104 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

I think I must roleplay very differently from a lot of people here.

People keep talking about Couslands vs Hawke's siblings and how one was more impactful than the other, but they were both equally impactful for me, which is to say, neither was impactful at all. I truly, deeply, don't give a crap.

I've never engaged emotionally with the death of a character in such a way, except for some TV shows, when I got angry because I felt like an interesting character's potential had been squandered, while the boring ones got to live.

The way I see it, I am not supposed to feel anything, and I don't feel anything. Bethany and Carver are Hawke's siblings, not mine. He feels sorrow, I do not. I am not Hawke, I am merely choosing the manner in which he  responds to the stimulus of his sibling's death, and I don't need to be weeping for Bethany or Carver to understand perfectly well that Hawke is upset. I can relate to his situation, I can empathise, Hawke's responses may even be in line with what my own would be, if I were to lose a sibling, but it's still not me in that situation. The line between Hawke and myself is very clearly defined, just as it is between every other character I play, including the Warden.

When a friend or acquaintance loses someone they were close to, we as human beings are fully capable of understanding that the situation is awful for them, without experiencing the full brunt of their sorrow. We don't say "well I don't feel sad about it, so you shouldn't either". That would be silly, and also rude.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:00 .

[LPPrince]

Plaintiff wrote...

I've never engaged emotionally with the death of a character in such a way, except for some TV shows, when I got angry because I felt like a character's potential had been squandered, while the boring ones got to live.

Well, the developers can't really help that.

It says more about you than the games they make, which isn't a bad thing. It just can't be helped.

[jillabender]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The sibling's death, if you're roleplaying, shouldn't be about whether or not you the player care, it's about presenting you with an opportunity to determine how Hawke responds.

I disagree. If a moment is supposed to have emotional impact for my character but I feel indifferent and unmoved, it's likely a fault of the storytelling.

Yes and no.  It's still an opportunity whether you feel anything or not.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Moreover, at the beginning of the game, Hawke is no one to me.

Wouldn't some argue that this is roleplaying wrong? I build my protagonists through cooperation with ingame options too, but who is to say you can't have an idea going in of who he/she is and as such, have an idea as to how they ought to respond?

Personally, I don't really have any strong feelings either way about the way sibling death at the beginning of the game was presented – I can't say it made a huge impact on me, but I wouldn't say that it fell flat either. It does make me cringe when I see it because of how sudden and gruesome it is.

Speaking more generally, though, I would have preferred to see Hawke interact with his or her family in more everyday circumstances before being thrust into the action – that would have helped me to feel more invested from the very beginning.

Modifié par jillabender, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Plaintiff]

LPPrince wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I've never engaged emotionally with the death of a character in such a way, except for some TV shows, when I got angry because I felt like a character's potential had been squandered, while the boring ones got to live.

Well, the developers can't really help that.

It says more about you than the games they make, which isn't a bad thing. It just can't be helped.

Well I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or that the quality of Bioware's writing is poor.

I don't feel as if the emotional disconnect has a negative impact on my experience, I enjoy DA2 very much. I'm just perplexed by this stance that so many people are espousing; ie, that they can't properly roleplay Hawke because, for whatever reason, they don't care about his family. Isn't it enough to know that Hawke cares about his family? Hawke had a life and a history before the player took over the reins of his free will, and so did every permutation of the Warden.

People are entitled to their own feelings of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

[Iosev]

I personally think the early death of one sibling is not so much that Bioware wanted players to grieve or mourn the death (and in turn, feel its impact), but to differentiate the playthroughs between a mage and non-mage Hawke as early as possible. Carver and Bethany provide different perspectives regarding the issue of magic, and if they join the the templars or circle magi, respectively, they provide a personal face behind each faction.

Ultimately, I think deaths early in the game are difficult to derive impact from (at least for me).  When I played through the Human Noble origin, I often forgot that my character even had a family, except during occassional references to the origin.  I think deaths that occur towards the latter portions of the game are where players should expect more impact.

Modifié par arcelonious, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:23 .

[LPPrince]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or that the quality of Bioware's writing is poor.

I don't feel as if the emotional disconnect has a negative impact on my experience, I enjoy DA2 very much. I'm just perplexed by this stance that so many people are espousing; ie, that they can't properly roleplay Hawke because, for whatever reason, they don't care about his family. Isn't it enough to know that Hawke cares about his family? Hawke had a life and a history before the player took over the reins of his free will, and so did every permutation of the Warden.

People are entitled to their own feelings of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

The thing here is that I think players tend to believe Hawke feels more like Bioware's character than their own. I know I feel that way(to an extent).

Players want to BE the characters they roleplay in the games. Or rather, they want the characters to be THEM. So if a character's family member dies, the player wants to FEEL the pain. They want to hurt. It adds emotion(clearly) and a driving force to accomplish any related in-game goals(back to what I said earlier about redemption).

If there's no proper build up to a family member's death, that family member might as well of been a stranger. Even acquaintances get more feelings out of people when they die.

[tmp7704]

LPPrince wrote...

Players want to BE the characters they roleplay in the games. Or rather, they want the characters to be THEM. So if a character's family member dies, the player wants to FEEL the pain. They want to hurt. It adds emotion(clearly) and a driving force to accomplish any related in-game goals(back to what I said earlier about redemption).

That's my understanding of it as well. Some players want their rp to be "first person experience" rather than "third person" so to speak. Or a difference between being the director who has to decide how the actors should act/react in the scenario, and the actor who might need to feel what their character is supposed to feel, in order to provide believable performance.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Wynne]

What people have been talking about on this page is exactly what I mean. We have to be given the feeling that these people should matter to us, not just Hawke, or else it will never work as well. It only really has full impact if we feel a bond with the characters, generally through shared crises (unless a person is unusually sensitive to the subject material; some people are just suckers for a dramatic story, it's why soap operas exist) and preferably without knowing for sure who or what will be lost.

That's why families go on camping trips--shared crises bring people together. I'd actually love to see a story where you have family members, but instead of all dying, they go through journeys like Hawke and the surviving sibling can in DA2. You both suffer, but still have each other. Like that, but a more up-close version where nobody has to disappear for a while. It would've been nice if you'd had more time with Ashley and Kaidan in ME3, on that note.

Characters you feel like you know, who remind you of people you know, are generally much more interesting than characters who feel like cartoons or cardboard cutouts or redshirts. The feeling of "knowing someone" in a game is priceless.

Modifié par Wynne, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[jillabender]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't feel as if the emotional disconnect has a negative impact on my experience, I enjoy DA2 very much. I'm just perplexed by this stance that so many people are espousing; ie, that they can't properly roleplay Hawke because, for whatever reason, they don't care about his family. Isn't it enough to know that Hawke cares about his family? Hawke had a life and a history before the player took over the reins of his free will, and so did every permutation of the Warden.

People are entitled to their own feelings of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would say that I did have some trouble connecting with Hawke, but not because I didn't care about Hawke or his or her family. Some of Hawke's interactions with his or her family – for example, the heated argument with Carver – were among my favourite moments in the game.

The reason for my difficulty is a bit hard to express – somehow, when I hear Hawke speak, I feel as though there's something I'm missing. There's just something about the way Hawke expresses himself, or herself, that keeps me at a distance from him or her. I've gone into that at length on other threads, though, so I won't get into detail here. :happy:

I tend to approach role-playing characters in cRPGs as though I'm stepping into the role of a character who might be quite different from me. I can play a character whose emotional reaction to a situation is different from what mine would be, but I want to understand the character on a deep level so that I can inhabit the role of that character the way an actor might – and I found that I wasn't quite able to do that with Hawke as consistently as I would have liked. But that's just me.

Modifié par jillabender, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[frostajulie]

I was devestated on my first playthru when my sib died but I am the oldest of a trio of brats and I worship my little brothers almost as much as I torment them. It was THE moment I became Hawke. The rest of the game I was trying to protect Bethany or in my 2nd playthru understand my hotheaded little brother Carver I was totally gut punched when he joined the templars and took it personally as a betrayal. I also rpd guilt and rage toward the mother for the rest of the game since she essentially blamed Hawke. I was never able to warm to Lelandra's character because of this.

I felt that the siblings death did have meaning and it was pivotal to my engagement in the story. different strokes I guess.

[Allan Schumacher]

EDIT: Nevermind

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 30 septembre 2012 - 09:03 .

[Realmzmaster]

Each person roleplays in a different way. Some people want to be the character or have the the character become them. Some gamers roleplay the character and how they think the character would feel depending on what type of Hawke they choose to play.

If I am roleplaying a caring Hawke seeing my sibling dead and my mother upset would upset me as well. If I am playing the joking Hawke then I hid the pain behind humor. If I am the aggressive Hawke I may think serves the sibling right for being stupid and mother needs to get her act together or join the sibling.

Neither way of roleplaying is wrong and neither is the level of immersion a gamer may or may not feel. Sometimes real life can creep in and impact our thinking when something in game reminds us of what has happened in real life.

[LPPrince]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EDIT: Nevermind

David Gaider once gave a tip a long time ago- when something ruffles your feathers on the forums, type what you want to say without posting it, take a 15 minute or so break, then come back, look at it, and see if its worth posting.

What you can do now is look over the last page or so and comment on how people perceive familial death differently.

Good read.

[Allan Schumacher]

It's mostly that I realized I misread a post and drew incorrect conclusions from it

[LPPrince]

My ninja attempt to get Allan to respond to my post on the last page of the differences between the Cousland and Hawke deaths failed miserably.

Attempt 2- In a completely nonchalant manner, casually mention that I failed to get him to respond to it in an attempt to guilt trip him into doing it.

Chance of success- Closer to none than slim.

If success is reached- Purchase Allan a beer.

[Pelle6666]

Yes, a character dieing a heroic death should be a possible way of resolve some mission. Like Grunts "sacrifice" in Me3, a tank buying you time to escape and then give us a emotionally brutal cut scene where this character charge the enemy one last time and goes out in a blaze of glory! Yes! I want that more the more I think about it! It will definably make me cry, but that is what drama is supposed to do.

[Icinix]

LPPrince wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Well I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or that the quality of Bioware's writing is poor.

I don't feel as if the emotional disconnect has a negative impact on my experience, I enjoy DA2 very much. I'm just perplexed by this stance that so many people are espousing; ie, that they can't properly roleplay Hawke because, for whatever reason, they don't care about his family. Isn't it enough to know that Hawke cares about his family? Hawke had a life and a history before the player took over the reins of his free will, and so did every permutation of the Warden.

People are entitled to their own feelings of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

The thing here is that I think players tend to believe Hawke feels more like Bioware's character than their own. I know I feel that way(to an extent).

Players want to BE the characters they roleplay in the games. Or rather, they want the characters to be THEM. So if a character's family member dies, the player wants to FEEL the pain. They want to hurt. It adds emotion(clearly) and a driving force to accomplish any related in-game goals(back to what I said earlier about redemption).

If there's no proper build up to a family member's death, that family member might as well of been a stranger. Even acquaintances get more feelings out of people when they die.

This is exactly it. In both Mass Effect 3 and DA2 - it wasn't MY character on the screen experiencing these things, it was BioWares character.

I want to be moved by something in a game, I love watching a movie and being a pulpy mess of tears, and I want gaming to do that too - but its such a fragile thing and if you push just a little too hard - rather than tears you get groans of frustration and even laughter.

I don't even know if they need to present the character on screens emotional response - as long as we as players are affected - as long as our character isn't on the screen crying "Whoa is me" you're experiencing that emotion through your character regardless.

[LPPrince]

Pelle6666 wrote...

Yes, a character dieing a heroic death should be a possible way of resolve some mission. Like Grunts "sacrifice" in Me3, a tank buying you time to escape and then give us a emotionally brutal cut scene where this character charge the enemy one last time and goes out in a blaze of glory! Yes! I want that more the more I think about it! It will definably make me cry, but that is what drama is supposed to do.

Agreed. Grunt's death was emotional and tugged at my heartstrings, but thats because we had time to get to know Grunt prior to his sacrifice.

Think of it like wine.

The older the bottle, the better its likely to be(if it was handled right). In the end however, it'll take you just as long to drink a crap glass of wine as a great one.

If at all possible, set up these moments after some build up to make them matter.

[LPPrince]

Also, and though it can't be helped, I think another thing that makes these moments emotional is the perception of the moment in a player's head.

Example- dialogue. Hearing your character get sad and cry can make you feel like crap, but so can reading the lines in your head and "hearing it" in your own voice.

But hearing it in another's voice is okay, and that's what we'll get.

[TheRealJayDee]

I just watched a friend play episode 3 of the "The Walking Dead" game, after having played it myself before. The game manages to create emotion in the character and in the player, and damn, they done it it right. The game features a lot of death and despair, and it does this really well. A huge part of this is that the characters feel like real people, and, also really important, that violence and death is actually something unpleasant and scary.

Like someone (tmp7704?) said: it's not going to be easier making deaths emotional and meaningful when you have your players/their characters casually slaughter 10-30 people just on their way to have lunch a few streets away. Maybe that's just my problem, but while I understand that combat is and will be big part of most RPGs there are different ways to handle it.

Making the combat the way it was in DA2 (uber-flashy, endless waves, rarely avoidable) did not make it impossible to affect me with scenes that dealt with death and loss, but it definitely raised the requirements in both writing and presentation. And as far as I'm concerned DA2 mostly failed in both aspects.

[LPPrince]

Well, DA3 in my opinion needs slower combat than DA2 anyway. Faster than DAO as well.

And yes, that could affect a player psychologically going into emotional moments.

[Zetheria Tabris]

I think Bethany/Carver's death would have made an impact if we actually had a chance to talk to them first, like we did with the Tabris and Cousland origin - it's as simple as that.

[LPPrince]

Tabris is what, City Elf Origin? (no idea, can't recall)

Will check...

CORRECT.

*self brohoof*

I only ever played the City Elf Origin and not a whole playthrough with a City Elf, hence my lapse in memory.

[Vandicus]

LPPrince wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...

Yes, a character dieing a heroic death should be a possible way of resolve some mission. Like Grunts "sacrifice" in Me3, a tank buying you time to escape and then give us a emotionally brutal cut scene where this character charge the enemy one last time and goes out in a blaze of glory! Yes! I want that more the more I think about it! It will definably make me cry, but that is what drama is supposed to do.

Agreed. Grunt's death was emotional and tugged at my heartstrings, but thats because we had time to get to know Grunt prior to his sacrifice.

Think of it like wine.

The older the bottle, the better its likely to be(if it was handled right). In the end however, it'll take you just as long to drink a crap glass of wine as a great one.

If at all possible, set up these moments after some build up to make them matter.

For myself, generally the characters that I know longer have more "meaningful" deaths. I didn't care about the Couslands any more than I did about sibling A when they got walloped in DA2. They mattered marginally more to me than redshirt NPC #13 falling off a cliff. I felt sibling B was given a sufficient amount of time if the player uses them. Shorter than that, and well, anyone remember the names of those two Warden recruits who failed the Joining in DA:O? I sure as hell don't.

[LPPrince]

Ser Jory and Daveth. I remember them because while I didn't care too much for them(Duncan and Alistair stole the show), Daveth was the one who introduced us to the lethality of joining the Grey Wardens and Ser Jory introduced us to the lethality of being a punk about joining the Grey Wardens.

Haha