388 réponses à ce sujet

[don-mika]

what about female character, i have only one request: NO MORE MONSTER BOOBS
that's aesthetic looks ugly <_< 

[Monica21]

I really don't understand the "realism" argument. This happens:

http://social.biowar...0940/147152.jpg

Pierced twice through the chest and once through the leg. Not only does she keep running, but she doesn't die. Whether Isabela wears cotton or a full metal doesn't make any difference because this isn't real. This is an RPG, not LARPing session.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Pseudocognition wrote...

oui_je_danse wrote...
 I think we're probably safe from Anders doing a DA3 cameo magic mike style

No, we absolutely do not want to be safe from this.

I dare you, epler.

OMG BIoWare, make this happen 

[Elrena]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm personally rather pleased with how the DA Art team approaches our female character design. I couldn't really care less whether someone thinks Aveline is too mannish or Isabela too sexy-- their appearance suited their characters and their roles, and as long as there's a spectrum of representation in what we're showing I'm pretty happy with it.

Oh yes this. 

Every time I see someone complain about Isabela's or Aveline's appearance, I want to beat my fists against my screen. What Isabela wears is totally acceptable given her character, and leaves room for her to excecute all those ninja flips she does - and frankly, I see people walking around wearing less than her on a daily basis in my neighbourhood. Technically, the female Dalish leather armor in Origins was more revealing that what Bela wears, the problem seems to lie in that we can see her underwear. Her personality was so beautiful, and we really saw her grow as a person throughout DA2
As for Aveline being too mannish - argh. Argh, I say!
The woman was a blacksmith, to start. She was also a sword-and-shield warrior. Not every woman has a perfect ovular face, and I fell in love with Aveline from the beginning because of how unrepentantly strong she was, both physically and mentally. She wasn't created as fanservice, and neither was Isabela, despite what a lot of people (still) think.

I know I'm a bit late to the party with this, but I agreed with the earlier point that RoseAquafire made 100%, and I wanted to throw my hand up in support of both the writers and DA art team

[MiSS Provencale]

Elrena I agree with you. I was surprised by the personality of Isabela that evolves progressively history. I like it a lot. Aveline is a character I liked from the beginning. I recognized a lot in it. She does not hesitate to take up arms and fight whatever its the prejudice that sometimes men it beforehand.

[Zkyire]

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  They are not even historical fiction.  They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Agreed.

Power struggles exist between the:
- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).
- Humans and the Elves (racism).
- Humans of Ferelden proper and Humans of the Korcari Wilds, the Chasind (racism).
- Dwarven Castes (financial/social snobbery).
- Ferelden and Orlais (political/historical).
- Chantry and the Qun (theological rivals).

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

[Foolsfolly]

- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).

I don't think bigotry's the correct term. Mages can kill people with their minds and if they have a bad day they can turn into abominations and wreck some real terrible havoc. There's some closed minded thoughts within the Templar order but the end of the day they're dealing with people who have the explosive damage potential of a grenade or carpet bombing depending on how angry they are and if they're possessed or not.

Which apparently they can get possessed without even knowing they're possessed.

[Plaintiff]

Zkyire wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  They are not even historical fiction.  They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Agreed.

Power struggles exist between the:
- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).
- Humans and the Elves (racism).
- Humans of Ferelden proper and Humans of the Korcari Wilds, the Chasind (racism).
- Dwarven Castes (financial/social snobbery).
- Ferelden and Orlais (political/historical).
- Chantry and the Qun (theological rivals).

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

[Foolsfolly]

Wait, why are we talking about sexism in Thedas? Am I the only one who remembers having at least one comment made about the PC because they female? Perhaps by someone who may or may not be the new Arishok? And perhaps this character also made sexist remarks about other females in the PC's party?

There already is sexism in Thedas. Just like every other ism. The setting's rather rich with good and ill things.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  They are not even historical fiction.  They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Agreed.

Power struggles exist between the:
- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).
- Humans and the Elves (racism).
- Humans of Ferelden proper and Humans of the Korcari Wilds, the Chasind (racism).
- Dwarven Castes (financial/social snobbery).
- Ferelden and Orlais (political/historical).
- Chantry and the Qun (theological rivals).

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

^^This. I can't really see it fitting in the setting since women are already very 'accepted' and hold powerful roles in the society.  

Should the option to play a female hero be taken away to make the game more realistic? Or maybe just not allow them to be warriors?  

[upsettingshorts]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, why are we talking about sexism in Thedas? Am I the only one who remembers having at least one comment made about the PC because they female? Perhaps by someone who may or may not be the new Arishok? And perhaps this character also made sexist remarks about other females in the PC's party?

There already is sexism in Thedas. Just like every other ism. The setting's rather rich with good and ill things.

Qunari sexism is not real world human sexism.  The Qun is blue/orange morality.  It's alien.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .

[Foolsfolly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, why are we talking about sexism in Thedas? Am I the only one who remembers having at least one comment made about the PC because they female? Perhaps by someone who may or may not be the new Arishok? And perhaps this character also made sexist remarks about other females in the PC's party?

There already is sexism in Thedas. Just like every other ism. The setting's rather rich with good and ill things.

Qunari sexism is not real world human sexism.  The Qun is blue/orange morality.  It's alien.

Wait, they get a free pass because it's part of their culture? That doesn't seem fair. A lot of qunari culture is just... ugly.

[Kidd]

Zkyire wrote...

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

Sure, we have fictional noble titles discriminating against those who live in fictional stations. We also have fictional religions battling each other and fictional races giving fictionally racist remarks. When I see a fictional gender, I'm game for some fictional sexism. But if it's not a fictional gender, then it is not fictional sexism.

There's a lot of mentioning of the word "fictional" in this post for good reason, by the way =)

EDIT: Kinda 'd by Shorts, I see! ^^

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:28 .

[Elrena]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh, the "realism" argument. Good thing that one's got a ready-made counter argument:

These settings are not real.  They are not based in reality.  They are only vaguely inspired by them.  They are not even historical fiction.  They can depart from reality in whatever ways the narrative and themes ask them to be.

They can be whatever the writers want them to be, depending on what they want to say.

That writers, and audiences, demand they be sexist for the sake of "realism" says more about them than it does the setting.

Dear god, you can't be ****ing serious.

Agreed.

Power struggles exist between the:
- Templars (and by extension Chantry doctrine) and the Mages (bigotry).
- Humans and the Elves (racism).
- Humans of Ferelden proper and Humans of the Korcari Wilds, the Chasind (racism).
- Dwarven Castes (financial/social snobbery).
- Ferelden and Orlais (political/historical).
- Chantry and the Qun (theological rivals).

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

Why do we "need" sexism to make the game more realistic?

Thedas is not the Middle Ages, it's not our world. It's a world where the dominant religion is a matriarchy, and their most revered religious figure is a female. Women serve in the armed forces and have leadership roles. A lot of their folklore features female heroes. They're equal to men in every sense that's relevant.

Its history is different from ours, which means its society and culture is different from ours. Sexism doesn't make sense in this world. So to say that adding it would make things more "realistic" is nonsense, and it suggests that the people making this comment just want to see sexism for the sake of sexism.

^This. Shorts and Plaintiff are right. We don't 'need' sexism in our games, there's enough of it in the real world. 
But it is in Dragon Age. Where it is character-appropriate.
Like in the City Elf Origin, with Vaughan.
It is a characteristic, like any other, and can be used when it is characteristically appropriate. Sprinkling sexism throughout the game for the sake of it would make no sense. 
And as far as Sten is concerned, by Fereldan standards he was being sexist. He was voicing his confusion at finding a woman outside of traditional Qunari roles, and could not understand why a woman would choose too fight. After getting to know the female Warden however, it's apparent that he changes his mind, somewhat. He has to create a role for her that fits with the Qun, but he accepts that she fights and is in command. He never expresses disdain of her because she was a woman. 
Just because she was inexperienced and naive. 

[upsettingshorts]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, why are we talking about sexism in Thedas? Am I the only one who remembers having at least one comment made about the PC because they female? Perhaps by someone who may or may not be the new Arishok? And perhaps this character also made sexist remarks about other females in the PC's party?

There already is sexism in Thedas. Just like every other ism. The setting's rather rich with good and ill things.

Qunari sexism is not real world human sexism.  The Qun is blue/orange morality.  It's alien.

Wait, they get a free pass because it's part of their culture? That doesn't seem fair. A lot of qunari culture is just... ugly.

It's different, alien, and not based in or a reflection of the real world.  I said nothing of a free pass.

This is also why I'm not interested in discussing exclusively in-world morality, such as the Qun, out of character.  

If the discussion is about how one character or another of mine feels about the Qun, then I'm all for it.  If it's what I think about it personally, then I think the Qun is interesting blue/orange morality for a fantasy world that makes for good drama and conflict.

Needless to say, I had to make this distinction a lot during the mage/templar arguments following DA2. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 octobre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Zkyire wrote...

So why is sexism such a no-go?

You'd actually be incorrect. There is some Sexism in Thedas, just against Men, not women. They mixed it up a bit. Specfically in the Chantry, where the men are limited in how high they can serve. Women are not only accepted, but seem to be in charge of lots of things in Thedas. The Chantry, Orlais, possibly even Ferelden, depending on your playthrough. Even the Wardens had female commanders. And lets not forget Andraste who started it all.

Its a fantasy world, they weren't obligated to be sexist against the same gender.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 01 octobre 2012 - 11:40 .

[MrCousland99]

Lithuasil wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
I'm about to agree on a statement on feminism, derived from Witcher2, the single most sexist piece of media I've ever experienced, period.

I'm lead to believe you have never played the Witcher 2 or have little to no experience with any kind of media.

I've had the misfortune of playing through it actually (well, through both path'). There's just different levels of sexism -  I'm so desentized to the skimpy outfits that I hardly care at this point, as much as a change for the better would be nice. There's also the Christopher Nolan syndrome, where writers couldn't create a decent female character if their life depended on it. Then there's the kind that the witcher did - you know, utter hatred and contempt and all that, but I believe that's sort of leading the thread astray.

The Witcher 2 had sexism yeah but it made sense because there is sexism, racism and lying, killing etc in the real world and most of the people that were racist and sexist were the antagonists there is sexism so if you say The Witcher 2 is one of the most sexist peices of media you've ever experienced, that m'lady is ridiculous.

[Russalka]

I hoped these threads would appear when they actually showed female characters.

You know, the kind where they nitpick on every detail of their appearance.

Modifié par Russalka, 01 octobre 2012 - 01:49 .

[shedevil3001]

i had no problem with our companions armor, it was our protagonists armor i found ugly, the companions looked great, some sexy outfits as well as some more refined less revealing armor for a female protagonist would be great

[FINE HERE]

I don't mind a certain degree of sexism in DA. It makes it feel like the gender you chose matters and changed the story. Sure, you'd get the sleezy guy(or girl) hitting on you and calling you uncomfortable names. But, hey, at least they noticed. For instance, in DA2, when I was first going to meet the Arishok, I was expecting a line of dialog sayng, 'A female that fights? Bizarre.' Something along the lines of Sten's reaction in the first game. Instead, he doesn't care or mention it.
There was another game I played where it felt weird my gender was ignored. I picked a female with 'seductive hair,' 'seductive eyes,' and 'seductive voice'(that's what the game called them). Then I heard about a NPC in the village I was in who was a known playboy/flirt who didn't treat women all that well. Went to talk to said character, and... Nothing. I barely even got recognized as a woman. He didn't hit on my character, or scoff at her for trying to fight. It felt strange and bothered me. Like I was disconnected to the story. Or that the gender chose was simply thrown in to appease everyone.

[Adanu]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

I think Bioware does a pretty decent job with their female characters. I think Miranda is the only character that had me shaking my head every time she (or her butt did anyway) showed up on screen

Isabela was good but I think they kind of overdid it with her "adventurous" personality and attire. I mean no pants? Come on. I found Aveline far more sexy than her.

Ashley in ME1 is my all-time favourite female character in any medium. Damn shame they couldn't hold on to the same writer and look for ME3.

Aside from Miranda's copious camera angle, I actually don't have much issue with her as a character idea.  Although the idea that "life is so hard because I'm so perfect" is a tough perspective to empathize with, which I think makes her more difficult to identify with.  It was a challenging idea for a writer to tackle, IMO.


I also really like Ashley from ME1 as well

I think I'm one of the few who understood where Miranda was coming from. When you think differently and are have so much intellect compared to those around you, your perspective is completely different and you just get frustrated so easily.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's different, alien, and not based in or a reflection of the real world.

The concept of "men are good for X, women are good for Y" is by no means different, alien or not based/reflection of the real world.

[Cimeas]

The Witcher 2 is absolutely not sexist. It is set in a world where rape, sexism and misogyny are common. If anything, it is a much more interesting fantasy than Dragon Age because that's really what medieval Europe was like.

When your friend gets raped, or you find that pregnant elf girl in the town leader's house and you can't save her, it's sad and shocking, it's emotional. As for the brothels, I don't see a problem with that, they don't mean the developers are sexist, just that the Northern Kingdoms are. The sex scenes in TW2 could certainly be said to be a bit excessive, but the only ones that are shown in detail are ones of mutual consent, not rape.

The Witcher 2 exudes the universe of the books it is based on (which in turn are set in a fantasy version of medieval Europe). It would be absolutely wrong to call the developers sexist.

[Maria Caliban]

Zkyire wrote...

So we already have discrimination in game based on: finances, race, ability, nationality and religion.

So why is sexism such a no-go?

We have discrimination in game based on races that don't exist, abilities no human possess, imaginary nationalities, and religions that no one follows.

Sure, if BioWare wants to create brand new genders, I'll support having sexism between them.

[Sylvianus]

Yeah, no. If we can blame religion, religious people in a video game, if racism, discrimination against a demographic are used, I don't see why sexism couldn't be used too, whether it is against mens or womens. Everything takes inspiration from reality somehow. Especially games in modern times, like Mass effect. This isn't because we have aliens, that racism doesn't affect us. The proof is that many dislike Ashley because they think she is " racist. " And I do not forget either how people blame the chantry because of real life. Some folks for example can feel also insulted, with a game where religion and religious people are seen as pure evil even if it is named otherwise. That doesn't really change anything. If that is the only reason why sexism couldn't be used in a game, with a special treatment, that's a very weak reason.

Also, for the record we already see some racism ( black, chinese, white people with usual stereostypes ) in a few games like GTA. I didn't feel offended because that was a story with conflicts between gangs, it would suck if it wasn't close to what we see in real life. There was everything and it was amazing.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:45 .