79 réponses à ce sujet

[FaWa]

Maclimes wrote...

 I highly suspect that the game will not be purely Templar/Mage all the way through to the bitter end. My prediction for the flow of the game:

Prologue: You are the PC, welcome to the civil war, blah blah, here's your starting companions, etc.

Exploration Segment 1: Travel around to 3 or 4 major "hot spot" areas in the civil war in whatever order you want (a la DA:O), dealing with the issues and battles occuring there. During this segment, hints are dropped that there is another power at work. All other followers are recruited here.

Railed Segment 1: The PC discovers that the power behind the scenes (whether Tevinter, Par Vollen, Flemeth, or whatever) is secretly pitting both sides against each other for personal gain. PC realizes that if allowed to continue, the war will ensure that victory for the secret power is realized, by whittling down both groups. At least one side must still be powerful enough to stand against the secret power, or all is lost for Thedas.

Exploration Segment 2: Travel to more hot spots (a few perhaps dealing with the aftermath of Exploration Segment 1), this time trying to defintively end the conflict quickly and without furthering the goals of the secret power. (Perhaps by negotiating a truce, deception, or beating one side so quickly and thoroughly that the other is still strong enough to stand against secret power).

Railed Segment 2: Final conflict of civil war, whether negotion of truce/surrender or complete destruction of one side. Then the survivors can be made to defend themselves from the secret power, in a protracted final battle (a la the Battle of Denerim).

*AHEM*

Anyway, that's my thoughts. Basically, you pick a side to start with, but as the game progresses, you realize that the real enemy is outside the conflict, and then can either continue on one side or go neutral to defeat the main villain. That's the TLDR version.

I actually wouldn't mind this that much as long as choices are abundant. 

[Maclimes]

I know it's an overused trope (and has been slightly referenced in DA:O), but the idea of trying to stop two groups from fighting so that they can work together to stop the real villain is a fun one that has some real potential. And this is obviously the best place for it in the DA narrative. I highly expect that trope will see some traction in this game.

[Arokel]

Maclimes wrote...

I know it's an overused trope (and has been slightly referenced in DA:O), but the idea of trying to stop two groups from fighting so that they can work together to stop the real villain is a fun one that has some real potential. And this is obviously the best place for it in the DA narrative. I highly expect that trope will see some traction in this game.

While I agree with you that it is a fun idea it does tend to be a bit overused.  Sometimes its nice to have relatively grey sides that just slug it out.

[Maria Caliban]

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

[Arokel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

[Mr.House]

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

Retcons and choices made in one game no longer mattering.

[Arokel]

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

Retcons and choices made in one game no longer mattering.

What would you have them do.  Just create 2-5 presets and have us pick one?

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

I'm coming around to this conclusion as well, because it seems like the only result of the importing has been to eliminate what should be some really interesting story possibilities from front-page prominence.

I've been asking for a "plague on both your houses" option since before Origins came out.  Or, even better, the option to help only specific people within the faction and even pull them out of the faction itself as they come to see that your way is better.

This is even cooler when it's done in such a way that you find yourself liking specific characters, but you CAN'T convince THEM to come over to your side because of their principles.  This is a lot more heartbreaking than an imposed binary choice between two sets of marginally different jerks.

Think about it if you happened to really like, say, Sten, and over the course of some horrific fighting with the Qunari you manage to get something like 55% of the Qunari to come round to your position, and even Sten seems to be wavering on the issue . . . but he decides that it's his duty to go down with the ship even if he, personally, thinks otherwise.

[Wulfram]

Arokel wrote...

What would you have them do.  Just create 2-5 presets and have us pick one?

Pick the choices that make for the most interesting sequel, go with them.

[Maria Caliban]

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

It's a central part of Mass Effect because it's a single story with a single main character. There's no reason Dragon Age needs the same. I'd argue it's a superfluous part that places unnecessary restrictions on the storytelling.

Fallout and Buldar's Gate didn't need save importing. The Witcher has minimal save importing.

They should just do what they did at the beginning of KotOR 2 or Mass Effect 2 and have an in-game form or conversation to set important states they want to reference.

[Mr.House]

Arokel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

Retcons and choices made in one game no longer mattering.

What would you have them do.  Just create 2-5 presets and have us pick one?

Or how about putting stories in places we have never been to, with brand new stories and brand new characters.

[Arokel]

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

Retcons and choices made in one game no longer mattering.

What would you have them do.  Just create 2-5 presets and have us pick one?

Or how about putting stories in places we have never been to, with brand new stories and brand new characters.

To do that you would have to move continents.  The effects of DAO and DA2 have at least some sort of impact all of Thedas.

[Mr.House]

Arokel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

Retcons and choices made in one game no longer mattering.

What would you have them do.  Just create 2-5 presets and have us pick one?

Or how about putting stories in places we have never been to, with brand new stories and brand new characters.

To do that you would have to move continents.  The effects of DAO and DA2 have at least some sort of impact all of Thedas.

Thedas is a massive place with ALOT of areas to tell new stories.

[Arokel]

Mr.House wrote...
Thedas is a massive place with ALOT of areas to tell new stories. 

It is but I guess I just can't see how you could place it so that the impact of the previous games don't need to be more than "The Fifth Blight was defeated" or "The mages and templars are at war".

Seems like only a spinoff could work with so little.

Modifié par Arokel, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

Arokel wrote...

To do that you would have to move continents.  The effects of DAO and DA2 have at least some sort of impact all of Thedas.

The impact of DA:O is 'Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.' The solution would be to have a canon where Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.

The impact of DA II is 'The Templars and the Mages are at war.' The solution would be to have a canon where the Templars and Circles are at war.

You don't need save importing for any of that. Ferelden is a backwater country. No one cares whether it has a king or queen. Hawke repels a qunari invasion of Kirkwall. No one cares if the qunari get their book or not.

[Arokel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

To do that you would have to move continents.  The effects of DAO and DA2 have at least some sort of impact all of Thedas.

The impact of DA:O is 'Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.' The solution would be to have a canon where Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.

The impact of DA II is 'The Templars and the Mages are at war.' The solution would be to have a canon where the Templars and Circles are at war.

You don't need save importing for any of that. Ferelden is a backwater country. No one cares whether it has a king or queen. Hawke repels a qunari invasion of Kirkwall. No one cares if the qunari get their book or not.

The problem is not with save transfers.  It is with the choices themselves.  The problems with the DAO and DAA retcons could have been avoided with more forethought.

[Emzamination]

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

the problem with a complete anarchy path is that they have to somehow make it work into the next game's story line.

Only if they continue to import saves, which I see as a mistake.

Why wouldn't you import saves?  That is a central part of both ME and DA.

Retcons and choices made in one game no longer mattering.

What would you have them do.  Just create 2-5 presets and have us pick one?

Or how about putting stories in places we have never been to, with brand new stories and brand new characters.

In short -- Make a generic rpg. Boring...

[Wulfram]

Arokel wrote...

The problem is not with save transfers.  It is with the choices themselves.  The problems with the DAO and DAA retcons could have been avoided with more forethought.

They'd have been worse games if there'd been that forethought.  Because they'd have removed the choices that helped make the games so good.

Like they did in DA2

[Arokel]

Wulfram wrote...

Arokel wrote...

The problem is not with save transfers.  It is with the choices themselves.  The problems with the DAO and DAA retcons could have been avoided with more forethought.

They'd have been worse games if there'd been that forethought.  Because they'd have removed the choices that helped make the games so good.

Like they did in DA2

I don't think that not allowing you to kill those companions who came back would have lessened the game.  Lelianna could  have just left rather than attacked, Anders did not need to be killed during the epilogue of Awakening, and the Zevran situation is a bug so w/e.

[Maria Caliban]

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

To do that you would have to move continents.  The effects of DAO and DA2 have at least some sort of impact all of Thedas.

The impact of DA:O is 'Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.' The solution would be to have a canon where Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.

The impact of DA II is 'The Templars and the Mages are at war.' The solution would be to have a canon where the Templars and Circles are at war.

You don't need save importing for any of that. Ferelden is a backwater country. No one cares whether it has a king or queen. Hawke repels a qunari invasion of Kirkwall. No one cares if the qunari get their book or not.

The problem is not with save transfers.  It is with the choices themselves.  The problems with the DAO and DAA retcons could have been avoided with more forethought.

You quoted my post yet this isn't a reply to what I've said.

[Iosev]

It's not hard to see the limits and difficulties that the save/import system has to deal with, but instead of scrapping it altogether and going back to doing what most other developers do (e.g., set a canon, jump several years, etc.), I personally hope that Bioware sticks with it, and continues to work on ways to refine it.

Some of the advantages that the import system offers is that it can create an opportunity to have recurring characters that can remember your personal protagonist's actions in the last game, and for many fans, it's what makes a Bioware game feel like you have a part in the experience. Ultimately, there are limits, but I personally value the benefits that the import system can potentially offer over the limits that it may have to impose.

But more on topic, I personally don't mind having to choose sides, because I enjoy exploring moral dilemmas, which I think lose some of their impact if you can be neutral, do your own thing, and so on.

Modifié par arcelonious, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Arokel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arokel wrote...

To do that you would have to move continents.  The effects of DAO and DA2 have at least some sort of impact all of Thedas.

The impact of DA:O is 'Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.' The solution would be to have a canon where Thedas isn't overwhelmed by the Blight.

The impact of DA II is 'The Templars and the Mages are at war.' The solution would be to have a canon where the Templars and Circles are at war.

You don't need save importing for any of that. Ferelden is a backwater country. No one cares whether it has a king or queen. Hawke repels a qunari invasion of Kirkwall. No one cares if the qunari get their book or not.

The problem is not with save transfers.  It is with the choices themselves.  The problems with the DAO and DAA retcons could have been avoided with more forethought.

You quoted my post yet this isn't a reply to what I've said.

oops 

[KingRoxas]

New Vegas:
Caesar's Legion/Robert House ftw.

DA3:
Manipulative/Magnificent Bastard... Do it.

Modifié par Kingroxas, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:58 .

[Wulfram]

Arokel wrote...

I don't think that not allowing you to kill those companions who came back would have lessened the game.  Lelianna could  have just left rather than attacked, Anders did not need to be killed during the epilogue of Awakening, and the Zevran situation is a bug so w/e.

If you're scrapping decisions that will cause problems for imports, then the first things you scrap will be the Dark Ritual and the Architect, as well as probably a bunch of the boons.

You can remove the choice to kill companions if you want.  Though really, I don't see there's much point to the import apart from stopping you from getting cameos from dead people.

[Arokel]

Wulfram wrote...

Arokel wrote...

I don't think that not allowing you to kill those companions who came back would have lessened the game.  Lelianna could  have just left rather than attacked, Anders did not need to be killed during the epilogue of Awakening, and the Zevran situation is a bug so w/e.

If you're scrapping decisions that will cause problems for imports, then the first things you scrap will be the Dark Ritual and the Architect, as well as probably a bunch of the boons.

You can remove the choice to kill companions if you want.  Though really, I don't see there's much point to the import apart from stopping you from getting cameos from dead people.

I suppose one solution to this whole issue would be to have something like the Mass Effect Genesis comic but much more in depth.