388 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's almost as if you have a certain level of maturity to notice the maturity. Nah, that couldn't be it.  Has to be the level of boobs and/or violence that matters.

It does seem a common idea of "maturity" on the forums is the one you'd expect viewers of PG-13 works to hold, yeah.

Oghren is a good example of that.

[CARL_DF90]

On the subject of boobs and whatnot, the growing trend of over sexualized female bits in the gaming industry is both tiresome and tasteless. The worst part of this? There are females on these forums not seeing the problem with this. Ugh.

[Das Tentakel]

tmp7704 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's almost as if you have a certain level of maturity to notice the maturity. Nah, that couldn't be it.  Has to be the level of boobs and/or violence that matters.

It does seem a common idea of "maturity" on the forums is the one you'd expect viewers of PG-13 works to hold, yeah.

Oghren is a good example of that.

I like Oghren. All that gruff exterior and that soft, sentimental, conflicted interior, like a hard piece of candy with gooey ultrasweet softness inside.

He would be totally out of place with these guys....:innocent:



Clicky pic. . Relax and smile, the Maker loves you :innocent:.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:24 .

[oui_je_danse]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

On the subject of boobs and whatnot, the growing trend of over sexualized female bits in the gaming industry is both tiresome and tasteless. The worst part of this? There are females on these forums not seeing the problem with this. Ugh.

The bolding is mine.

The sexist attitude towards and over sexualization of women has been really brutal in all forms of science fiction and fantasy media since both were first popularized. If anything the gaming industry is getting better.

[Yaevinn]

What's troubling me, it's the "boob armor". Makes an excellent shot trap, i.e. every bolt deflected may hit the throat or jaw. The ubiquitous decolettage of woman armor makes thing even worse.

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Apropos of nothing why is it that most of the people who claim Dragon Age is not mature are frequently the same people who describe say, Oghren, as a stereotypical drunken dwarf?

It's almost as if you need to have a certain level of maturity to notice the maturity. Nah, that couldn't be it.  Has to be the level of boobs and/or violence that matters.

In the main game, sure, Oghren has depth.  But I have tried to give him a chance in Awakening, and every time, I become more repelled by how he is written.  It's not very often that I really dislike a Bioware party member, but Oghren in Awakening is a special case.

This whole topic is depressing.  I'd really like women in Bioware games to just be written and designed the same way they would design male characters.  Even Zevran was allowed to wear armor into combat, and there were no complaints that he should have dressed in a more "sexy" manner, or that leather armor "didn't fit his personality."

[Dutchess]

I could live with Isabela's outfit, over-the-top as it may look at first sight. I had more issues with her breasts, which looked too much like balloons than anything else. I don't think they have implants in a Medieval setting. Big breats: fine. But then make it look a little bit less cartoonish.

[upsettingshorts]

syllogi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Apropos of nothing why is it that most of the people who claim Dragon Age is not mature are frequently the same people who describe say, Oghren, as a stereotypical drunken dwarf?

It's almost as if you need to have a certain level of maturity to notice the maturity. Nah, that couldn't be it.  Has to be the level of boobs and/or violence that matters.

In the main game, sure, Oghren has depth.  But I have tried to give him a chance in Awakening, and every time, I become more repelled by how he is written.  It's not very often that I really dislike a Bioware party member, but Oghren in Awakening is a special case.

That kind of interpretation is just the kind I was referring to.  Oghren in DAA is DAO Oghren jumping back on the wagon because he can't handle life.  He's a total mess and he's even more desperate to cover it up than usual. 

If there's a telling difference between DAO and DAA Oghren, it's that the former can take a joke.  In DAA, he has incredibly thin skin because his self-confidence is hanging by a thread.  There are examples of this in banters as well as in conversations with the Warden, in both games.

The issue with Oghren in Awakening, it's that it's super hard to unlock all his dialogues and reveal this.  You basically need a guide.   But it's absolutely there, was clearly intentional, and its heartbreaking.  In short, it's all an act, he's a deeply troubled man.

Think about it.  This is a guy who starts a family and then makes a conscious decision to join the Grey Wardens, knowing much better than most precisely what that means.  What would possess someone to do that?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Sylvianus]

Zevran didn't have an iconic look which could fit his personality, it was a generic armor regardless of who he was, so the comparison doesn't hold a lot of water. And from what I read, people are more saying, that if it fits the personality, consistent with the character, even dressed in a more sexy manner, ( with diversity ) according to Bioware, then, there's no reasons why they couldn't do what they want, especially when we'll get customization.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[syllogi]

Sylvianus wrote...

Zevran didn't have an iconic look which could fit his personality, it was a generic armor regardless of who he was, so the comparison doesn't hold a lot of water. And from I read, people are more saying, that if it fits the personality, consistent with the character,  even dressed in a more sexy manner, ( with diversity ) according to Bioware, then, there's no reasons why they couldn't do what they want, especially when we'll get customization.

No, they didn't have iconic looks in the first game, except for Morrigan, but yes, I do think you can compare Zevran and Isabela's treatment, since people often say they're a lot alike.  It was not important to give Zevran a "sexy" outfit (like Morrigan got, even though it could be argued that his character is more defined by his sexuality than Morrigan), while people like to say that Isabela doesn't wear armor because that's not the way she was written.  

I'll hold off judgement on the new customization system until I try it, but it really would be nice if when dressing female characters, it's not an EDI-style Sophie's Choice of "practically naked" or "pronounced ******."  I don't think that's too much to ask.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Apropos of nothing why is it that most of the people who claim Dragon Age is not mature are frequently the same people who describe say, Oghren, as a stereotypical drunken dwarf?

It's almost as if you need to have a certain level of maturity to notice the maturity. Nah, that couldn't be it.  Has to be the level of boobs and/or violence that matters.

In the main game, sure, Oghren has depth.  But I have tried to give him a chance in Awakening, and every time, I become more repelled by how he is written.  It's not very often that I really dislike a Bioware party member, but Oghren in Awakening is a special case.

That kind of interpretation is just the kind I was referring to.  Oghren in DAA is DAO Oghren jumping back on the wagon because he can't handle life.  He's a total mess and he's even more desperate to cover it up than usual. 

If there's a telling difference between DAO and DAA Oghren, it's that the former can take a joke.  In DAA, he has incredibly thin skin because his self-confidence is hanging by a thread.  There are examples of this in banters as well as in conversations with the Warden, in both games.

The issue with Oghren in Awakening, it's that it's super hard to unlock all his dialogues and reveal this.  You basically need a guide.   But it's absolutely there, was clearly intentional, and its heartbreaking.  In short, it's all an act, he's a deeply troubled man.

I don't think it's fair to tell anyone who didn't try extra hard to unlock dialogue with a particularly unpleasant party member that they're immature.  I really don't enjoy seeing alcoholism being played for a laugh in games, due to my own experiences with loved ones, and I'm not a fan of child abandonment being handwaved as no big deal.  So I did try to talk to Oghren, despite my biases, and never unlocked the dialogue you're talking about.  If I even knew it existed, I would have at least gone to YouTube, but this is the first I'm hearing of it.  Most of the time, people who like Oghren seem to think he's a ball of laughs, and don't seem to value the growth that he showed in DA:O.  So yeah, I don't feel immature for missing out on what you're talking about here.

[Cutlass Jack]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Think about it.  This is a guy who starts a family and then makes a conscious decision to join the Grey Wardens, knowing much better than most precisely what that means.  What would possess someone to do that?

"We were roleplaying!"

[wright1978]

Anarya wrote...

I do not agree with you, no.

There should be no limits on what a character of any gender should be able to wear, IF it fits the character.

Agree completely.

[upsettingshorts]

syllogi wrote...

I don't think it's fair to tell anyone who didn't try extra hard to unlock dialogue with a particularly unpleasant party member that they're immature.

It's not, fair that is.  I should have acknowledged that or picked a different example.  Oghren is hardly the only one.

syllogi wrote...

 I really don't enjoy seeing alcoholism being played for a laugh in games, due to my own experiences with loved ones, and I'm not a fan of child abandonment being handwaved as no big deal.

It's not being played for laughs or being handwaved as not a big deal, except by Oghren himself, as a coping mechanism.  But I can understand how from a different perspective this distinction might not matter.

syllogi wrote..

 Most of the time, people who like Oghren seem to think he's a ball of laughs, and don't seem to value the growth that he showed in DA:O.

Hence why he was my go-to example, the characterization is both simplistic and inaccurate, just the kind of face-value judgment that is the opposite of thoughtful analysis.  

But as you said, there's another perfectly reasonable path towards arriving at that conclusion, and it's simply not having gotten far enough in his dialogues to have reason to challenge it.  

I don't really have any issues with the latter, it happens, especially with Oghren in DAA. 

syllogi wrote..

 So yeah, I don't feel immature for missing out on what you're talking about here.

I'd say if you did know about the options and still thought he was drunken comic relief ,then yes.  But if you didn't know then no, I wouldn't say so.

A better example in hindsight would probably have been Anders.  But I'm so sick of having that argument that I picked someone else. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[The Hierophant]

syllogi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Apropos of nothing why is it that most of the people who claim Dragon Age is not mature are frequently the same people who describe say, Oghren, as a stereotypical drunken dwarf?

It's almost as if you need to have a certain level of maturity to notice the maturity. Nah, that couldn't be it.  Has to be the level of boobs and/or violence that matters.

In the main game, sure, Oghren has depth.  But I have tried to give him a chance in Awakening, and every time, I become more repelled by how he is written.  It's not very often that I really dislike a Bioware party member, but Oghren in Awakening is a special case.

That kind of interpretation is just the kind I was referring to.  Oghren in DAA is DAO Oghren jumping back on the wagon because he can't handle life.  He's a total mess and he's even more desperate to cover it up than usual. 

If there's a telling difference between DAO and DAA Oghren, it's that the former can take a joke.  In DAA, he has incredibly thin skin because his self-confidence is hanging by a thread.  There are examples of this in banters as well as in conversations with the Warden, in both games.

The issue with Oghren in Awakening, it's that it's super hard to unlock all his dialogues and reveal this.  You basically need a guide.   But it's absolutely there, was clearly intentional, and its heartbreaking.  In short, it's all an act, he's a deeply troubled man.

I don't think it's fair to tell anyone who didn't try extra hard to unlock dialogue with a particularly unpleasant party member that they're immature.  I really don't enjoy seeing alcoholism being played for a laugh in games, due to my own experiences with loved ones, and I'm not a fan of child abandonment being handwaved as no big deal.  So I did try to talk to Oghren, despite my biases, and never unlocked the dialogue you're talking about.  If I even knew it existed, I would have at least gone to YouTube, but this is the first I'm hearing of it.  Most of the time, people who like Oghren seem to think he's a ball of laughs, and don't seem to value the growth that he showed in DA:O.  So yeah, I don't feel immature for missing out on what you're talking about here.

Oghren's character came full circle in Awakening. The first family he cared for abandoned him because they viewed him as useless, and when he settled down with Felsi he was afraid that he couldn't provide anything for her or the baby because he subconsciously believed he was useless. That's why he used the hurr durr "I only know killing, I'm a warrior." jargon in front of Felsi. Oghren even shows regrets and confides in you his troubles if you have the necessary points. While completing his quest you can steer him on the right path towards being a family man, like spell checking his letters to Felsi, and giving him time off to visit his family. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 octobre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Sylvianus]

syllogi wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Zevran didn't have an iconic look which could fit his personality, it was a generic armor regardless of who he was, so the comparison doesn't hold a lot of water. And from I read, people are more saying, that if it fits the personality, consistent with the character,  even dressed in a more sexy manner, ( with diversity ) according to Bioware, then, there's no reasons why they couldn't do what they want, especially when we'll get customization.

No, they didn't have iconic looks in the first game, except for Morrigan, but yes, I do think you can compare Zevran and Isabela's treatment, since people often say they're a lot alike.  It was not important to give Zevran a "sexy" outfit (like Morrigan got, even though it could be argued that his character is more defined by his sexuality than Morrigan), while people like to say that Isabela doesn't wear armor because that's not the way she was written. 

 I disagree with those who are saying that Isabela couldn't / shouldn't wear an armor, even light, because that's the way she was written. For me, in heavy combat, ( into the deep roads for example ) she could totally wear one ( light ) even if I take into account how she was written. What bothered me is that in DA2, we couldn't change the outfit, ( The two outfits were exactly the same ) but I think otherwise it was great to see something which could fit the personality that was really sexualized.

As for Zevran, it wasn't important and not relevant to give him a " sexy outfit " because with DAO, the concept about identity, iconic look didn't really exist ( a bit ) except for Morrigan like you said. All other characters had generic armors or outfits. This concept didn't really exist with the fanbase either, since we could totally choose how to dress our characters. That's what mattered. ( sigh, good old times ) I really didn't care whether a dress fits the companion's personality or not, that never once crossed my mind. For me the clothes " weren't part of personality " and I had no reasons to think so.

This concept with iconic look that really fits personality into Bioware's games truly begins with Mass effect 2 and DAII. So while Zevran was sexualized with his personality, it's normal if he wasn't designed according to it and if people didn't complain or were totally fine. That wasn't their concern. That's why I am saying you can't really compare Isabela's treatment to Zevran's Treatment, a different process. I would agree with you if this concept was already that important in the past.

syllogi wrote...
I'll hold off judgement on the new customization system until I try it, but it really would be nice if when dressing female characters, it's not an EDI-style Sophie's Choice of "practically naked" or "pronounced ******."  I don't think that's too much to ask.

That seems good to me.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 09:36 .

[Wulfram]

Isabela not wearing armour doesn't bother me too much because rogue Hawke has some non-armour options too. And Varric chest is protected only by the mighty chest hair. Clearly going without armour is a legitimate choice for rogues under this games conventions.

Anyway, swashbucklers don't seem to wear armour in the movies.

[Il Divo]

Sylvianus wrote...

This concept with iconic look that really fits personality into Bioware's games truly begins with Mass effect 2 and DAII. So while Zevran was sexualized with his personality, it's normal if he wasn't designed according to it and if people didn't complain or were totally fine. That wasn't their concern. That's why I am saying you can't really compare Isabela's treatment to Zevran's Treatment, a different process. I would agree with you if this concept was already that important in the past.

The concept actually extends as far back as KotOR and Jade Empire. Every character in KotOR had a unique starter outfit (though Jolee and Juhani are immediately equipped with Jedi robes) and the player was unable to alter any of the Jade Empire companions at all.

Modifié par Il Divo, 02 octobre 2012 - 09:51 .

[Sylvianus]

Didn't play these games, so okay, good to know.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2012 - 09:59 .

[Il Divo]

Yeah, sorry for the derailment. I just always find Bioware history fun to talk about, lame as that might seem.

[Wulfram]

Well in Jade Empire there was no equipment. Except gems for your amulet.

[Giant ambush beetle]

Yaevinn wrote...

What's troubling me, it's the "boob armor". Makes an excellent shot trap, i.e. every bolt deflected may hit the throat or jaw. The ubiquitous decolettage of woman armor makes thing even worse.

Not to mention that falling over with a boob bumps armor would result in a broken spine.
Oh, and its looks just silly.

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

Well in Jade Empire there was no equipment. Except gems for your amulet.

Well, styles also came with their own weapon.  But no there was no inventory aside from the amulent.

[Maria Caliban]

The Woldan wrote...

Not to mention that falling over with a boob bumps armor would result in a broken spine.

You have a vivid imagination.

[drkwaters]

I wanted to create a thread about this, but I suppose I will post it here. I really hope that the Art team recreates the dark spawn. The dark spawn in DA:O were above and beyond superior to the dark spawn in DA 2.

There was a comparison gif going the forums for a bit, but i'm sure someone could find it on google. I'd just like to see them a bit more frightening.

[Zoe]

syllogi wrote...
This whole topic is depressing.  I'd really like women in Bioware games to just be written and designed the same way they would design male characters.  Even Zevran was allowed to wear armor into combat, and there were no complaints that he should have dressed in a more "sexy" manner, or that leather armor "didn't fit his personality."

This!