388 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

I echo Rosa's perspective a lot (Isabela is far and away my favourite NPC in DA2), and I'd say Aveline is right up there (easily my second favourite).

Kudos to the Isabela writer (I actually don't know who did it off the top of my head lol) that head faked everyone with a stereotype and delivered something excellent.

[upsettingshorts]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Kudos to the Isabela writer (I actually don't know who did it off the top of my head lol) that head faked everyone with a stereotype and delivered something excellent.

Sheryl Chee!

[Zubie]

I think Bioware does a pretty decent job with their female characters. I think Miranda is the only character that had me shaking my head every time she (or her butt did anyway) showed up on screen

Isabela was good but I think they kind of overdid it with her "adventurous" personality and attire. I mean no pants? Come on. I found Aveline far more sexy than her.

Ashley in ME1 is my all-time favourite female character in any medium. Damn shame they couldn't hold on to the same writer and look for ME3.

[Sylvianus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I echo Rosa's perspective a lot (Isabela is far and away my favourite NPC in DA2), and I'd say Aveline is right up there (easily my second favourite).

Kudos to the Isabela writer (I actually don't know who did it off the top of my head lol) that head faked everyone with a stereotype and delivered something excellent.

For me, Aveline first, and Isabela my second favourite.  And I agree with mr Gaider. As long as there is diversity, it fits the characters, I don't give a damn whether someone thinks a character is too sexy or too mannish. This kind of discussion always makes me sick. After having read them, ( lot of hyperboles and fanboys for each company / game who fight each other ) you'd think you wouldn't be allowed to do anything.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 septembre 2012 - 09:42 .

[Direwolf0294]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I echo Rosa's perspective a lot (Isabela is far and away my favourite NPC in DA2), and I'd say Aveline is right up there (easily my second favourite).

Kudos to the Isabela writer (I actually don't know who did it off the top of my head lol) that head faked everyone with a stereotype and delivered something excellent.

I don't know about the head faking thing. Isabela was an excellent character, but she's one of BioWare's most stereotypical. She's the sexy female pirate and I knew exactly what sort of character she'd be the moment I saw her in The Hanged Man.

On the thread topic, I've said this many, many times but I don't want to see over sexualised female characters. I don't want to see women running around in bikini armour. BioWare's generally good at this, but they've stepped over the line a few times. The best example I can think of would be Samara. That was just wrong. Jack wearing what she was wearing fitted her character. Miranda's skin tight outfit also sort of fitted her character. What Samara was wearing just didn't fit her character at all. I don't want to see that sort of thing repeated in Dragon Age.

[Allan Schumacher]

easygame88 wrote...

I think Bioware does a pretty decent job with their female characters. I think Miranda is the only character that had me shaking my head every time she (or her butt did anyway) showed up on screen

Isabela was good but I think they kind of overdid it with her "adventurous" personality and attire. I mean no pants? Come on. I found Aveline far more sexy than her.

Ashley in ME1 is my all-time favourite female character in any medium. Damn shame they couldn't hold on to the same writer and look for ME3.

Aside from Miranda's copious camera angle, I actually don't have much issue with her as a character idea.  Although the idea that "life is so hard because I'm so perfect" is a tough perspective to empathize with, which I think makes her more difficult to identify with.  It was a challenging idea for a writer to tackle, IMO.


I also really like Ashley from ME1 as well

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't know about the head faking thing. Isabela was an excellent character, but she's one of BioWare's most stereotypical. She's the sexy female pirate and I knew exactly what sort of character she'd be the moment I saw her in The Hanged Man.

I disagree that she's just "the sexy female pirate." She comes across as simply "token woman for sex appeal" but is a much deeper character than her bravado exterior lets on. Especially with Rivalry IMO.

[Sylvianus]

Miranda's outfit, fits perfectly with her character, it was just the camera angles that bothered me, but otherwise I thought she was well written, while the " my life sucks because i'm too perfect " was difficult to empathize with, I agree. One of the best squadmates from M2. Too bad Bioware neglected her in M3. There was a lot of potential. :/

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[zevranarainais]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...
I don't venture into the DA forums much  so I wouldn't know and if there is any character that screams "sex object" it's Isabella. 

Because I apparently never get tired of making this point:

I'm 100% anti objectification of women in games and one would probably disdainfully call me a "radical feminist," but I think that Isabela is a HUGE step forward and an extremely progressive character.

1. She's not just busty, she's thick. She has big thighs and a bootlicious, curvy figure that's more in line with plus sized models than with implants. Keep in mind she wears a corset. Different body types is awesome and good.

2. She's sex positive and fiercely independant. A romanced Isabela is never "tamed," and she's possibly the first sexy video game female who's treated primarily as a character. It's extremely empowering to see a female character who loves sex. She has banters where she states that she frequently gets called slurs for it but doesn't give a crap because she knows who she is and loves who she is. That's not sex object, that's fierce.

3. She's a woman of colour, and it's awesome seeing important, plot central, "default love interest" women who aren't white. (Less awesome is how official CG renders and marketting whitewashed her like hell.)

4. ISABELA dresses in a corset and tunic and no pants. What do I mean? I mean that BIOWARE didn't dress Isabela that way, unlike Samara or Miranda or even Morrigan, though that one is debatable. I fully believe that Isabela wakes up in the morning and decides that she's going to wear that and she loves wearing it. She's one of the few "sexy" female characters who I actually BELIEVE chooses to wear those clothes, and that's awesome.

Short version, sexy, sensual, busty women exist in the real world. Unforunately, most sexy, sensual, busty women in games aren't fully formed, well thought out characters, but sex dolls posed and designed for the male gaze. If Bioware writes a sexy, sensual, busty character who is an actual character, where the sexy, sensual, busty stuff comes from somewhere and is a PART of her and then actually explores self-worth and indepedence and sex positivity in dialogue, that's not a sex object. That's awesome.

Don't worry; you're not the only one who constantly has to rattle this off (and not just in regards to Dragon Age, but with everything about gender and sex positivity and PEOPLE BEING INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE WITH THEIR OWN TASTES AND CHOICES).  But bravo, because you put it perfectly. 

In any case, the DA2 team did a fantastic job of designing outfits that fit the characters. Not just for Isabela and Aveline and Merrill, but down to Varric, too. No complaints there. 

On the other hand, one thing I'd be interested in seeing is actually a more revealing robe/armor/what-have-you for the PC. I mean, if I'm playing an Isabela-esque character, it'd be nice to be able to strut through the city in something other than thick mage robes and bulky armor, you know? I don't mean, like... boob mail or anything, but something more like the Dream of Antiva set available on the nexus (http://dragonage.nex...s.com/mods/3156).

Maybe that's just me? :x

[DarkKnightHolmes]

If they decide to go another Isabella route, then they should have a man dress up with no pants and wear a very tight shirt with his muscles stick out and his private parts leaving very little for the imagination . Oh wait, the horny straight males won't like that! Never mind.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I echo Rosa's perspective a lot (Isabela is far and away my favourite NPC in DA2), and I'd say Aveline is right up there (easily my second favourite).

Kudos to the Isabela writer (I actually don't know who did it off the top of my head lol) that head faked everyone with a stereotype and delivered something excellent.

I don't know about the head faking thing. Isabela was an excellent character, but she's one of BioWare's most stereotypical. She's the sexy female pirate and I knew exactly what sort of character she'd be the moment I saw her in The Hanged Man. 

She was Sexy, female, and a pirate obviously. But thats not the stereotype I think Allan was referring to. It was more the impression that she's only there to be a sex toy when her motivations are far more complex. Anyone who was truly mad at her actions in the fade, or when she ran off in Act 2, didn't really know her at all.

She's one of my absolute favorite Bioware characters. And yes, of course I love that she's sexy female and a pirate. But I also understood her beneath all of that. Freedom was the most important thing for her, and willingly letting her self be tied to another was the hardest thing she could ever do.  Sex and Piracy were not the most important aspects of her character.

That said, Aveline is full of awesome too. And seeing her relationship with Isabela grow over the course of the story was one of my favorite parts of the game. That was the best example of a rivalry friendship in DA2.

[Cutlass Jack]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

If they decide to go another Isabella route, then they should have a man dress up with no pants and wear a very tight shirt with his muscles stick out and his private parts leaving very little for the imagination . Oh wait, the horny straight males won't like that! Never mind.

Hah you corrected that before I corrected you.

You should check out Tera sometime though. They're very equal opportunity in the half dressed dept.

[Ridwan]

Now hold on there folks, I pay good money to see virtual pixel boobs and that's what I bloody well expect I'll get when I buy Dragon Age 3!

[monima]

hadrain77 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

hadrain77 wrote...

Someone didn't enter the harpy cave or missed Saskia's dream, she may have had armour on but her characterization is nothing compared to Miranda.

Uh what 

If I had to choose from the women of mass effect and Saskia, I'd pick the women of mass effect over a freaky dragon chick who's into gangbangs with dwarves.

The dream in the harpy cave is not Saskias, its someone dreaming about her, if thats what you where thinking about.

Modifié par monimakitten, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[hobbit of the shire]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Godwood I meant Aveline was too much because it seemed they tried to make her a man and it is hard to explain it felt artificial I don't know

WTF... Aveline wasn't made into a man.  She's just a well-built woman that wears armor the way that armor should probably look.  I'd take her over Isabela any day.  Isabela, now she looks artificial (probably is partially artificial...lol).

Because this is entertainment, we want the sexy and powerful and muscular and handsome blah blah blah.  But it should always be tasteful and never sexist, which I think games (or their audiences) are failing at.

[upsettingshorts]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

never sexist, which I think games (or their audiences) are failing at.

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

Isabela, now she looks artificial (probably is partially artificial...lol)

Whoops.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

simfamSP wrote...

The Witcher 2 isn't sexist, its characters are, and this is due to the setting, not the writing. I would find it unbelievable that such a medieval society would not be sexist. If you're accusing TW2 to be sexist, then A Song of Ice and Fire is too. Yet we both know how strong the female characters are in both settings. Even Cersei, that crazy **** who thinks she's Tywin reborn is nothing like the social norm.

Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  They are not even historical fiction.  They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

However.

I have not played enough of The Witcher 2 to comment authoritatively on its content, I will leave that to others.  That does not, on the other hand, preclude me from challenging arguments that are as broad as yours.  

The Witcher 1, well, let's just say I don't expect much argument over the sexism in that one.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:30 .

[Shevy]

I would love to see some variety in the character models, especially in the one for the random NPC's. I know female Hawke, Isabela, Bethany and Flemeth had different and unique (?) body models. But the normal NPC's used the same and sometimes it felt kind of awkward (Leandra)
Besides that I'm very happy with their female body models and armours. Only few seem unpractical and nearly none reaches the "mail bikini" thing. ( Although Wynne with the chasind vestment ... urgh)

[GGW KillerTiger]

Yea if I get a female companion/player character who's armor is just a metal bikini top and metal bikini bottom I'll just not get the game ....

[Dean_the_Young]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

I think Bioware does a pretty decent job with their female characters. I think Miranda is the only character that had me shaking my head every time she (or her butt did anyway) showed up on screen

Isabela was good but I think they kind of overdid it with her "adventurous" personality and attire. I mean no pants? Come on. I found Aveline far more sexy than her.

Ashley in ME1 is my all-time favourite female character in any medium. Damn shame they couldn't hold on to the same writer and look for ME3.

Aside from Miranda's copious camera angle, I actually don't have much issue with her as a character idea.  Although the idea that "life is so hard because I'm so perfect" is a tough perspective to empathize with, which I think makes her more difficult to identify with.  It was a challenging idea for a writer to tackle, IMO.

If that was the idea at all. Myself, I never bought into the perfection angle as her writing strategy: not least because I'd expect social skills to be a pretty important part of 'perfection', and Miranda (is deliberatly written to) gives a semi-hostile first impression. An exceptionally skilled person who holds to exceptional standards? Sure. More than that?

My main grief with Miranda is that she's a tsundere on a ship more or less stacked with tsundere archetypes. Call it an over-abundance of 'tough girls who are actually softies on the inside', but she just seemed... redundant.


I knew it would never be, but I honestly found myself hoping that Miranda only faked being turned by Shepard against Cerberus. Miranda actually being a true believer who just acted in a way to appeal to the player's ego, making you think you had thawed the ice queen and flipped her against her loyalties, would have been an actual surprise nd something I would have applauded.

Of course, this is the same part of me who can't quite trust a Hardened Leliana romance when she boasts about how she could wrap anyone around her finger, but no you're different Warden really. Which is to say, I loved to doubt her.

I also really like Ashley from ME1 as well

You know something I really, really had wished had come up in ME3? The Bear and Dog analogy.

It's pretty appropriate in the early-game, when the Council really does leave Humanity to the Bear while they try to run away. Along with the Dirty Secret of all the Council Races, the Asari's secrete Prothean data trove is also a vindication of Ashley's cynicism: the other races are all looking out for themselves first and foremost, and would let down others who relied on them to be fair.

At the same time, the end-game can reverse that conclusion by adding onto the analogy: sure, the Council tried to let their dog occupy the bear, but when they realized the bear would catch them next they came back. It's not quite a triumph of idealism, but the master will sometimes fight the bear with the dog.

[upsettingshorts]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know something I really, really had wished had come up in ME3? The Bear and Dog analogy.

It would not have been entirely inappropriate for the game to have been titled:  "Mass Effect 3: Ashley Was Right."

...also she wasn't racist and people who keep saying this continue to infuriate me years later.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:09 .

[Allan Schumacher]

If that was the idea at all. Myself, I never bought into the perfection angle as her writing strategy: not least because I'd expect social skills to be a pretty important part of 'perfection', and Miranda (is deliberatly written to) gives a semi-hostile first impression. An exceptionally skilled person who holds to exceptional standards? Sure. More than that?

Interesting point. Though I suppose one could say that the distinction could be made about being physically perfect and "socially perfect."

Barring preventing Miranda from having the ability to exercise free well, she's also the genetic engineering project of someone that could easily have lacked in social graces himself.

I knew it would never be, but I honestly found myself hoping that Miranda only faked being turned by Shepard against Cerberus. Miranda actually being a true believer who just acted in a way to appeal to the player's ego, making you think you had thawed the ice queen and flipped her against her loyalties, would have been an actual surprise nd something I would have applauded.

I would have loved this. Though seeing the reaction Jacob had (which while still believable, stung to players that romanced Jacob) it would have been even more of a shark tank on the ME3 forums I think haha.

[upsettingshorts]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My main grief with Miranda is that she's a tsundere on a ship more or less stacked with tsundere archetypes. Call it an over-abundance of 'tough girls who are actually softies on the inside', but she just seemed... redundant.

That ice queen melted all the way to the extent that if you romanced her in Mass Effect 2, you can't break up with her in ME3 or she dies.