388 réponses à ce sujet

[AndrahilAdrian]

Zkyire wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

Isabella's outfit suited her character, but not her role (in combat at any rate).

Scantily clad in her off hours? Suited her perfectly.

Going into combat with not a single shred of anything that could be called armour (especially since she wasn't a mage and had no magical protection) would be suicide.

Isabela is a pirate. Wearing armor on a dinky sailing ship is a great way to drown. Presumably, she learned to fight without armor. You could say that her fighting without armor should be no match for a heavily armored oponent, but I think some inacuracy there is justified in the name of game balance.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

garrusfan1 wrote...

MillKill wrote...

Didn't they do just what you're asking for with Aveline, Bethany, and Merrill?

Yeah I should have clarified that they should keep it up although Aveline was too much

You see people, Aveline was 'too much' because we gamers don't play games to be politically correct. That is not to say we want massive balloon boobs in all our games, but a little fan service is not only welcome but also strongly recommmended. 

I think the problem with Aveline's uniform was that it covered too much surface and leaves so much area for improvement. Why not at least give her a chainmail bra instead of dressing her up in full plate? That not only rectifies the 'I wanna bang this' factor of BioWare games but also reinforces the lovely redhead as a person in a position of power.

[Shinobu]

I think the costumes have been appropriate to the characters. I would, however, like to speak up about the inflation of breasts and butts. To use a Mass Effect example, I'm ok with Jack's shirt made of belts in ME2 because she isn't overendowed to boot. The steady inflation of FemSheps boobs and ass over the trilogy was offputting, though. And I would have found Isabella less offensive if she wore the same costume but didn't have gravity defying DD breasts. Morrigan's DAO costume was also fine due to the lack of melons, though twine-tied nipples seems really uncomfortable.

So, I'm fine with a sexy/scantily clad character or two as long as their bodies are not overendowed to reinforce the unrealistic expectations of teenage gamers.

And for the record, I liked Aveline's outfit.

Modifié par Shinobu, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:12 .

[TheRealJayDee]

easygame88 wrote...

Ashley in ME1 is my all-time favourite female character in any medium. Damn shame they couldn't hold on to the same writer and look for ME3.

Agreed!

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know something I really, really had wished had come up in ME3? The Bear and Dog analogy.

It would not have been entirely inappropriate for the game to have been titled:  "Mass Effect 3: Ashley Was Right."

...also she wasn't racist and people who keep saying this continue to infuriate me years later.

Oh, so agreed...!

[Zkyire]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

Isabella's outfit suited her character, but not her role (in combat at any rate).

Scantily clad in her off hours? Suited her perfectly.

Going into combat with not a single shred of anything that could be called armour (especially since she wasn't a mage and had no magical protection) would be suicide.

Isabela is a pirate. Wearing armor on a dinky sailing ship is a great way to drown. Presumably, she learned to fight without armor. You could say that her fighting without armor should be no match for a heavily armored oponent, but I think some inacuracy there is justified in the name of game balance.

Fighting with heavy armour on a ship is a good way to get yourself drowned to be sure, but Isabella's only time on a ship in DA2 was before she even met Hawke. She had years to put some armour on.

[syllogi]

Zkyire wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

Isabella's outfit suited her character, but not her role (in combat at any rate).

Scantily clad in her off hours? Suited her perfectly.

Going into combat with not a single shred of anything that could be called armour (especially since she wasn't a mage and had no magical protection) would be suicide.

Isabela is a pirate. Wearing armor on a dinky sailing ship is a great way to drown. Presumably, she learned to fight without armor. You could say that her fighting without armor should be no match for a heavily armored oponent, but I think some inacuracy there is justified in the name of game balance.

Fighting with heavy armour on a ship is a good way to get yourself drowned to be sure, but Isabella's only time on a ship in DA2 was before she even met Hawke. She had years to put some armour on.

Yeah, I think that Isabela is practical when she needs to be, even if she's also conscious of her appearance.  She could have easily found a way to make leather armor look sexy in seven years in Kirkwall.

[legbamel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Aside from Miranda's copious camera angle, I actually don't have much issue with her as a character idea.  Although the idea that "life is so hard because I'm so perfect" is a tough perspective to empathize with, which I think makes her more difficult to identify with.  It was a challenging idea for a writer to tackle, IMO.

If that was the idea at all. Myself, I never bought into the perfection angle as her writing strategy: not least because I'd expect social skills to be a pretty important part of 'perfection', and Miranda (is deliberatly written to) gives a semi-hostile first impression. An exceptionally skilled person who holds to exceptional standards? Sure. More than that?

My main grief with Miranda is that she's a tsundere on a ship more or less stacked with tsundere archetypes. Call it an over-abundance of 'tough girls who are actually softies on the inside', but she just seemed... redundant.

I knew it would never be, but I honestly found myself hoping that Miranda only faked being turned by Shepard against Cerberus. Miranda actually being a true believer who just acted in a way to appeal to the player's ego, making you think you had thawed the ice queen and flipped her against her loyalties, would have been an actual surprise nd something I would have applauded.

Of course, this is the same part of me who can't quite trust a Hardened Leliana romance when she boasts about how she could wrap anyone around her finger, but no you're different Warden really. Which is to say, I loved to doubt her.

I fully expected Miranda to betray Shepard and that I would find her right at TIM's side in ME3.  To me, she was utterly weakened in that game.  She's the character I love to hate from ME2 and I wanted more from her than weak bravado and desperation.

The only thing that really bothered me about her outfit, besides the forced booty shots, was that Jacob (as her subordinate in the beginning) spent the whole game in a matching body suit.  That speaks to a torch still burning somewhere, methinks.  I rather expected them to get back together if Shep showed no interest in either of them, particularly after Jacob's loyalty mission.

Erm...to get back on-topic, Isabela's outfit bothered me at first but after I actually "got to know" her character I completely stopped noticing it except the occasional <_< when I was "treated" to another thong shot.  Morrigan, however, was put into something more practical and comfortable at the earliest possible opportunity.  I never saw her as someone who would bother trying to seduce random passers by or put herself on display in any way except when trying to use the Warden for some nefarious purpose.  I hated that her best robes were just a redux of her beginning outfit.  I may or may not have taken malicious pleasure in putting her in various mage hats. 

[d-boy15]

well, I think Angelica from On Stranger Tides is the good example of how to create a sexy
looking female character that look capable of fighting without wearing armor.

[Cutlass Jack]

Zkyire wrote...

Fighting with heavy armour on a ship is a good way to get yourself drowned to be sure, but Isabella's only time on a ship in DA2 was before she even met Hawke. She had years to put some armour on.

When her entire fighting style is based around not getting hit, the last thing she needs to do is sacrifice her mobility by wearing heavy armor.

Swashbucklers are all about looking good, parrying and keeping mobile. That's true if you're Isabela, Errol Flynn, Dartagnan or the Dread Pirate Roberts.

[GreenSoda]

d-boy15 wrote...

well, I think Angelica from On Stranger Tides is the good example of how to create a sexy
looking female character that look capable of fighting without wearing armor.

And what exactly is "sexy" about this outfit ? The actress looks good, of course (surprise) -but that outfit is pretty conservative.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bfler wrote...

The setting of Witcher is based upon the time of WW2. It is obvious when you read the books of Andrzej Sapkowski, f.e. Nilfgaard is Germany with such things like elves representing SS elite soldiers. 

That would fall under "vaguely inspired by."

Unless I missed the part in TW1 where Hitler broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.  Or didn't, in the case of historical fiction.

There is, in fact, something you could consider a strong analogy in the Witcher books between Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact -- Nilfgaard and northern kingdom of Kaedwen end up dividing Aedirn in the early part of the conflict (iirc). Eventually Nilfgaard breaks that truce and pushes farther north.

Sapkowski's writing can be probably more accurately described as "toying with historical elements" than 'vaguely inspired'. If the armies of Nilfgaard operate using blitzkrieg tactics and use naming scheme of German WW2 army e.g., it's more to invoke certain tone to the image of Nilfgaard, rather than 'a vague reference for the sake of reference'

[tmp7704]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I disagree that she's just "the sexy female pirate." She comes across as simply "token woman for sex appeal" but is a much deeper character than her bravado exterior lets on. Especially with Rivalry IMO.

I'd have to say Isabela played out very much like the "lovable rogue hiding the heart of gold and some skeletons in the closet" type of character to me. Between the overall attitude and the fear of commitment she feels very similar to Zevran.

I don't really consider it a "deeper character", unless it's supposed to be relatively deeper to 'token woman for sex appeal' like you say, because that view would cover only about half of her... but to view the character as only that, 'sex appeal token' it'd require pretty much myopia from the reader/viewer, imo. And if the character is deeper than that, it's not much of a feat.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Zoe]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

My question is, why don't the male character designs also have a similar spectrum of representation? As far as male character designs go, there is never a male equivalent of Isabela's outfit.

My personal preference is for practical armor for everyone, but if that is not the style the art team likes, at least they could have a consistent art style for male and female armor and characters.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know something I really, really had wished had come up in ME3? The Bear and Dog analogy.

It would not have been entirely inappropriate for the game to have been titled:  "Mass Effect 3: Ashley Was Right."

It would also have been an apt subtitle for ME2, considering the Council threw not only humanity, but Shepard, under the bus therein.

I may or may not have taken malicious pleasure in putting her in various mage hats.

Mage hats get far too much hate. I mainly rolled a rogue, and everyone (including the Warden) wore them.

/derail

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[tmp7704]

Keriana wrote...

My question is, why don't the male character designs also have a similar spectrum of representation? As far as male character designs go, there is never a male equivalent of Isabela's outfit.

Well, Varric shows off as much cleavage as Isabela does. The question is perhaps a bit disingenuous -- as bare male thighs don't seem to be viewed equally in terms of sex-appeal e.g., so it's not as common to leave these areas exposed. Consequently, a character who would actually go around exposing these parts would appear quite more flamboyant than female in the exact same gear.

Or to put it differently, a male equivalent of Isabela's outfit wouldn't necessarily look identical. Similar to how male barbarian with naked torso and female barbarian with naked torso wouldn't be generally considered straight equivalents of each other.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[Blooddrunk1004]

hadrain77 wrote...

Someone didn't enter the harpy cave or missed Saskia's dream, she may have had armour on but her characterization is nothing compared to Miranda.

First of all that dream never happened. Secondly it's not Saskia's dream it's a dream of some dwarven peasant.
I don't think someone like Saskia who is leader and shapeshifter would do this kind of thing anyway.

[Seifer006]

garrusfan1 wrote...

 I mean don't make them go into battle half naked Does anyone agree with me

Fixed:

Yes! I Agree 100%

[Zoe]

tmp7704 wrote...
Well, Varric shows off as much cleavage as Isabela does. The question is perhaps a bit disingenuous -- as bare male thighs don't seem to be viewed equally in terms of sex-appeal e.g., so it's not as common to leave these areas exposed. Consequently, a character who would actually go around exposing these parts would appear quite more flamboyant than female in the exact same gear. Or to put it differently, a male equivalent of Isabela's outfit wouldn't necessarily look identical.

I didn't mean to say that a male equivalent outfit would look identical to Isabela's outfit in every way. However, to me, Varric's outfit is not equivalent at all. My question was about the concept of spectrum of representation.

[hoorayforicecream]

tmp7704 wrote...

I'd have to say Isabela played out very much like the "lovable rogue hiding the heart of gold and some skeletons in the closet" type of character to me. Between the overall attitude and the fear of commitment she feels very similar to Zevran.

I don't really consider it a "deeper character", unless it's supposed to be relatively deeper to 'token woman for sex appeal' like you say, because that view would cover only about half of her... but to view the character as only that, 'sex appeal token' it'd require pretty much myopia from the reader/viewer, imo. And if the character is deeper than that, it's not much of a feat.

A sex-positive woman without a lot of emotional baggage in fantasy is a rarity. A woman who enjoys her life, is confident about her choices, and isn't ashamed of just being who she wishes to be is also a rarity. Further, her evolving friendship with Aveline, and her big sisterly relationship with Merrill also push her squarely into an area that is not often explored in a genre where women are so often defined by their relationships with men and/or past trauma. The reason I enjoyed Isabela as a character wasn't so much that she was so much deeper than anyone, but that she was a multifaceted character who did not fall into the traditional sort of fantasy tropes that the majority of her predecessors did.

Perhaps the amount of depth to Isabela isn't that super deep, but the writers' choice of having a woman do these things and cultivate these relationships in a positive way is extremely refreshing. The fact that she challenges traditional gender roles and tropes in gaming is what makes her different, memorable, and wonderful.

This is probably why I find the latest stories in the comics so damn awful. They're doing a wonderful job of erasing what makes Isabela special by turning her into another stereotypical angsty victim of past trauma.

[Zoe]

Seifer006 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

 I mean don't make them go into battle half naked Does anyone agree with me

Fixed:

Yes! I Agree 100%

I also agree.

[CARL_DF90]

I'd say that there comes a time when common sense should kick in and people in the game world should say to themselves, "Hmm, maybe it really isn't a good idea to go into battle wearing nothing but cotton." With all the fight they get into it's ridiculous to think that they wouldn't want some protection. With Isabella, some skin tight leather looking material would be fine in the pants department because it would still allow her to show off her "attributes", and the would definitely be within character. Still, some light "rogue" armor like the kind shown in DA:O would be very fitting. (no pun intended) That really is the bottom line here: have attire that is within the realms of both character and freaking common sense, not over the top ridiculous.

[Ianamus]

I generally don't mind what female characters wear as long as it makes sense for the character to be wearing clothes like that.

One thing that I really dislike is the shy, naive and virginal girl in skimpy clothing with her body all on display that you see in many an anime and game, because in reality an introverted and unconfident person wouldn't walk around wearing practically nothing.

Equally bad is the "badass strong female" who talks about how much she hates men and isnt a sex object, but is walking around with her cleavage on display, begging the question of why, if she doesn't want men looking at her, she doesn't just cover up.

I have no issue with characters like Isabela. She likes sex so she wears skimpy clothing to attract men, it's simple and it makes sense for her character. I also don't think that the idea of a woman wanting sex immediately makes her a sex object either, it's consistent with her background and her behavior, and outside of her sex appeal she is a well developed character with her own goals, motivations and secrets.

Modifié par EJ107, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[tmp7704]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

A sex-positive woman without a lot of emotional baggage in fantasy is a rarity. A woman who enjoys her life, is confident about her choices, and isn't ashamed of just being who she wishes to be is also a rarity. Further, her evolving friendship with Aveline, and her big sisterly relationship with Merrill also push her squarely into an area that is not often explored in a genre where women are so often defined by their relationships with men and/or past trauma. The reason I enjoyed Isabela as a character wasn't so much that she was so much deeper than anyone, but that she was a multifaceted character who did not fall into the traditional sort of fantasy tropes that the majority of her predecessors did.

Mhmm, i'd argue that this very description of Isabela you have here makes her a very simple character rather than multifaceted -- a Jacob minus daddy issues, so to speak. I think you're right though the female friendship angle isn't too often explored in the western games, so she can at least appear somewhat different because of that to some people.

... Although that may well be because it's rare to have more than one female character in the cast of these games to begin with. So maybe that's why the existence of relationship between women in DA2 didn't strike me as making specifically Isabela someone unordinary -- her developing bonds with other women in the cast is after all no different from the others developing the bonds with her.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[Zkyire]

syllogi wrote...

Yeah, I think that Isabela is practical when she needs to be, even if she's also conscious of her appearance.  She could have easily found a way to make leather armor look sexy in seven years in Kirkwall.

Aye. Something akin to what she wore in DA:O. Basically boiled/studded leather, it's relatively light, protects the body from glancing blows (which, realistically, can also be lifesaving as even a light cut can cause a bad infection without proper medical care), and in keeping with Isabella's personality, can still show a bit of skin here and there.

Cutlass Jack wrote...

When
her entire fighting style is based around not getting hit, the last
thing she needs to do is sacrifice her mobility by wearing heavy armor.

Swashbucklers
are all about looking good, parrying and keeping mobile. That's true if
you're Isabela, Errol Flynn, Dartagnan or the Dread Pirate Roberts.

D'Artagnan was supposed to be a Musketeer in the 17th century. They didn't use armour because they had guns. Guns made armour effectively irrelevant. So they mostly didn't bother manufacturing it anymore.

In DA they're still using bows, besides, Isabella could wear *light* armour. I'm not expecting her to come out in full plate.

Modifié par Zkyire, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Monica21]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

I'd say that there comes a time when common sense should kick in and people in the game world should say to themselves, "Hmm, maybe it really isn't a good idea to go into battle wearing nothing but cotton." With all the fight they get into it's ridiculous to think that they wouldn't want some protection. With Isabella, some skin tight leather looking material would be fine in the pants department because it would still allow her to show off her "attributes", and the would definitely be within character. Still, some light "rogue" armor like the kind shown in DA:O would be very fitting. (no pun intended) That really is the bottom line here: have attire that is within the realms of both character and freaking common sense, not over the top ridiculous.

Well, since it's a game the amount and kind of coverage doesn't matter. I've fought Qunari while three spears sticking through my chest and watched them magically fade away. I should note that my rogue was wearing a metal breastplate. What your PC is wearing only determines how much damage you take, not whether you'll live after being impaled multiple times.

I'm not sure why it matters that Isabela doesn't wear pants. Her boots come to mid-thigh and the skirt almost reaches her boot tops. The only thing you can see is the side of her thigh. It's not like she's constantly pulling a Basic Instinct on helplessly naive players. I don't think a pair of skin-tight leather pants would offer any additional protection, but they would look a bit silly.

And I'll chime in and agree that Isabela is really almost perfectly characterized. A player has to give her time, just like Morrigan, but both are similar in that they could be stereotypes but are, in fact, very different from their initial presentation.