275 réponses à ce sujet

[mrs_anomaly]

*puts fingers in ears* La La La I'm just going to pretend that Shepard breathes and lives happily ever after rebuilding earth and pulling a George Washington re: being Emperor of Earth and gets to hang out in a cabin in Canada with Kaidan and that is CANON La La La...

[ZIPO396]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

*puts fingers in ears* La La La I'm just going to pretend that Shepard breathes and lives happily ever after rebuilding earth and pulling a George Washington re: being Emperor of Earth and gets to hang out in a cabin in Canada with Kaidan and that is CANON La La La...

Yeah that's what you need to do for the endings.

[ld1449]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Let's not get into this "breathe scene/Shepard Lives" debate....again.

It's quite obvious. Anybody that has a lick of common sense and understands visual storytelling, perfectly understands that Shepard in fact survives.

If people want to be in denial or just want to believe that he dies so that they may have yet another reason to bash Bioware....then let them. No reason to waste your time arguing with a brick wall or somebody that already has their mind made up.

Anybody that knows a thing or two about the limitations of the human body and has a lick of common sense would indeed have a very tough time suspending enough disbelief to convince himself that Sheps alive.

If by "visual storytelling" you mean they put a ten second clip of a lovely charred torso infront of you. Then sure.

To just list ONE injury that Shepard has that would kill him (very slowly and very painfully) At least one piece of shrapnel is in his stomach.

His armor is "unbroken" over the stomach area, yet when he pulls his hand away after Anderson "best seats in the house" moment, its covered in blood.

This means something slipped through that armor and is now lodged firmly in his gut.

Do you know how people die from gut wounds? It aint pretty. And it aint quick.

The blood loss isn't the biggest problem. Compared to other organs like the liver and the kidneys the stomach would actually bleed very little comparatively.

The biggest problem is your stomach acid.

With the sac of your stomach lining broken that digestive fluid isn't going to simply stay there sittin pretty. Its going to seep out. What do you think acid does to unprotected intestines and organs?

Lets just look at the intestines and not the host of other organs it will undoubtebly affect.

The disolving of those can go from several minutes to an hour. Once its gone though, its gone. There's very little that can be done even with modern medicine. Because at that point your own waste is going to infect you. Considering your stomach is ripped open and you're sustaining damage to the rest of your organs that will hit your bloodstream fairly quickly. Then you're dead.

If that doesn't get him, there are most definitely burns, all of which can be easilly infected if left untreated for an extended period of time.

If that doesn't get him there's the internal bleeding that he must have, if not at Harbingers beam then certainly after the explosion from the tube. The concussive force alone would be enough to break his ribs, which could lead of course to a punctured lung.

If THOSE things don't get him, then X fall off of whatever height after he shot the tube would.

It takes a surprising amount of height to kill people. But given the dammage he's already sustained any more trauma and he will most likely die.

So yeah. At which point am I lacking common sense? Is it the part that I decided to not accept the rendition of a torso taking a gasp in the rubble???

[mrs_anomaly]

ld1449 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Let's not get into this "breathe scene/Shepard Lives" debate....again.

It's quite obvious. Anybody that has a lick of common sense and understands visual storytelling, perfectly understands that Shepard in fact survives.

If people want to be in denial or just want to believe that he dies so that they may have yet another reason to bash Bioware....then let them. No reason to waste your time arguing with a brick wall or somebody that already has their mind made up.

Anybody that knows a thing or two about the limitations of the human body and has a lick of common sense would indeed have a very tough time suspending enough disbelief to convince himself that Sheps alive.

If by "visual storytelling" you mean they put a ten second clip of a lovely charred torso infront of you. Then sure.

To just list ONE injury that Shepard has that would kill him (very slowly and very painfully) At least one piece of shrapnel is in his stomach.

His armor is "unbroken" over the stomach area, yet when he pulls his hand away after Anderson "best seats in the house" moment, its covered in blood.

This means something slipped through that armor and is now lodged firmly in his gut.

Do you know how people die from gut wounds? It aint pretty. And it aint quick.

The blood loss isn't the biggest problem. Compared to other organs like the liver and the kidneys the stomach would actually bleed very little comparatively.

The biggest problem is your stomach acid.

With the sac of your stomach lining broken that digestive fluid isn't going to simply stay there sittin pretty. Its going to seep out. What do you think acid does to unprotected intestines and organs?

Lets just look at the intestines and not the host of other organs it will undoubtebly affect.

The disolving of those can go from several minutes to an hour. Once its gone though, its gone. There's very little that can be done even with modern medicine. Because at that point your own waste is going to infect you. Considering your stomach is ripped open and you're sustaining damage to the rest of your organs that will hit your bloodstream fairly quickly. Then you're dead.

If that doesn't get him, there are most definitely burns, all of which can be easilly infected if left untreated for an extended period of time.

If that doesn't get him there's the internal bleeding that he must have, if not at Harbingers beam then certainly after the explosion from the tube. The concussive force alone would be enough to break his ribs, which could lead of course to a punctured lung.

If THOSE things don't get him, then X fall off of whatever height after he shot the tube would.

It takes a surprising amount of height to kill people. But given the dammage he's already sustained any more trauma and he will most likely die.

So yeah. At which point am I lacking common sense? Is it the part that I decided to not accept the rendition of a torso taking a gasp in the rubble???

While I'm still pretending that Shepard lives on and has cocktails with her LI and we play "rebuild Earth camp" with sexytimes..its better than remembering the absolutely logical conclusion that Shep is burning alive by her own stomach acids and bleeding out in some dirty rubble in the middle of a war zone. Besides, I see no pressing reason to really force myself into conforming with perfect logic in this particular moment of the game when really there is nothing supremely logical about the story at large . . Mah biotics keep Shep alive...it creates a barrier between the horrid stomach acid and my precious organs. 

Modifié par mrs_anomaly, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:24 .

[EnvyTB075]

Shes already died once, living at the end of ME3 means FAR more than a second death.

[Mcfly616]

ld1449 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Let's not get into this "breathe scene/Shepard Lives" debate....again.

It's quite obvious. Anybody that has a lick of common sense and understands visual storytelling, perfectly understands that Shepard in fact survives.

If people want to be in denial or just want to believe that he dies so that they may have yet another reason to bash Bioware....then let them. No reason to waste your time arguing with a brick wall or somebody that already has their mind made up.

Anybody that knows a thing or two about the limitations of the human body and has a lick of common sense would indeed have a very tough time suspending enough disbelief to convince himself that Sheps alive.

If by "visual storytelling" you mean they put a ten second clip of a lovely charred torso infront of you. Then sure.

To just list ONE injury that Shepard has that would kill him (very slowly and very painfully) At least one piece of shrapnel is in his stomach.

His armor is "unbroken" over the stomach area, yet when he pulls his hand away after Anderson "best seats in the house" moment, its covered in blood.

This means something slipped through that armor and is now lodged firmly in his gut.

Do you know how people die from gut wounds? It aint pretty. And it aint quick.

The blood loss isn't the biggest problem. Compared to other organs like the liver and the kidneys the stomach would actually bleed very little comparatively.

The biggest problem is your stomach acid.

With the sac of your stomach lining broken that digestive fluid isn't going to simply stay there sittin pretty. Its going to seep out. What do you think acid does to unprotected intestines and organs?

Lets just look at the intestines and not the host of other organs it will undoubtebly affect.

The disolving of those can go from several minutes to an hour. Once its gone though, its gone. There's very little that can be done even with modern medicine. Because at that point your own waste is going to infect you. Considering your stomach is ripped open and you're sustaining damage to the rest of your organs that will hit your bloodstream fairly quickly. Then you're dead.

If that doesn't get him, there are most definitely burns, all of which can be easilly infected if left untreated for an extended period of time.

If that doesn't get him there's the internal bleeding that he must have, if not at Harbingers beam then certainly after the explosion from the tube. The concussive force alone would be enough to break his ribs, which could lead of course to a punctured lung.

If THOSE things don't get him, then X fall off of whatever height after he shot the tube would.

It takes a surprising amount of height to kill people. But given the dammage he's already sustained any more trauma and he will most likely die.

So yeah. At which point am I lacking common sense? Is it the part that I decided to not accept the rendition of a torso taking a gasp in the rubble???

because you obviously don't grasp the significance of the scenes inclusion. Sorry, not trying to sound rude, I know it can come off that way in the form of text. For one, its a videogame....who's protagonist has died before and come back, along with many other characters that have survived certain death situations....I'm willing to suspend disbelief based on those merits. Then again, my "suspension of.disbelief" is not even called into question because of the presentation of the memorial wall scene along with the breathe scene.

"A stubborn enough person can survive just about anything. Rage is a hell of an anesthetic." - Zaeed

[Peranor]

If the implications of the breath scene was so clear then Bioware would have said that "Yes, Shepard does indeed live".
Not "Lol, we really wanted to kill off Shepard once and for all but was to chicken to go through with it so we left him in a quantum state to keep the fans of our backs"

Modifié par anorling, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:36 .

[AlanC9]

ld1449 wrote...
If THOSE things don't get him, then X fall off of whatever height after he shot the tube would.

This part depends on gravity. He's apparently pretty close to the center of the Citadel's rotation, which would make gravity quite low. Much lower than the Presidium's 0.3 standard.

[Mcfly616]

anorling wrote...



If the implications of the breath scene was so clear then Bioware would have said that "Yes, Shepard does indeed live".
Not "Lol, we really wanted to kill off Shepard once and for all but was to chicken to go through with it so we left him in a quantum state to keep the fans of our backs"

I believe you paraphrased...that is not a direct quote. And I could care less about a statement for some PR damage control. It's obvious they don't want to alienate fans from their own beliefs. They have seen and therefore know, if they were to state a blatant answer one way or the other it would be highly criticised by a good portion of the fanbase. In short, it would be a no win situation. So basically, for those fans that don't comprehend the message the breathe scene was getting across, Bioware is basically telling you to: "believe whatever you want then" (paraphrase ofcourse)

If I needed any clarity whatsoever, I would simply take the official strategy guides word for it("Shepard Lives") and/or the file name for the breathe scene. (Shepard_alive......or some crap) but, I'm not one in need of clarity

[Peranor]

Mcfly616 wrote...

anorling wrote...



If the implications of the breath scene was so clear then Bioware would have said that "Yes, Shepard does indeed live".
Not "Lol, we really wanted to kill off Shepard once and for all but was to chicken to go through with it so we left him in a quantum state to keep the fans of our backs"

I believe you paraphrased...that is not a direct quote. And I could care less about a statement for some PR damage control. It's obvious they don't want to alienate fans from their own beliefs. They have seen and therefore know, if they were to state a blatant answer one way or the other it would be highly criticised by a good portion of the fanbase. In short, it would be a no win situation. So basically, for those fans that don't comprehend the message the breathe scene was getting across, Bioware is basically telling you to: "believe whatever you want then" (paraphrase ofcourse)

If I needed any clarity whatsoever, I would simply take the official strategy guides word for it("Shepard Lives") and/or the file name for the breathe scene. (Shepard_alive......or some crap) but, I'm not one in need of clarity

Ha! No, but admit it would be funny if  "Lol, we really wanted to kill off Shepard once and for all but was to chicken to go through with it so we left him in a quantum state to keep the fans of our backs" really was a direct quote from a Bioware official
 

Modifié par anorling, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:56 .

[Andy the Black]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Terminus Echoes wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You only need 3100 to get the breath scene, so with over 5000 you'll be fine.

"That's Shepard's last breath!"

That doesn't sound like a last breath to me. That sounds like a "waking up from unconsciousness" breath. I never understood that speculation.

Destroy destroys all synthetics.

Shepard is partially synthetic. The part of his/her brain that controls memory almost has to be synthetic (after ME2). Even if he/she did survive, it may not be them anymore.

Destroy destroys all synthetics life.

EDI says Shep's brain functions are still organic when talking about Trans-humans. It's also never said how much of Shep is synthetic. Given that organ cloning is the norm in Mass Effect it's save to assume most if not all his/her organs are also organic. Most of Shep's cybernetic implants are probably bone structure or organ support, in which case their nothing more than prosthetics and not alive.

[ld1449]

Mcfly616 wrote...

 because you obviously don't grasp the significance of the scenes inclusion. Sorry, not trying to sound rude, I know it can come off that way in the form of text. For one, its a videogame....who's protagonist has died before and come back, along with many other characters that have survived certain death situations....I'm willing to suspend disbelief based on those merits. Then again, my "suspension of.disbelief" is not even called into question because of the presentation of the memorial wall scene along with the breathe scene.

"A stubborn enough person can survive just about anything. Rage is a hell of an anesthetic." - Zaeed

I'm fairly certain soldiers KIA were quite angry right before that bullet found them.

In all seriousness however, the point made is that there is plenty of reason to believe Shepard is dead and simply arguing that "they put it in there so he must obviously live" does not fly with many people, and for good reason.

If I told you in a story a submarine gets hit, starts to sink at 700 feet below the surface, then I cut to black and come back with the glimpse of the protagonist breaking the surface and taking a gasp of air before cutting to black again, would you breathe in relief "Oh thank god he's obviously alive." or look at your screen like "Huh? But- he didn't have diving gear! Even if he did the pressure and cold would kill him! And...and...he's in the dead middle of the atlantic ocean!"

It doesn't work HERE for similar reasons. There is FAR too much between point A (Submarine/Crucible firing) and point B (Protagonist gasping scene)  and point C (rescue). They're DEMANDING blatant LEAPS. Not even skips or steps LEAPS of logic.

"Oh but you know maybe his injuries arent as bad as they look/seem. Maybe he didn't fall that far from the Crucible platform. Maybe the explosion missed most of him. Maybe they found him in time. Maybe his cibernetics sustained him. Maybe the Catalyst was lying about the beam wiping out all sinthetics when he added that shep was partly synthetic.

Maybe maybe maybe maybe.

When you require that word in an explanation to your work, you have failed on some level. Authors detest the word maybe unless the story supports open speculation and puzzle workouts like "Dark Souls" and "Demon Souls"

There are stories that support "trick" or complex endings like 2001 Space Odisey for example, or Neon Genesis Evangelion, or "The sixth sense" or this other movie "The Others" I believe it was called or any number of other genres.

BUT the key in these stories is that the narative supported such a thing. Either because they involved heavy symbolism since the start, or were made to make you think, or always hada vague aura of "wrongness" about the whole situation. Like something just wasn't clicking for the audience throughout the length of the story.

Mass Effect however, did not have any of these things because everything was explained in minute detail. They even have an in game codex with approximately 700 pages or so worth of information for the audience to read so they can understand everything.

So there is no symbolism involved. Neither is there a sense of "wrongness" or "missing a puzzle piece"

Theonly criteria that Mass Effect had out of the ones above was "To make you think" and even then its mostly Metagame thinking rather than ingamethinking.

Take Heavy rain. Heavy rain had "In game thinking" because you were wondering who the hell was the Origami killer with the ingame information provided Your entire thinking process revolved aroundin game information.

Mass Effect however has always made the audience use Metagame thinking to answer the questions they bring up with the audience.

Themoral implications of letting the rachni live or killing them is not something that can be decided in the vacuum of in-game thinking. The person's own morality and knowledge of other genres is gonna come into play when deciding which is right or wrong.

So right there you're removing the isolation of in game or in world thinking that is necessary to support the suspension of disbelief required for a complex ending to be pulled off right. Its what lead to so many people taking such a grim view in the original endings. Because with lack of in game knowledge on WTF is going on, they went to external sources. The implication that everyone's gonna end up killing eachother in the Sol system for the last few resources, the fact that the Normandy crew is stranded and gonna die on that plannet ect. Which was not helped by the in game knowledge of the necessity of Mass Relays and the implications they bring when blowing up.

And its what continues to bring negative interpretations. With control decriers bringing up AI's like Hal 2000 and Mendicant Bias and Synthesis decriers bringing up all the moral implications like slavery in deciding the fate of the entire galaxy and so on and so forth.

You can't ask people to bring in their out world knowledge throughout your narrative to determine what decisions they'll be making to then suddenly demand that they cut off their thought process at the begining and end of the established universe. If its to accept the choices presented or a Torso taking a gasp it doesn't click with many and this is why many people STILL hate the ending because it is literally not clicking with them and still seems like it deserves to be in an ENTIRELY different game just by the structure it has taken.

Unless the LI has telepathy him/her not putting up the plaque could be considered token sentimentalism of not wanting to let go. Many people do it.

Given the personality traits of many of the LI's them not putting up the plaque is actually more in character than them putting it up without hesitation in Control/Synthesis.

Garrus is like a dog with a bone when it comes to certain things. His desire to escape the rules of C-sec, His desire to kill Sidonis. Its not unbelievable this trait would extend to his belief in Shepards survival.

Tali practically Hero worships Shepard, I can easilly see her choosing not to believe Shepard is dead until she sees a body.

Kaidain is a "romantic" he'd hold out as much hope as possible.

Cortez Liara and Traynor I've never romanced so I don't know them that well but Liara right off the bat I can tell you borders on obsessive given her work in pursuit of the Shadow Broker alone so her clinging to that plaque also falls into denial.

I understand what you're saying that they wouldn't put it in there if it doesn't mean something. But for people like me, who practically demand that things presented hold water, ME3's "he lives" ending doesn't hold up to a lick of scrutiny. So even without the structural problems of the ending it doesn't even stand up to even a half assed perusal.

What I take issue with is the apparently rampant belief that has taken over the boards that the people who hate the endings are just inherentlyin the wrong and that they just want to hate on the game just because we can and "Haters gonna hate". Its not that we WANT to hate on the game. I WANT to be able to play the game again. I don't WANT to be on boards discussing everything wrong with the Hack's writing abilities.

I for my part have very valid reasons why I simply cannot accept a good chunk of the things presented within the last 10 mins of this game and I've pointed out here why many people still find them wrong and unnaceptable. I could write MORE because ME3's original ending fails on almost every single literary level I've ever heard of.

Works will always disregard one or two rules. Its almost Necesary to get an "original" idea going these days. But ME3 discarded every single rule ever written. And the EC patched things up but that's all it did. Its not a full healing salve, the wound remains very much bleeding to a lot of people. And even to people that are ok with it. That's it. Its
limited to being Ok. And there is a big difference between satisfied and resigned.



@Ms anomaly

You can choose to headcannon it, that's fine. In fact, I somewhat envy your ability to do so. I'm not saying its wrong to like the endings. As I said above, I just dislike it when people state that there are no reasons to dislike it.

Modifié par ld1449, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:09 .

[ld1449]

AlanC9 wrote...

ld1449 wrote...
If THOSE things don't get him, then X fall off of whatever height after he shot the tube would.

This part depends on gravity. He's apparently pretty close to the center of the Citadel's rotation, which would make gravity quite low. Much lower than the Presidium's 0.3 standard.

Huh. Never thought of that one:huh: Good point. :wizard:Have a cookie

[Mcfly616]

I've never had a problem with people that "dislike" it. I'm just not a fan of those that say "I dislike it, therefore it was bad"

I've seen plenty of movies/games that weren't my "thing". "Not my cup of tea", "not for me"....I'm not gonna go and say they suck because it wasn't my type of story or it didn't turn out how I thought it would.

Hell, I hated the Original Endings.

The Extended Cut was much better. It added enough clarity and closure to go on. The original endings had no such clarity or closure. (My opinion, ofcourse)

Modifié par Mcfly616, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:23 .

[ld1449]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I've never had a problem with people that "dislike" it. I'm just not a fan of those that say "I dislike it, therefore it was bad"

I've seen plenty of movies/games that weren't my "thing". "Not my cup of tea", "not for me"....I'm not gonna go and say they suck because it wasn't my type of story or it didn't turn out how I thought it would.

Hell, I hated the Original Endings.

The Extended Cut was much better. It added enough clarity and closure to go on. The original endings had no such clarity or closure. (My opinion, ofcourse)

Everyone hated the original endings.

If you can find ten people in person who loved the original endings in your lifetime it'll probably go in guiness.

As for me, the Extended cut fell shy of being acceptable. Its close, but it needs an extra push.

[Peranor]

ld1449 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

 because you obviously don't grasp the significance of the scenes inclusion. Sorry, not trying to sound rude, I know it can come off that way in the form of text. For one, its a videogame....who's protagonist has died before and come back, along with many other characters that have survived certain death situations....I'm willing to suspend disbelief based on those merits. Then again, my "suspension of.disbelief" is not even called into question because of the presentation of the memorial wall scene along with the breathe scene.

"A stubborn enough person can survive just about anything. Rage is a hell of an anesthetic." - Zaeed

I'm fairly certain soldiers KIA were quite angry right before that bullet found them.

In all seriousness however, the point made is that there is plenty of reason to believe Shepard is dead and simply arguing that "they put it in there so he must obviously live" does not fly with many people, and for good reason.

If I told you in a story a submarine gets hit, starts to sink at 700 feet below the surface, then I cut to black and come back with the glimpse of the protagonist breaking the surface and taking a gasp of air before cutting to black again, would you breathe in relief "Oh thank god he's obviously alive." or look at your screen like "Huh? But- he didn't have diving gear! Even if he did the pressure and cold would kill him! And...and...he's in the dead middle of the atlantic ocean!"

It doesn't work HERE for similar reasons. There is FAR too much between point A (Submarine/Crucible firing) and point B (Protagonist gasping scene)  and point C (rescue). They're DEMANDING blatant LEAPS. Not even skips or steps LEAPS of logic.

"Oh but you know maybe his injuries arent as bad as they look/seem. Maybe he didn't fall that far from the Crucible platform. Maybe the explosion missed most of him. Maybe they found him in time. Maybe his cibernetics sustained him. Maybe the Catalyst was lying about the beam wiping out all sinthetics when he added that shep was partly synthetic.

Maybe maybe maybe maybe.

When you require that word in an explanation to your work, you have failed on some level. Authors detest the word maybe unless the story supports open speculation and puzzle workouts like "Dark Souls" and "Demon Souls"

There are stories that support "trick" or complex endings like 2001 Space Odisey for example, or Neon Genesis Evangelion, or "The sixth sense" or this other movie "The Others" I believe it was called or any number of other genres.

BUT the key in these stories is that the narative supported such a thing. Either because they involved heavy symbolism since the start, or were made to make you think, or always hada vague aura of "wrongness" about the whole situation. Like something just wasn't clicking for the audience throughout the length of the story.

Mass Effect however, did not have any of these things because everything was explained in minute detail. They even have an in game codex with approximately 700 pages or so worth of information for the audience to read so they can understand everything.

So there is no symbolism involved. Neither is there a sense of "wrongness" or "missing a puzzle piece"

Theonly criteria that Mass Effect had out of the ones above was "To make you think" and even then its mostly Metagame thinking rather than ingamethinking.

Take Heavy rain. Heavy rain had "In game thinking" because you were wondering who the hell was the Origami killer with the ingame information provided Your entire thinking process revolved aroundin game information.

Mass Effect however has always made the audience use Metagame thinking to answer the questions they bring up with the audience.

Themoral implications of letting the rachni live or killing them is not something that can be decided in the vacuum of in-game thinking. The person's own morality and knowledge of other genres is gonna come into play when deciding which is right or wrong.

So right there you're removing the isolation of in game or in world thinking that is necessary to support the suspension of disbelief required for a complex ending to be pulled off right. Its what lead to so many people taking such a grim view in the original endings. Because with lack of in game knowledge on WTF is going on, they went to external sources. The implication that everyone's gonna end up killing eachother in the Sol system for the last few resources, the fact that the Normandy crew is stranded and gonna die on that plannet ect. Which was not helped by the in game knowledge of the necessity of Mass Relays and the implications they bring when blowing up.

And its what continues to bring negative interpretations. With control decriers bringing up AI's like Hal 2000 and Mendicant Bias and Synthesis decriers bringing up all the moral implications like slavery in deciding the fate of the entire galaxy and so on and so forth.

You can't ask people to bring in their out world knowledge throughout your narrative to determine what decisions they'll be making to then suddenly demand that they cut off their thought process at the begining and end of the established universe. If its to accept the choices presented or a Torso taking a gasp it doesn't click with many and this is why many people STILL hate the ending because it is literally not clicking with them and still seems like it deserves to be in an ENTIRELY different game just by the structure it has taken.

Unless the LI has telepathy him/her not putting up the plaque could be considered token sentimentalism of not wanting to let go. Many people do it.

Given the personality traits of many of the LI's them not putting up the plaque is actually more in character than them putting it up without hesitation in Control/Synthesis.

Garrus is like a dog with a bone when it comes to certain things. His desire to escape the rules of C-sec, His desire to kill Sidonis. Its not unbelievable this trait would extend to his belief in Shepards survival.

Tali practically Hero worships Shepard, I can easilly see her choosing not to believe Shepard is dead until she sees a body.

Kaidain is a "romantic" he'd hold out as much hope as possible.

Cortez Liara and Traynor I've never romanced so I don't know them that well but Liara right off the bat I can tell you borders on obsessive given her work in pursuit of the Shadow Broker alone so her clinging to that plaque also falls into denial.

I understand what you're saying that they wouldn't put it in there if it doesn't mean something. But for people like me, who practically demand that things presented hold water, ME3's "he lives" ending doesn't hold up to a lick of scrutiny. So even without the structural problems of the ending it doesn't even stand up to even a half assed perusal.

What I take issue with is the apparently rampant belief that has taken over the boards that the people who hate the endings are just inherentlyin the wrong and that they just want to hate on the game just because we can and "Haters gonna hate". Its not that we WANT to hate on the game. I WANT to be able to play the game again. I don't WANT to be on boards discussing everything wrong with the Hack's writing abilities.

I for my part have very valid reasons why I simply cannot accept a good chunk of the things presented within the last 10 mins of this game and I've pointed out here why many people still find them wrong and unnaceptable. I could write MORE because ME3's original ending fails on almost every single literary level I've ever heard of.

Works will always disregard one or two rules. Its almost Necesary to get an "original" idea going these days. But ME3 discarded every single rule ever written. And the EC patched things up but that's all it did. Its not a full healing salve, the wound remains very much bleeding to a lot of people. And even to people that are ok with it. That's it. Its
limited to being Ok. And there is a big difference between satisfied and resigned.



@Ms anomaly

You can choose to headcannon it, that's fine. In fact, I somewhat envy your ability to do so. I'm not saying its wrong to like the endings. As I said above, I just dislike it when people state that there are no reasons to dislike it.

Wall of text. But an interesting read nonetheless
I agree with your points.

[008Zulu]

I wouldn't count on Shepard surviving the Destroy ending. Shep is partially synthetic (the implants controlling his body's functions) and since all synthetics were destroyed, Shepard now has nothing regulating his internal workings. So death is close at hand.

Then again, Bioware has shown a remarkable lack of insight when it comes to science, so Shepard could very be alive.

[Icinix]

008Zulu wrote...

I wouldn't count on Shepard surviving the Destroy ending. Shep is partially synthetic (the implants controlling his body's functions) and since all synthetics were destroyed, Shepard now has nothing regulating his internal workings. So death is close at hand.

Then again, Bioware has shown a remarkable lack of insight when it comes to science, so Shepard could very be alive.

Indeed. Some of the dialogue seems to imply Shepard is a lot synthetic, and other hardly any. Then there are the upgrades as well - and what if your Shepard is a Biotic.

Too many speculations!

[Morty Smith]

It´s a different feeling to fight for victory than be given the permission to win from your enemy.

[TNT1991]

Great. Another "Shepard's breath is his last breath or not" debate.

Thanks a lot Bioware, you can't make up your mind about Shepard's survival in destroy and now we have these arguments...everywhere.  

<_<

Modifié par TNT1991, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:17 .

[Peranor]

TNT1991 wrote...

Great. Another "Shepard's breath is his last breath or not" debate.

Thanks a lot Bioware, you can't make up your mind about Shepard's survival in destroy and now we have these arguments...everywhere.  

<_<

I don't think it has to do with Bioware not being able to make up their mind whether or not to kill Shepard.
I think their original intent was quite clear and they actually wanted kill of Shepard once and for all.
The reason we got what we got was because in the end they just didn't dare to kill him in all endings. Not becasue they might change their mind in the future and want to do another game with Shepard, but because they needed a way to cover their back in case the fans for some unimaginable reason would dislike their decision to kill Shepard.

Now they ofc got a quite spectacular fan outcry anyway. But that's another story.

[dreman9999]

OP, you don't think any of the people in tragedies would not want an easy way out of the events they are placed in?

If romeo and Juliet,Hamlet, and Othello had an option for a happy ending, you think they would not take it?

You sad about the ending and what Shepard to live because of perspective and connection to the character.
That's not a bad thing.

[dreman9999]

Kroitz wrote...

It´s a different feeling to fight for victory than be given the permission to win from your enemy.

Take sometime to understand you enemy. You find that they never wanted to fight you.

[Chardonney]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Shes already died once, living at the end of ME3 means FAR more than a second death.

So this. So, so this.

[Subject M]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

SPOILERS:


I'm about to finish my second playthrough of ME3. I just landed on Earth....my husband wanted to watch football so I just saved and got on Youtube because I haven't spoiled myself on the newer extended cut endings yet. 



Wow. I am officially a hypocrite. I say this because I was a staunchly interested in having  a "good death" to save the Galaxy. I didn't care how- at least let me die to win if necessary and give me a good ending and let me know what happens a bit afterwards. An epilogue. 

Now that I've seen the variations that would apply to my Sheps- I'm just thinking...I want my Shepard to survive. But I know that really doesn't even make sense. Shepard had so little chance of surviving this entire time anyway and she made the final decision to save the Galaxy. But but but..  


I'm going to have to read a novel with an HEA to get me out of this post ME3 blues . At least ..the galaxy was saved.  

You can always go for control, pretty much save everyone and everything save for Shepards physical body.