31 réponses à ce sujet

[Dasher1010]

Justice was an angelic figure who became a demon through the blood magic of Kirkwall but what about a demon who becomes purified?

For instance a rage demon who embodies courage, a sloth demon who embodies peice, a desire demon who's more based around hedonism than averace or a pride demon who's the embodiment of duty? There are artifacts and places that can purify darkness and many demons wouldn't corrupt that place but be purified by it. What then?

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't know if spirits/demosn are the same as angels/demon from christian religion.

since technicly demons are fallen mages, then I see no reason why they couldn't get back up. However, the question is - so DA spirits/demons work that way? I'd say no.

[LolaLei]

I wonder if maybe that's what Cole might be?

[Alessa]

Well, I don't think that spirits and demons really are different beings. We ourselves can be happy and friendly on one day and full of hate and anger on another, but we still are one being. I think that demons and spirits are just different aspects of one species and that they can change their attitudes.

[septembervirgin]

Demons are not fallen mages, I think. Demons can possess the bodies of dead mages. Demons can pretend to be mages in the Fade. Demons are simply spirits that are over attentive and fond of the world, as far as we know.

And I hope Justice is not redeemed. It was probably a subtle demon all along. I wonder if we'll meet Wynne's demon down the line and feel its wrath too.

[Heimdall]

There are only spirits. Demons are just the ones that choose negative emotions. Justice was corrupted by Anders' anger and became Vengeance, but I don't think you can consider this much of a fallen angel situation.

[Alessa]

Lord Aesir wrote...

There are only spirits. Demons are just the ones that choose negative emotions. Justice was corrupted by Anders' anger and became Vengeance, but I don't think you can consider this much of a fallen angel situation.

When you listen to Justice in Awakening, you can see that there was Vengeance as part of the spirit, long before Justice merged with Anders.

[Jessihatt]

I'm pretty sure it's been said spirits and demons are the same, that a demon can be purified just as a spirit can be corrupted.

At least, I'm pretty sure I read something like that on here from a writer..

[MichaelStuart]

It would be interesting to speak to a spirit that has changed its nature, or any spirit really.

[Auintus]

I'd like to meet the opposite of Vengeance: a demon that has interacted with the world and became...enlightened, if that's a good word.
I like the idea anyway.

Modifié par Auintus, 01 octobre 2012 - 01:10 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Justice didn't become a demon through blood magic; he got influenced by human emotions.

So it would stand ground that a demon can change it's own base personality.

[Fredward]

LolaLei wrote...

I wonder if maybe that's what Cole might be?

That's what I'm hoping for!

It would really interesting to see whether it would even be possible to change the fundemental nature of a demon. I mean it should be since the opposite seems true enough.

[Shadow Fox]

I think it'd be interesting to see a demon fall in love with a human or something similar.

[Dave of Canada]

Demons and Spirits are one-track minds, though. They'd never go through other emotions other than what they fundamentally are, a rage demon wouldn't "transcend" rage. Justice only became Vengeance because vengeance is what many feel is "justice" when wronged, the same core concept of the spirit remained but was changed.

A Desire Demon would never become a Spirit of Temperance because the core concept is changed, it wouldn't be the same being. The only difference between spirits and demons are that demons wish to possess you as spirits remain passive.

[Face of Evil]

Spirits are not angels and demons are not their fallen counterparts. The Fade is neither heaven nor hell. It is simply a dream world, and its inhabitants are merely the embodiments of certain concepts - justice, faith, desire, pride, rage and so on.

I'm not sure what you mean by "artifacts and places that purify darkness." No such things exist in the Dragon Age world.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Demons and Spirits are one-track minds, though. They'd never go through other emotions other than what they fundamentally are, a rage demon wouldn't "transcend" rage. Justice only became Vengeance because vengeance is what many feel is "justice" when wronged, the same core concept of the spirit remained but was changed.

Exactly. They're just ideas. They never aspire to be more than the ideal they suscribe to.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:05 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Face of Evil wrote...
They're just ideas. They never aspire to be more than the ideal they suscribe to.

But they CAN be forced to change by circumstance.  Justice was trapped in Thedas unwillingly, and that experience slowly changed him, planting the seeds of Vengeance.  Every idea that the Fade spirits embody has more to it than just good and evil.  Justice proved that pretty convincingly in DA:A and DA2.  

But I agree it would be much more difficult for a Fade demon to undergo the same sort of transformation as Justice.  Justice coexisted with mortals and learned fro them.  A demon inherently wants to control and destroy.  Perhaps a demon trapped in some inanimate would, given lots of time, learn more about the world and change its nature, but one trapped inside a person or corpse would probably just run rampant.

[Fyurian2]

Alessa-00 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

There are only spirits. Demons are just the ones that choose negative emotions. Justice was corrupted by Anders' anger and became Vengeance, but I don't think you can consider this much of a fallen angel situation.

When you listen to Justice in Awakening, you can see that there was Vengeance as part of the spirit, long before Justice merged with Anders.

Not vengeance, but retribution. The important distinction is that vengeance is something personal, retribution is not, but both are concerned with punishment without belief of redemption, no second chance for the offender.
Justice was twisted by Anders bitternes and hate of the Chantry and Templars as a whole. That's why Anders/Vengeance was about to kill an innocent mage instead of rescuing her.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Demons and Spirits are one-track minds, though. They'd never go through other emotions other than what they fundamentally are, a rage demon wouldn't "transcend" rage. Justice only became Vengeance because vengeance is what many feel is "justice" when wronged, the same core concept of the spirit remained but was changed.

A Desire Demon would never become a Spirit of Temperance because the core concept is changed, it wouldn't be the same being. The only difference between spirits and demons are that demons wish to possess you as spirits remain passive.

That said, being a one-track mind doesn't mean it can't work out for the best, even as a demon. It might be a tad unnerving, but it's hardly impossible.

For Rage, for example, just channeling that Rage for a productive reason would be a seemingly fundamental shift. If seeing the unfairness, misery, and deprevation of the world makes you mad as it is, a Rage demon could be a powerful motivator and enabler in actually addressing those ills. (Probably more as an anti-hero vigilante, but-)


Pride, though... Pride definitely has potential for benevolence. Not to take too broad a stroke to the fanbase, but quite a few players are exceedingly Prideful when it comes to their character and perspective on the franchise: the value of a character is often measured not on their own grounds, but whether they support or obstruct the player. Sympathetic characters are almost universally those who appeal to the player, and white-knight players frequently go to extreme lengths (in game lore, not player fatigue) to achieve perfect endings for nothing but praise.

A Pride Demon possessee with a Messiah Complex could be a prototypical White Knight player character, only as a NPC. It's virtue driven by egotism, sure... but so what if it is?

[Auintus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Demons and Spirits are one-track minds, though. They'd never go through other emotions other than what they fundamentally are, a rage demon wouldn't "transcend" rage. Justice only became Vengeance because vengeance is what many feel is "justice" when wronged, the same core concept of the spirit remained but was changed.

A Desire Demon would never become a Spirit of Temperance because the core concept is changed, it wouldn't be the same being. The only difference between spirits and demons are that demons wish to possess you as spirits remain passive.

That said, being a one-track mind doesn't mean it can't work out for the best, even as a demon. It might be a tad unnerving, but it's hardly impossible.

For Rage, for example, just channeling that Rage for a productive reason would be a seemingly fundamental shift. If seeing the unfairness, misery, and deprevation of the world makes you mad as it is, a Rage demon could be a powerful motivator and enabler in actually addressing those ills. (Probably more as an anti-hero vigilante, but-)


Pride, though... Pride definitely has potential for benevolence. Not to take too broad a stroke to the fanbase, but quite a few players are exceedingly Prideful when it comes to their character and perspective on the franchise: the value of a character is often measured not on their own grounds, but whether they support or obstruct the player. Sympathetic characters are almost universally those who appeal to the player, and white-knight players frequently go to extreme lengths (in game lore, not player fatigue) to achieve perfect endings for nothing but praise.

A Pride Demon possessee with a Messiah Complex could be a prototypical White Knight player character, only as a NPC. It's virtue driven by egotism, sure... but so what if it is?

This here is easily the most interesting point on this thread. I want to see Bioware address this.

[Heimdall]

Fyurian2 wrote...

Alessa-00 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

There are only spirits. Demons are just the ones that choose negative emotions. Justice was corrupted by Anders' anger and became Vengeance, but I don't think you can consider this much of a fallen angel situation.

When you listen to Justice in Awakening, you can see that there was Vengeance as part of the spirit, long before Justice merged with Anders.

Not vengeance, but retribution. The important distinction is that vengeance is something personal, retribution is not, but both are concerned with punishment without belief of redemption, no second chance for the offender.
Justice was twisted by Anders bitternes and hate of the Chantry and Templars as a whole. That's why Anders/Vengeance was about to kill an innocent mage instead of rescuing her.

Exactly

[Maria Caliban]

Dasher1010 wrote...

...a desire demon...

I agree.

...who's more based around hedonism than averace...

I'd prefer the desire for knowledge.

[esper]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Fyurian2 wrote...

Alessa-00 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

There are only spirits. Demons are just the ones that choose negative emotions. Justice was corrupted by Anders' anger and became Vengeance, but I don't think you can consider this much of a fallen angel situation.

When you listen to Justice in Awakening, you can see that there was Vengeance as part of the spirit, long before Justice merged with Anders.

Not vengeance, but retribution. The important distinction is that vengeance is something personal, retribution is not, but both are concerned with punishment without belief of redemption, no second chance for the offender.
Justice was twisted by Anders bitternes and hate of the Chantry and Templars as a whole. That's why Anders/Vengeance was about to kill an innocent mage instead of rescuing her.

Exactly

But Justice wasn't retribution. He joined to avenge Cristoffer, he can potentionally turn on the warden off that account.

Anyway I don't believe spirits and demons are the same. I believe that they are off elf/humans difference just with creatures of the fade. No matter what they say each demon with have met have had a distinct personallity and shown a clear concept of an 'I' if it had been advanced enough to be self aware. You can succesfully negotiate and/or intimidate a demon as well as anger demons beyound demons off rage. The two spirits we have truely talked to both seems to think that they are purely their concept.

[EricHVela]

Pride. Sloth. Desire. Rage. Valor. Justice. Faith (speculation).

It seems that DA defines Pride as arrogance versus other possible definitions. It has been rather specific so far.

Desire seems to be any kind of desire including greed and love. (I say 'love' because I feel that Arl Eamon's son was making a deal out of love for his father. It is possible that the kid simply wanted to be a savior and lauded with praises, but I prefer to think that this was not the case.)

Those two spirits seem to manipulate their 'prey' through specific aspects of personalities that already exist.

Yet, Sloth seems to attempt to impose lethargy, creating the situation versus taking advantage of an existing personality trait or flaw. (I don't know why Sloth couldn't do the same as the other two. There are plenty of lazy people in the Dragon Age stories. Perhaps, it wants to snare livelier prey. Dunno.)

I don't recall any Rage possessions in the games. It seems to simply manifest in the same form as it does in the Fade. For the weakest, it seems to be powerful enough to punch through the Fade whereas Desire and Pride seem to require a willing (if naïve) host.

Valor seemed to fine to just let people approach and show it the meaning of valor.

When Desire spirits possess, they seem to take on some traits of their hosts. Connor was particularly childish. The cat was rather composed and sly.

We've heard Anders' explanation of Justice.

What Wynne called "Faith" is possible a variation of Anders' Vengeance. Wynne's own faith might have changed the spirit in her.

I would not doubt that any spirit that possesses someone will take on traits of the host. (Like xenomorphs without the facehugger, mouth-stuff, explody chests and creepy no-eyes monster ... On second thought. Almost nothing like the xenomorphs.)

It's almost like spirits are incomplete.