388 réponses à ce sujet

[Bfler]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  

The setting of Witcher is based upon the time of WW2. It is obvious when you read the books of Andrzej Sapkowski, f.e. Nilfgaard is Germany with such things like elves representing SS elite soldiers. 

[Boh22]

garrusfan1 wrote...

 Alright when your making female characters make them look more like saskia (from the witcher 2) then jack from ME2 by that I mean don't make them go into battle half naked a little suggestive is fine but it gets ridiculous after a point. I am a guy and I still think it is stupid to make them so edgy. Issabela from DA2 should be as far as you go in matters of how they are dressed. Does anyone agree with me

Edit the past dragon age games have done well with this so I want them to keep it that way.

You mean the tomboy lesbian style characters? Would you like to talk about your secret fetish?

[upsettingshorts]

Bfler wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  

The setting of Witcher is based upon the time of WW2. It is obvious when you read the books of Andrzej Sapkowski, f.e. Nilfgaard is Germany with such things like elves representing SS elite soldiers. 

That would fall under "vaguely inspired by."

Unless I missed the part in TW1 where Hitler broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.  Or didn't, in the case of historical fiction.

[Urazz]

Ummm...Wasn't Jack's appearance in ME3 much better than it was in ME2? I think Bioware learned their lesson on making characters like Jack that are half naked for no reason.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Urazz wrote...

Ummm...Wasn't Jack's appearance in ME3 much better than it was in ME2? I think Bioware learned their lesson on making characters like Jack that are half naked for no reason.

Then they went out of their way to screw up with Ashley.

[upsettingshorts]

Urazz wrote...

Ummm...Wasn't Jack's appearance in ME3 much better than it was in ME2? I think Bioware learned their lesson on making characters like Jack that are half naked for no reason.

Jack's outfit in ME3 was - and this is not as paradoxical as it sounds - more revealing despite possessing more fabric.

The white "shirt" parts effectively drew flattering lines across her torso ("here is her stomach" and "here is her cleavage" etc), whereas the simple vertical straps and total coverage of tattoos that comprised her ME2 outfit actually succeeded more in concealing her features.  The tats were so comprehensive that they almost looked like a (skin tight) long sleeve shirt.  The negative space in her new outfit, if I'm using the right term, shatters that illusion by drawing attention to her features in a way the old outfit didn't.

But yeah, Ashley... sigh.  That outfit was worse before the colors were made more uniform , and even then... garters, butt cleavage...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:28 .

[Das Tentakel]

simfamSP wrote...

If the setting is medieval Europe with Elves, Dwarves and monsters then the writers try to parallel that as possible, no? Dragon Age doesn't want to do that, and so it doesn't. The Witcher (an ASOIAF) do, and so it does. Men call women 'wenches' and commit adultery on plain sight. 

So infact, you could say the 'setting' is sexist, but I'm defending the game and its characters along with the writer's intentions.

I think a big difference between The Witcher, or Game of Thrones, or any other fantasy setting that started out as a literary creation and RPG settings is that the former can afford (perhaps even must) to go for a 'plausible context' with a more direct link with reality (historical or otherwise). RPG settings, particularly pen & paper and CRPG settings that try to appeal to both men and women, can't do that. There has to be a form of equal opportunity, and that means that one large, if uncomfortable, part of reality has to be thrown out or severely toned down. I like The Witcher's setting for being more 'raw' and having very strong 'echoes' of European, particularly East Central European, history, but I am not sure it's a good setting for a game in which you can create both male and female characters and that tries to appeal to both sexes. That actually also applies to Game of Thrones, were being a female fighter is very, very, very exceptional.

It's one aspect of the DA universe where I don't mind suspending my disbelief, though a bit more subtlety here and there would be nice.<_<

[Dean_the_Young]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If that was the idea at all. Myself, I never bought into the perfection angle as her writing strategy: not least because I'd expect social skills to be a pretty important part of 'perfection', and Miranda (is deliberatly written to) gives a semi-hostile first impression. An exceptionally skilled person who holds to exceptional standards? Sure. More than that?

Interesting point. Though I suppose one could say that the distinction could be made about being physically perfect and "socially perfect."

Barring preventing Miranda from having the ability to exercise free well, she's also the genetic engineering project of someone that could easily have lacked in social graces himself.

Ah, but then she wouldn't be perfect, would she?

Call it a personal thing, but I'm of the breed that considers mental health just as important as physical health for soldiers and the sort. Good bodies with bad minds don't do good work, and emotionally inept/traumatized children don't make perfect soldiers.

Granted, most of that last bit is a reaction to the anime/game trope of 'perfect, emotionless soldiers who have lost their humanity', but I think the principle can extend to Miranda. For someone who's supposed to be an amazing project lead and tactician, she seems to be a bit socially... inept.

Which is why I think they only way for her to fulfill the idea of being 'perfect' is for her to fake the flaws. (Heh.)

I knew it would never be, but I honestly found myself hoping that Miranda only faked being turned by Shepard against Cerberus. Miranda actually being a true believer who just acted in a way to appeal to the player's ego, making you think you had thawed the ice queen and flipped her against her loyalties, would have been an actual surprise nd something I would have applauded.

I would have loved this. Though seeing the reaction Jacob had (which while still believable, stung to players that romanced Jacob) it would have been even more of a shark tank on the ME3 forums I think haha.

A delicious, delicious gnashing of teeth and wailing.

Actually, it wasn't that bad: let me find where I posted that whole outline. It got in the Miranda Fan Threat at some point, and to my surprise a lot of her fans actually enjoyed.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My main grief with Miranda is that she's a tsundere on a ship more or less stacked with tsundere archetypes. Call it an over-abundance of 'tough girls who are actually softies on the inside', but she just seemed... redundant.

That ice queen melted all the way to the extent that if you romanced her in Mass Effect 2, you can't break up with her in ME3 or she dies.

Ouch. Not a recipie for a strong, independent character of any gender.

Not, mind you, that I couldn't see it being done well as a character flaw in someone else. Alistair could come close (the lover-sacrifice on the Tower is something I still consider brilliantly written), but an actual character who could get over-invested in a relationship with the player?

Not all relationships are healthy (I'm looking at you, rival-mances), but that doesn't mean they can't be interesting. I could see having a character who, while pretty normal and effective and all, can't handle a breakup in a composed manner and a straight head when under the pressure of the end of the world as we know it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Actually, it wasn't that bad: let me find where I posted that whole outline. It got in the Miranda Fan Threat at some point, and to my surprise a lot of her fans actually enjoyed.

Here you gol Alan, and anyone who might be interest in a Judas-style character betrayal.

Had to drag it out of PM, amongst a few dozen other ideas.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[Pedrak]

Quite simply, I believe a character's clothes (and design in general) should fit his/her personality.

Isabela was an adventuress, a seductress, so her sexy attire made sense. Jack was damaged goods and Miranda was vain, smug and had a very high reputation of herself, so even her oversexed outfits were somewhat justified by her continuous attempts to impress others and to stand out.

Aveline was stoic and extremely serious and Merrill was ìshy and naive, so, accordingly, they dressed conservatively.

As for Bio's female characters being devoid of flaws... seriously? Ashley had a streak of racism, Jaheira was blunt, Viconia and Morrigan were essentially evil, Jack was hardly a nice person, even Liara gained a few renegade points along the way. Sure, there are brighter, more positive female characters like Aerie, Tali, Dawn Star, Leliana, who managed to keep a sunnier attitude in spite of their not always pleasant pasts... but not every character needs to be dark and troubled.

It becomes boring.

Modifié par Pedrak, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[Darth Death]

If you want to know how many fashion designers exist on BSN, they all dwell here.

[upsettingshorts]

Darth Death wrote...

If you want to know how many fashion designers exist on BSN, they all dwell here.

Pretty sure the noble clothes in Origins would have scared away any real fashion designers years ago.

[Chipaway111]

What Isabela wore made sense for her, sure combat wise it got a little iffy but video game logic is always a perplexing thing.

I loved her character, and funnily enough the first (fine, second) thing I noticed about her body was how strong she looked. The muscles in her arms, the thicker thighs, she wasn't just a matchstick with strategically placed melons.

Jack is a person who really does not give one single er... crap, about what people think. Her outfit reflects this, the tattoos which actually distracted people from the fact she was pretty much shirtless, the convict styled pants, heavy combat boots. BioWare could have made her the same but with more feminine features (giving her long hair, less abrasive personality, giant breasts) but they didn't, they stayed true to what someone like her would dress like (and perhaps a little more stylized).

Miranda? She's 'perfect', she says straight up her body is designed to be that way. Who wouldn't use that to their advantage by dressing in a catsuit? Sure it hugs everything, but does it actively reveal everything with bare flesh? No. Miranda's actual personality is conservative but not subtle. If that makes any sense, I admit it's hard to defend her when the camera does everything it can to draw attention her butt.

Samara I just don't know how to explain, I think maybe just hint at cleavage rather than wave it at us, considering she's from an ancient order dress codes may have been a little more conservative then, but her characters so strong and I love her so much I don't care.

But this is all just my opinion


Edit: Conservative is the wrong word for what Miranda is like, but it's hard for me to find the right one, withdrawn? 

Modifié par Chipaway111, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Das Tentakel wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

If the setting is medieval Europe with Elves, Dwarves and monsters then the writers try to parallel that as possible, no? Dragon Age doesn't want to do that, and so it doesn't. The Witcher (an ASOIAF) do, and so it does. Men call women 'wenches' and commit adultery on plain sight. 

So infact, you could say the 'setting' is sexist, but I'm defending the game and its characters along with the writer's intentions.

I think a big difference between The Witcher, or Game of Thrones, or any other fantasy setting that started out as a literary creation and RPG settings is that the former can afford (perhaps even must) to go for a 'plausible context' with a more direct link with reality (historical or otherwise). RPG settings, particularly pen & paper and CRPG settings that try to appeal to both men and women, can't do that. There has to be a form of equal opportunity, and that means that one large, if uncomfortable, part of reality has to be thrown out or severely toned down. 

There is no such obligation. RPG settings can be crafted just like any other setting in any other medium. All it needs is the ability to roleplay. Making a PC setting is Bioware's preogative, and no one else has to conform to that.

[frostajulie]

I like skimpy sexualized outfits as an option.

[darkway1]

Honestly guy's,Bioware develops some of the best and most unique characters in the video game industry.....if the character needs to be naked or covered from head to toe in armour,so be it,character design is some thing Bioware excels at.

Modifié par darkway1, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:23 .

[Dragoonlordz]

JusticarFlareon wrote...

None of the female DA2 characters went into battle half-naked. Isabela was dressed pretty conservatively compared to many other females in different games.

Speak for yourself mine went in battle naked (mods for everything these days)...

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:24 .

[addiction21]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

If you want to know how many fashion designers exist on BSN, they all dwell here.

Pretty sure the noble clothes in Origins would have scared away any real fashion designers years ago.

And the mage hats. We must never forget the mage hats.

Anyway BioWare has been fine. True there are some emberassments out there like Mirandas low angle booty camera or Liaras redesign in ME3 but its far from the norm to me.

Modifié par addiction21, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:30 .

[hadrain77]

monimakitten wrote...

hadrain77 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

hadrain77 wrote...

Someone didn't enter the harpy cave or missed Saskia's dream, she may have had armour on but her characterization is nothing compared to Miranda.

Uh what 

If I had to choose from the women of mass effect and Saskia, I'd pick the women of mass effect over a freaky dragon chick who's into gangbangs with dwarves.

The dream in the harpy cave is not Saskias, its someone dreaming about her, if thats what you where thinking about.

I’m very aware that the dream isn’t Saskia’s but are you aware that there were enough hints in the game to tell you that those weren’t exactly dreams you found in those caves. Even if they were dreams they were dreams that where based in reality, take the dragon’s dream it really happened like that. There were other things that made it pretty clear the virgin wasn’t a virgin, listen to the dwarves in the inn, Saskia herself tells you she’s into dwarves when you ask her.

This thread is pretty much the over-sexualization of bioware women because of what they wear, probably why we’re seeing images of Miranda’s butt, Samara’s breast, Isabella’s outfit. I’d just rather they be judged on how they’re portrayed.

[Zkyire]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

Isabella's outfit suited her character, but not her role (in combat at any rate).

Scantily clad in her off hours? Suited her perfectly.

Going into combat with not a single shred of anything that could be called armour (especially since she wasn't a mage and had no magical protection) would be suicide.

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

It's impossible to have too much sexy.

Modifié par Emzamination, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[Blackrising]

Hmm, I honestly never cared that Isabela was dressed in a lot less fabric than most people or that Jack's torso was only covered in a belt. It's part of the character and that's fine. Am I a 'bad' woman for not really caring if women in games are designed (clothes-wise) in a way that appeals to the eye?
Isabela's and Samara's 'boobs of non-existant gravity' bothered me more, to be honest. Sure, Isabela wears a corset, but even then boobs don't usually float like that.
But hey, look at my avatar. I'm a Miranda fan. It never bothered me that she was designed to be 'perfect' or that the camera zoomed in on her butt every five seconds.

What I can't stand, however, is if a female character is obviously just there to pander to the male demographic. Personality- and appearance-wise. And I honestly can't think of a way to explain it, since I don't know what triggers that reaction from me. And I can't give an example, because that has never happened in any Bioware game to date.*shrug*

[Macross]

Zkyire wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

Isabella's outfit suited her character, but not her role (in combat at any rate).

Scantily clad in her off hours? Suited her perfectly.

Going into combat with not a single shred of anything that could be called armour (especially since she wasn't a mage and had no magical protection) would be suicide.

That really kind of depends. Here you've got to seperate what her actual fighting style would be from the gameplay. If she were fighting in real life, her fighting style would probably rely almost entirely on speed and dodging, her best defense would be not being hit or using one of her blade to deflect (not block) any attack coming at her, and any big bulky armour would work against that (shin guards or small shoulder guards would be fine, but actual torso peices or legging-no), that's why her outfit actual does make sense for her fighting style but that fighting style isn't really translated over into gameplay which is mostly a stand in one place dishing out attacks type of gameplay. 

It's another story v game play segregation thing.

EDIT: God damn the grammer and spelling was terrible in that paragraph.

Modifié par Macross, 30 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .