104 réponses à ce sujet

[Lethys1]

I don't think that killing companions or important characters in the game is a required part of a narrative in order to make it good, though I think it adds some layers to a game that focuses on danger and combat.  That being said, if the writers do choose to kill off important characters, I hope that they do so in ways that are better than the last game, DA2.

DA2 thrusts you into a world with the death of your sibling, who you never know.  I never really cared about this person, nor did I have a moment with him/her prior to his or her death to set a tone.  In RockPaperShotgun's review of DA2, they pointed to this death as diminshing the value of all subsquent deaths right from the start, a viewpoint I absolutely agree with.  It has an emotional numbing effect, because it's the first emphasized death and yet I felt complete apathy towards it.  It removed immersion, which is an effect that can be examined more in depth in another post.

The death of the remaining sibling was, as much as I hate to say, not that impactful.  Not even in the slightest.  Not just because of the first sibling's death, but also because the siblings never really have any really memorable moments.  They don't have any bond that solidifies their importance as siblings.  I had felt withdrawn from Hawke alerady from the time jumps, and the siblings then felt even less connected.  I felt far more affinity for Varric than either sibling simply due to him being a far more powerful influence on the story.  Finally, the death of the mother, finishing off the murder of your entire family, feels cheap.  Such an unnecessary death in the larger narrative really made it seem like your whole family was put in place specifically for them to die, as opposed to them having an actual part of the story.

The best way to handle character deaths was displayed in Mass Effect 1 and 2.  We already experience an entire narrative with a character prior to their death.  In one scenario, we simply need someone to sacrifice themselves for the greater good (bomb sacrifice in ME1).  I despised Ashley as a character and still felt legitimately upset by leaving her to die. In Mass Effect 2, the death of any crew member had particular weight both because you had a narrative with them and because your choices were what decided who lived and who died.

[upsettingshorts]

As much as I like RPS as a site, I feel like they fairly regularly miss the point in unexpected ways when it comes to certain games. For example, you'd think they'd be dedicated roleplayers in the school of old, but that's kind of a typical case of not doing that.

The sibling's death, if you're roleplaying, shouldn't be about whether or not you the player care, it's about presenting you with an opportunity to determine how Hawke responds. You are given three very different choices to that end, and as such are given a very early look into your Hawke's character:

They can be moved to tears, they can be determined to press on, or they can look at the bright side. The meaning of your sibling's death for Hawke is up to you.

The other deaths are the same way, and while as a player your mileage may vary - and my mileage varies from yours a lot - the opportunities exist to offer you a chance to roleplay.  If the meaning is fixed it can become oppressive, and then that opportunity is lost.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:59 .

[sylvanaerie]

I get what you're saying about the first sibling's death, but I have to disagree about the others. I had gotten the demo before the release of the game, and knew about the first sibling death. It is rather unimpactful, you have only played with them about 10 minutes before they are gone, in a manner that's completely removed from the player's hands. By contrast, Wesley's death moved me, as a player, in a way my sibling's didn't, since it is such a hopeless and deliberate moment.

I've never been able to kill my sibling in the deep roads. My first, unspoiled game I left Carver at home, not knowing his eventual fate, and well, we all know what I found when my mage returned from the deep roads. After that playthrough I started coming back on the boards and got all kinds of information on the game and learned how to keep them alive. So, I've never experienced that.

Leandra's death is a lesson in the futility of casting blame, and revenge. Yes, you killed Quentin, but he was done with his 'life's work'. Your mother was gone, and killing him didn't bring her back. You can blame Aveline and the guard, you can blame yourself for not following up Emeric's leads. You can't blame Emeric himself who did everything he could, even if he was in error about the culprit, he gave his life to try to stop Quentin. In the end, it was senseless, and the 'out of control' feeling I felt then was pretty infuriating, but it was part of the frustration I think I was supposed to feel for Hawke. You can't fight off death with a sword or spells, it's going to come for you and it will always seem senseless.

With Anders, you choose to kill him (if that's your choice), but it felt as 'out of control' as Leandra's death. Hawke isn't given the time it would take for a trip into the fade to kill Justice, and even if it were possible, there is the question, did Anders do this completely at Justice/Vengeance's behest, or did he do it fully cognizant and in agreement with his spirit?

While I was frustrated with it, I recognized it as an interesting part of the story. I don't want a protagonist who can save everyone in DA3, or any game. Bioware makes their games with hard choices, no wrong or right answers. All you can do is make the best choice you can, when you can, and try to enjoy the ride. Some things you can't control, but you can control how your Hawke perceives them and where they go from that point.

[xsamplexample]

I like this idea

[Plaintiff]

I agree with Upsettingshorts. The deathes of Hawke's family don't have to have meaning for you. They have meaning for Hawke, which is not the same thing.

[Nashimura]

DA really needed a quiet little moment where you run around lothering getting to know people, it would of added that little bit to the characterization of the sibling who dies at the start it would also flesh out hawkes life and let you establish his personality before leaving for kirkwall. Maybe even throw in a few cameo's of the people who were in the first game. 

Maybe make the starting bit you and carver's last day before joining up with the army (just Carver if mage of course) have Varic narrate what goes on at ostagar then skip forward to you, back in lothering running from the darkspawn like what we got from the game.

I think this would of been a big improvment over the weird Varric's exaggeration part.

Modifié par Nashimura, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The sibling's death, if you're roleplaying, shouldn't be about whether or not you the player care, it's about presenting you with an opportunity to determine how Hawke responds.

I disagree. If a moment is supposed to have emotional impact for my character but I feel indifferent and unmoved, it's likely a fault of the storytelling.

Moreover, at the beginning of the game, Hawke is no one to me. I have no idea what her relationship with her sibling was or the pattern of personality available to her. It's not a PnP game where I can construct a detailed backstory and hand it to my ST or where I'm completely in control of my PC's behavior such that I just pick whatever and RP it however I desire.

And no, I am not roleplaying 'wrong,' I'm just roleplaying a different way.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The sibling's death, if you're roleplaying, shouldn't be about whether or not you the player care, it's about presenting you with an opportunity to determine how Hawke responds.

I disagree. If a moment is supposed to have emotional impact for my character but I feel indifferent and unmoved, it's likely a fault of the storytelling.

Yes and no.  It's still an opportunity whether you feel anything or not.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Moreover, at the beginning of the game, Hawke is no one to me.

Wouldn't some argue that this is roleplaying wrong? I build my protagonists through cooperation with ingame options too, but who is to say you can't have an idea going in of who he/she is and as such, have an idea as to how they ought to respond?

Do you feel the same about the second (possible) sibling death? Leandra?  

Maria Caliban wrote...

And no, I am not roleplaying 'wrong,' I'm just roleplaying a different way.

That's fair.  But that's different from not roleplaying at all, is it not?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The sibling's death, if you're roleplaying, shouldn't be about whether or not you the player care, it's about presenting you with an opportunity to determine how Hawke responds.

I disagree. If a moment is supposed to have emotional impact for my character but I feel indifferent and unmoved, it's likely a fault of the storytelling.

Yes and no.  It's still an opportunity whether you feel anything or not.

Maria Caliban wrote...
Moreover, at the beginning of the game, Hawke is no one to me.

Wouldn't some argue that this is roleplaying wrong? I build my protagonists through cooperation with ingame options too, but who is to say you can't have an idea going in of who he/she is and as such, have an idea as to how they ought to respond?
Do you feel the same about the second (possible) sibling death? Leandra?  

Maria Caliban wrote...
And no, I am not roleplaying 'wrong,' I'm just roleplaying a different way.

That's fair.  But that's different from not roleplaying at all, is it not?

The issue with Hawke and the first sibling death, from my perspective, is the following: If you try to craft Hawke as your character, the game will continuously slap your hand and say "NO!". If you want to discover the character Hawke will be through gameplay, this event happens too soon to already have a rough idea of who Hawke can be. One way or another, there's not enough knowledge at that point of how Hawke can to properly represent the impact, and there's not enough player familiarity to make him care.

[upsettingshorts]

nevermind

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Wulfram]

You don't get a huge amount more characterisation for the Cousland family, but killing them off works for me. And I felt for Shianni too

[Nashimura]

Wulfram wrote...

You don't get a huge amount more characterisation for the Cousland family, but killing them off works for me. And I felt for Shianni too

You get to have a good few talks with them first, they feel like a family to you - i never got that from the hawkes.

[Knight of Dane]

Nashimura wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You don't get a huge amount more characterisation for the Cousland family, but killing them off works for me. And I felt for Shianni too

You get to have a good few talks with them first, they feel like a family to you - i never got that from the hawkes.

Nobody did, at least not in the first sibling death scene. The first playthrough I had where Carver died I didn't care for him. 

[Icinix]

Nashimura wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

You don't get a huge amount more characterisation for the Cousland family, but killing them off works for me. And I felt for Shianni too

You get to have a good few talks with them first, they feel like a family to you - i never got that from the hawkes.

Indeed. Shianni and the whole city elf community is one of the reasons why City Elf origin is my favourite, and why human noble is close second.

I developed a closer attachment to those characters in DAO, than I did with any family members through the whole of DA2.

I've said it a few times, but I think the fact is, you can't force a gamer to feel an emotion you want. You have to let them choose it themselves.

Earth and the kid from ME3 - didn't work, too forced.

Hawkes sibling and mother, also too forced.

[Allan Schumacher]

I often see people use the word "immersion." I'm no longer even really sure what it means.

I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

Maybe I'm a poor judge for such things, because I actually have lost a sibling. Seeing the whole interaction just seemed so utter believable and appropriate for how the scene played out that I really liked it.

I don't have to have needed to meet any one of you. If any random person posted on this board that they just lost their brother, I guarantee you I'd feel some empathy towards that person, even if I know nothing about them.

[upsettingshorts]

Icinix wrote...

Earth and the kid from ME3 - didn't work, too forced.

I would argue that was exactly an example of BioWare trying to add meaning to a character death.

...and it was oppressive, didn't work, and stripped roleplaying opportunities from Shepard.

If we narrow the discussion to the benefits of providing more content for any character before offing them... sure, I can get onboard with that.  But an argument for more content is an argument for more content.  Of course people want that.

[upsettingshorts]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I often see people use the word "immersion." I'm no longer even really sure what it means.

It is absolutely 100% subjective.  This can be demonstrated frequently on these forums by the fact that what maintains or increases immersion for someone can break it completely for someone else.  There is almost no consistency on a feature-to-feature basis as to what constitutes an immersion breaking feature, aside from bugs and crashes - and even those things bother some people more than others.

In essence if it has an objective definition it's probably "a narrative development or gameplay feature that fit into my expectations."  Things not working as you expect break immersion because you realize you're constrained by the game.  Things working exactly as you expect them to do not.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Icinix]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I often see people use the word "immersion." I'm no longer even really sure what it means.

I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

Maybe I'm a poor judge for such things, because I actually have lost a sibling. Seeing the whole interaction just seemed so utter believable and appropriate for how the scene played out that I really liked it.

I don't have to have needed to meet any one of you. If any random person posted on this board that they just lost their brother, I guarantee you I'd feel some empathy towards that person, even if I know nothing about them.

I've lost a brother so I know what its like and definitely feel empathy for others...

..but in a game sense - I think the emotional reactions are chosen to much for the player. BioWare is probably a bit of a victim of their own success here because they've handled it so well in the past - but the last few releases I've felt less like I'm the player and I'm reacting with my emotions - and more watching a character in a story that I'm being told.

Yes, I get heavily invested in my gaming.

Edit: I also think this is a new problem arising with a fully voiced player character and shortened chosen dialogue so how we think we should react doesn't match up with the characters presentation.

Modifié par Icinix, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[Dominus]

It depends how it's done. As stated above, the Earth Kid/Hawke's Mother scenarios are good example of contrived death in an attempt to instill emotion. If you're not emotionally invested in said character(Earth Kid), or it simply feels like it's there purely for adding drama(Hawke's Mother), it isn't enough. And on the other side of that coin, I thought the handling of Mordin and Wrex(if genophage was sabotaged) were more enthralling to the story.

I lost my mother to a brain tumor many years ago, so I can empathize with the death of loved ones.

[upsettingshorts]

Case in point:

Icinix wrote...

Edit: I also think this is a new problem arising with a fully voiced player character and shortened chosen dialogue so how we think we should react doesn't match up with the characters presentation.

Icinix argues here that the player voice has decreased his sense of immersion.  I have no reason whatsoever to presume he is lying, so we must assume that it is true for him.

I argue that the player voice has increased my immersion, and while it would be off-topic to go into too much detail suffice to say I prefer that everyone have a voice or no-one speak out loud at all.  I am not lying, so assume it is also true for me.

If neither of us are lying, and we are both experiencing the same features, then it must be the case that what we have here is a subjective difference of opinion.

This happens with a lot of issues, especially any that are linked to the concept of immersion.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Icinix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Case in point:

Icinix wrote...

Edit: I also think this is a new problem arising with a fully voiced player character and shortened chosen dialogue so how we think we should react doesn't match up with the characters presentation.

Icinix argues that the player voice has decreased his sense of immersion.  I have no reason whatsoever to presume he is lying, so we must assume that it is true for him.

I argue that the player voice has increased my immersion, and while it would be off-topic to go into too much detail suffice to say I prefer that everyone talk or no-one speak at all.  I am not lying, so assume it is also true for me.

If neither of us are lying, and we are both experiencing the same features, then it must be the case that what we have here is a subjective difference of opinion.

This happens with a lot of issues, especially any that are linked to the concept of immersion.

Ha! Indeed.

Immersion is impossible to nail down to one thing or combination of things for an indivdual too - I've been playing ToR all weekend - and despite my constant frustration with the dialogue wheel - I've been totally immersed in the game. How can I be immersed in spite of what should be smashing that immersion? Mass Effect 1 dialogue wheel for me - totally immersive. Its such a case by case basis and doesn't even make sense in my own head.

[Wulfram]

I think the thing is that, because it's a family member, people feel like there should be a lot of emotion - more than just the natural empathy that you might have for any stranger in that sort of situation. So there's a disconnect

Which is perhaps one reason why Wesley's death works better - he's supposed to be a just met stranger, so the players feelings are more in sync with what Hawke's should be.

Though also the game, by giving the choice about who kills him, brings the player into it more.

[Allan Schumacher]

Which is perhaps one reason why Wesley's death works better - he's supposed to be a just met stranger, so the players feelings are more in sync with what Hawke's should be.

It's an interesting point, and I do agree Wesley's situation is more powerful. Probably compounded by the fact that he's still alive and effectively need to be mercy killed.

[CaisLaochach]

I'd have preferred if the siblings hadn't been the ones to die, tbh. Their growth as characters and people would probably have been cooler.

Still, it was an interesting idea.

[Dave of Canada]

Personally, I feel the sibling death would've benefited with a scene which detailed the events before the flight from Lothering. I mean, we're on the run from the Darkspawn and we've lost everything but we're dropped in and it's "oh hey, btw we just lost everything".

Which is fine, though the whole start of the game basically being one long combat corridor until your sibling bites the dust doesn't really help. Compare this to say... the Couslands, they don't get much air time but their deaths impacts the player far more because you've been with them a little while.

Had the Cousland origin started with Howe's invasion, I assume the scene wouldn't have been as strong. The scene where you abandon your parents, discover your nephew's body and such was stronger due to the ten minutes prior where everything was normal.

Wesley was different as Hawke's reaction to it was the same as the player, you could show indifference / be an ass or whatever else you feel is appropriate. Sibling death is always moving, just... not to some players.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:06 .