issue is a non issue really when taken into account the characters personality lends itself to one thing over another. While there is logic that warriors would wear armour and agile characters wear less as hinders their agility. Jack was a rebel, abused and couldn't care less attitude. This personality fits with the rebelious nature of her outfit. Same goes for Isabela who was flirtatious and sexually aggressive persona with a requirement battle wise to be agile  she would not be the kind to put on full plate. The characters matched their visual style. The OP wants to force all characters to match his perception rather than the characters persona.

Bioware should continue to do as they have done in the past despite what the OP wants.

On the bolded, exactly. 

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

Maybe you should read the context of a discussion before you jump in. We're were discussing the Witcher series and ASoIaF are not sexist because they have sexism within their setting. They are simply emulating the societies in which they took their inspiration.

But you know, that's not nearly as fun as getting angry about something that noone said.

I have read the entire discussion, and I did before I posted.

I was only addressing Zkyire, and his post makes no mention of The Witcher series, or A Song of Ice and Fire. Even if I had been addressing every quote in that block, they still aren't mentioned.

The argument for including sexism in Dragon Age is that it "fits the setting", or it's "needed for realism". The false logic behind this assertion is that the game "is based on the Middle Ages, and other media based on the Middle Ages features sexism". All I did was point out how this argument is flawed.

As for being "angry", I see nothing in my posts that indicates any sort of tone, and I don't see how you've drawn this conclusion.