104 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

If a death in a game is supposed to have emotional impact then it requires some emotional bonding with either the one who died or with one who was left behind. Hawke's brother and sister did not achieve that for me.

[CommanderVyse]

Death works better when it is somehow the player's fault. If you have to make a choice like ME1 or if you were not prepared enough like ME2. Even in DAO, Leliana's possible death is because of your choices. With Mrs. Hawke in DA2, no matter what the player does, the death is inevitable.

[Aleya]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I often see people use the word "immersion." I'm no longer even really sure what it means.

I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

Maybe I'm a poor judge for such things, because I actually have lost a sibling. Seeing the whole interaction just seemed so utter believable and appropriate for how the scene played out that I really liked it.

I don't have to have needed to meet any one of you. If any random person posted on this board that they just lost their brother, I guarantee you I'd feel some empathy towards that person, even if I know nothing about them.

While of course I could empathize with Hawke as a human being, I wasn't supposed to feel empathy for Hawke, I was supposed to be Hawke, to feel Hawke's pain as my own. It's an RPG. I am the PC. I want to feel whatever the PC is feeling. That was completely impossible with the sibling's death in DA2, because we'd only just met them. So Bethany's (in my case) death served to create a sense of disconnection with Hawke, we weren't on the same page  emotionally.

In all other Bioware games up to that point, I'd experienced pain when a companion died. I felt responsible for them, I cared about them, I felt the horror of knowing I'd made a mistake somewhere, or this was inevitable, and the fury at being powerless to stop it. With the sibling's death, I knew Hawke felt these things, and I felt sorry for her, but I didn't feel them because Hawke had a depth of feeling for her sibling that I couldn't begin to feel. Bethany was a complete stranger to me at that point. Compare this to my first Cousland playthrough where I felt the desperate need to protect my family, the numb horror at finding Oriana and Oren's bodies, the all-encompassing fury at Howe, and later Loghain, on realizing I'd have to leave my parents behind. All it took was half an hour of wandering around the castle and collecting a dog, and they were my family as surely as Alexa's. All it would've taken was half an hour of wandering around Lothering and I would've felt the same way about Bethany, and it's a shame I didn't get that opportunity.

To describe my first playthrough; Bethany's death left me wondering if I'd missed some introductory act in which I would've gotten a chance to bond with her. And then I felt disappointment and frustration, because it's not supposed to take an extra playthrough for a sibling's death to really hit you, but apparently in DA2 that was going to be the case. When Carver died in the Deep Roads on the other hand I was furious with myself. For taking him along, for not bringing Anders, for disliking him, for not realizing what was going to happen... The difference in emotional impact was staggering. When Leandra died I just felt pissed because it was an obvious plot device to bring home the danger of blood mages, and I'd wanted to continue the investigation in the previous act and I wanted  to ask Leandra about her mysterious suitor, but the game wouldn't let me. It felt engineered, manipulative, and fake. Just like the few other occasions where Hawke displayed a level of stupidity that I never would've agreed to if I'd truly had control over the character.

Basically, for immersion to be possible where character deaths are concerned, I need two things:
1. Whatever I feel for the character has to be in line with what the PC feels. Whether that's a sense of responsibility, friendship, hatred, respect, familial love, whatever. I have to have a clear enough sense of it to feel with the PC, not for him/her. This is what was missing with Bethany.
2. My feelings on the circumstances surrounding the character's death have to be in line with what the PC feels. If the PC feels responsible, I need to feel that the character died because of something I either did or failed to do. This is what was missing with Leandra.

Modifié par Aleya, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[Direwolf0294]

I thought the second sibling's death was handled okay, though personally I would have liked to have my sibling stick around the entire game, it would have added an interesting dynamic to the story, but the first sibling death was handled very poorly. You knew the character for about 5 minutes, had a couple lines of conversation with them and then they died increadibly fast.

If they're going to kill characters off in DA3 they really need to give us a reason to care about those characters first. Have us get to know them and interact with them more. Even your mother's death in DA2 felt a bit hollow because of how little meaningful interaction you had with her in Act 2.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad, please pick up the white courtesy phone:

Aleya wrote...

It's an RPG. I am the PC.

But seriously, half-joking Sylvius summonings aside, I don't want to cut your entire statement down into two short sentences but I'm doing it just to make the point that this is another case of people playing differently.  That doesn't invalidate anything you say in your post, but it might put it in a different context.

Adding meaning in the sense you - and this thread - request can be oppressive to those who play RPGs to be someone else, a variety of people in fact.  It's occasionally a zero sum game.

That said, there are things that could be done to improve the experience of both camps, but it seems to amount to... more content.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[Aleya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
But seriously, half-joking Sylvius summonings aside, I don't want to cut your entire statement down into two short sentences but I'm doing so just to make the point that this is another case of people playing differently.  That doesn't invalidate anything you say in your post, but it might put it in a different context.

Adding meaning in the sense you - and this thread - request can be oppressive to those who play RPGs to be someone else, a variety of people in fact.  It's occasionally a zero sum game.

That said, there are things that could be done to improve the experience of both camps, but it seems to amount to... more content.

Of course a lot of people want to be someone else, myself included. I didn't mean that all my Wardens and Hawkes are carbon copies of my own personality, there's a huge variety of people there, and some have nothing in common with me at all.

I don't think I completely understand what you're saying. Do you mean seeing the PC as an NPC whose strings you can occasionally pull but whom you're not emotionally invested in? 

[upsettingshorts]

Not as such.

Put simply, it's more that my inclination towards how my character should respond to a given development and my own visceral reaction to it (should I even have one) are distinctly separate things.

[Allan Schumacher]

While of course I could empathize with Hawke as a human being, I wasn't supposed to feel empathy for Hawke, I was supposed to be Hawke, to feel Hawke's pain as my own. It's an RPG. I am the PC. I want to feel whatever the PC is feeling. That was completely impossible with the sibling's death in DA2, because we'd only just met them. So Bethany's (in my case) death served to create a sense of disconnection with Hawke, we weren't on the same page emotionally.

This probably comes down to differences for how we approached DA2 then. I still considered myself to be Hawke, so the loss of a family member was still something I could roleplay.

But then, I seem to have little problem doing this in a large chunk of my games (RPG or otherwise).

If a player hadn't yet (or was just never able to) make that association I can see how it'd be an issue (though I already concede that the scene was obviously not as effective for others as it was for me. The topic has come up a fair bit and those that don't care for it have been well reasoned in their arguments as to why).

[Get Magna Carter]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I often see people use the word "immersion." I'm no longer even really sure what it means.

I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

Maybe I'm a poor judge for such things, because I actually have lost a sibling. Seeing the whole interaction just seemed so utter believable and appropriate for how the scene played out that I really liked it.

I don't have to have needed to meet any one of you. If any random person posted on this board that they just lost their brother, I guarantee you I'd feel some empathy towards that person, even if I know nothing about them.

Immersion is about placing solid objects in liquids - any usage when talking about playing a game is a metaphor and not everyone uses the same metaphor.

I personally use it in the same sense that I can be "immersed" in a book becoming engaged with the world and it's people and  it's storylines.
Other people use it for the player imagining they are the character and associate it with first-person viewpoints and vibrating controllers.

On the subject of deaths - the impact of the death depends on how long and how well you have known the person before their death.  So in Mass Effect 3 the deah of the child has no more impact than the death of Jenkins in 1.
The death of Kaiden or Ashley on Virmire is more significant as you know them better and their death is more linked to the player's decisions.
In the Final Fantasy series they had some characters (typically old men) die heroic deaths, but decided that was not properly representing death so they set up a major character as the hero's obvious romantic interest and then abruptly killed her in a manner that shocked many players.
In Suikoden you start off in a sort of family group with a friend and 3-family servants and then the story kills them one-at-a-time (leaving one definite survivor)...this gradual loss tied in with their constant presence before their deaths really hit me.

[Dean_the_Young]

wwinters99 wrote...

Death works better when it is somehow the player's fault. If you have to make a choice like ME1 or if you were not prepared enough like ME2. Even in DAO, Leliana's possible death is because of your choices. With Mrs. Hawke in DA2, no matter what the player does, the death is inevitable.

I'll disagree in ME2, because ME2's Suicide Mission was basically a focus on completionism rather than role-playing choices.

As the decisions themselves in the Suicide Mission were pretty much incredibly simple with obvious answers (a tech specialist? Well, the only people with tech abilities are...), it was actually harder to wipe your team from decisions than it was to keep them. Over half of the deaths had no real role-playing aspect beyond 'do I want to take the time for this loyalty mission/mineral scanning for the upgrades or not', as Loyalty alone was the 'condition' for success for most people.

ME2 had deaths that were definitely under your control, but it was largely a case of having to play 'badly' to kill them rather than role-playing, as you basically had to invent justifications to NOT partake in a major piece of the game's content to skip the missions and upgrades.

[Pedrak]

I agree with the OP about the death of the sibling at the beginning of DA2. It came too suddenly, while we had no attachment to that character, and therefore felt bland and toothless. Still an opportunity to roleplay? Maybe, but, emotionally, it felt numb. You can't expect me to feel sorry for a NPC just because he is close to the protagonist- you have to characterize him first.

I'd argue that Bio usually does this very well, though - it is one of the greatest achievements of the Mass Effect series.
(With the possible exception of the kid at the beginning of ME3 - I can buy a Paragon Shepard being moved and even shocked, but if one is roleplaying a full Renegade Shep, I have a hard time believing that he would be so traumatized - it is actually jarring to the player).

DA2 handled this ok with Anders - it took me quite a while to figure out what to do with him at the end, because on one hand I was furious with him and thought he deserved to die, on the other hand killing him felt, emotionally, a real burden.

Modifié par Pedrak, 30 septembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[Sejborg]

When Carver died I didn't care.

When Bethany later died I did care. Mostly because she was an important asset to my group, and I had leveled her up, to fill a role none of the other mages could fill at that moment.

The death of the first sibling, was just the first of many instances where the game established a disconnect between me, and the character I was supposed to be.

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

Maybe I'm a poor judge for such things, because I actually have lost a sibling. Seeing the whole interaction just seemed so utter believable and appropriate for how the scene played out that I really liked it.

I don't have to have needed to meet any one of you. If any random person posted on this board that they just lost their brother, I guarantee you I'd feel some empathy towards that person, even if I know nothing about them.

Well, as far as empathy goes with the sibling dying in DA2, its a video game. Its not real life. And the way it was presented was very video game-y. I too have lost a sibling in real life but she didn't stupidly charge into a giant ogre and get smashed into the ground. And I knew my sister for years and years before she died, not like DA2 where I don't even know who I'm supposed to be playing as in Hawke, let alone who these people are around me, who apparently Hawke knows but I don't.

So when the Hawke sibling died it was just sort of an "Oh, ok. That person is dead and it looked kind of silly when the sibling that was smashed in the cutscene magically stood back up to go through the death animation once you had to go back to gameplay to fight another wave." And since I barely knew who Hawke was or who the people around him were, plus with the ambiguity of the paraphrases, the whole attempt at high drama with the mother just felt kind of cheesy more than anything. To me as a player.

[TheRealJayDee]

edit: double post

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 30 septembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[TheRealJayDee]

I roleplayed my Hawke like I usually do with my characters, as much as the game allowed me. And let me tell you, I have probably never played a character in a video game who was more devastated by the events he was confronted with.

But, and here's the problem, I as the player was pretty much completely disconnected from my character's feelings. I'm a very emotional person, but I never felt more than a little bit of what my character was feeling in terms of sadness etc. I mostly got frustrated and annoyed.

Can't write much more right now. I might go into further detail later on, although I've said pretty much everything already in various DA2 threads.

[ElitePinecone]

I've mentioned this before when the topic has come up, but I felt more empathy for, say, Jenkins in ME or the Human Noble's family in DAO, if only because we'd had even a limited chance to get to know them as characters. Even a tiny amount of characterisation can do wonders.

By contrast, with DA2, I felt like we were thrust into this chaotic situation with random people (who are the Hawkes?): we never really got a chance to know the characters amid combat and exposition about the story, yet the game - complete with sad music - expected us to feel emotional when a sibling we barely knew died.

I mean, conceptually I can see the sadness, and intellectually I know losing a sibling/child would devastate Leandra, Hawke and the remaining sibling, but... it left me cold. Aveline and Wesley worked better.

Immersion is a horrible concept to try to pin down, but for me it's the difference between being swept along in whatever emotion the game is pushing for, and resisting because suddenly I realise that this is a video game character (albeit a finely-choreographed one) that I've known for all of two minutes. I felt something for Mordin, Legion, Ashley, the Human Noble's family, Elthina and even Loghain - not so much Carver or Bethany.

[legbamel]

For me, the insta-death of a sibling at the beginning of DA2 was an opportunity for me to frame Hawke's personality and her relationship with her family more than it was a big emotional hit. Of course the moment Leandra blames me for it I have a tough time being supportive or role-playing the dutiful daughter. I wanted the options to really tell her where to stick it or at least to say, "What am I, his/her mother?!" followed by a meaningful narrowing of the eyes and stalking off a ways until she came to her senses.

[Nomen Mendax]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
This probably comes down to differences for how we approached DA2 then. I still considered myself to be Hawke, so the loss of a family member was still something I could roleplay.

But then, I seem to have little problem doing this in a large chunk of my games (RPG or otherwise).

If a player hadn't yet (or was just never able to) make that association I can see how it'd be an issue (though I already concede that the scene was obviously not as effective for others as it was for me. The topic has come up a fair bit and those that don't care for it have been well reasoned in their arguments as to why).

I found Carver's death a lot less possible to care about than Wesley's because it made no sense to me in the game. Wesley's fatal wound happened off-camera (yes, I know that it was literally on-camera) in that it occured just before I joined up with Aveline and Wesley.

Carver was part of my party and the death was forced and completely ignored all of the game mechanics, I didn't care about his death because my feeling of being cheated over-shadowed any feelings my character might have had.

[edit] Carver's death lessened my immersion because the game was telling me that it didn't matter what my character did because the game would only follow its own rules when it felt they were convenient.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 30 septembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[Eilaras]

I totally agree. This is also one of the very few flaws in origins, I think. Despite all the danger, all of yout companions survive, unless YOU kill them! It would be even more epic if one of your companions died heroically in the battle of Denerim.  

[tmp7704]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

When your party casually murders the latest couple dozens of "another wave!" ruffians in whatever part of Kirkwall you happen to be in, do you ever feel some kind of empathy with the parents of those people, who after all have just lost their sons/daughters? Or not really, because they're just NPCs in a computer game?

It's the same principle -- it takes some amount of the mere-exposure effect to develop attachment to characters, or even to start viewing them as characters in the first place. I'd say the amount of exposure offered by DA2 opening was simply not enough for many.

edit: another thought; if you were part of DA2 development team then perhaps you've found it easier to feel something about the character at that point because you've already "known" them for long months of the game-building process, and witnessed them in all kinds of situations during that time? Contrasted to a regular player whose first contact with Carver and the rest of the family can be pretty much couple lines of bickering and the  "Brother why didn't you.. roll a mage..."

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Wynne]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I often see people use the word "immersion." I'm no longer even really sure what it means.

I know people run into the issue of "why should I care about this person" but I guess my perspective is "how could you not feel some sort of empathy?"

Maybe I'm a poor judge for such things, because I actually have lost a sibling. Seeing the whole interaction just seemed so utter believable and appropriate for how the scene played out that I really liked it.

I don't have to have needed to meet any one of you. If any random person posted on this board that they just lost their brother, I guarantee you I'd feel some empathy towards that person, even if I know nothing about them.

It has to do with whether or not the character in question seems to be wearing a red shirt and holding a sign that says "I AM GOING TO DIE TO ADD DRAMA." 

Death is only meaningful if the character reminds the audience of a real person. I'm very sorry for your loss... I have been through a similar experience when my mother had several miscarriages and I watched her stomach size change, realizing that I'd never be anyone's big sister. That was extremely painful and life-changing by itself; I can't imagine how it would've been if I'd gotten to know them before they were taken away from me.

But in a story, a narrative, you have to successfully create a semblance of life for the audience to forget for that crucial moment that they are experiencing fiction and instead think about their real life experiences. It can be hard for a writer to see that difference, which is why feedback is so crucial--to be good at pulling heartstrings, a writer has to understand that critical suspension of disbelief and be aware of overused tropes so that they don't pull all the expecteed moves that make people think, "Oh yeah, I've seen this story before." That takes them out of the moment and kills that sense of empathy. 

I mean, watching Star Trek, would you shed a tear for Redshirt #42? Really? Or did you roll your eyes and go, "Wow, the major characters are unharmed while a nameless crewman with no distinguishing characteristics died!" That's the difference.

This is why it sucked when a certain female warrior died in Awakening--because she seemed like a real character who would be an awesome companion. If she had been generic fighter #42 and not very well acted, it wouldn't have worked. She was treated like she could have developed into a real character, well enough to make us believe... and grieve. 

But it made the point. Every person who dreams of being a Grey Warden and dies is a tragedy. 

Losing Carver or Bethany is more tragic in retrospect than on the first playthrough. But if you'd been able to play through the destruction of their homes and escape with them, see who they were and who Hawke was with them to the point where you're envisioning how life will be with them... that adds to realism; it puts the player's feelings in line with what Hawke's would be, imagining your future with them, taking it for granted and then having it torn away. That, too, would make the point. That is crux of the divide between what is immersive and what is not--whether you made the point.

Modifié par Wynne, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:31 .

[LPPrince]

Compare-

DAO's Cousland family
DA2's Hawke family

To me, the Cousland family's deaths were more impactful.

One- They were offscreen. Meaning the player got to place whatever type of death they experienced in their minds. They got to "decide" how they died, rather than seeing it firsthand or knowing exactly how it went down to the last minute detail. In contrast, you see your siblings and mother die in DA2.

Two- You got to know them better prior to their deaths. In the Human Noble Origin Story, the player has multiple conversations with their mother, father, and brother. Everything from seemingly unimportant conversations to heavy hitting "this is the last we'll ever speak to each other" conversations, it made you feel like they really WERE your family, and you lost them. In DA2, you get no such build up. Just death of the first family member, which sours the next two deaths that have some build up.

Three- Redemption. In DAO, you find out Arl Howe was behind your family's deaths. It takes quite some time from the death of your family till the reuniting with Howe before you can kill him and get revenge. This means there's been some time to develop a desire to get redemption. In DA2, the first family member is killed by an Ogre that gets swiftly killed, the second dies from an unseen darkspawn earlier that was fought, and your mother dies from a blood mage that again gets swiftly killed. No time to develop feelings.

Four- Hope. In DAO, your brother survives. He's gone missing, and you initially desire to find him before more important matters get in the way. It would've been nice to hear about him a few more times throughout the story, alas that didn't happen. Still, your entire family was NOT wiped out. Just your mother and father, leaving you and your brother to carry on the Cousland name. In DA2, unless making the correct decisions, your entire family gets wiped out save for you, leaving no hope outside of roleplaying the only remaining member of the family.



I think those points show quite the difference in how to handle a family's death. Cousland deaths were done right- Hawke deaths were done very wrong.