12 réponses à ce sujet

[throwmeaname]

Hi,

So my main team comp right now comprise of 3 range, and 1 tank build. The tank is Shield and Sword Hawke, while I have Anders, Varric and Bethany doing range damage. While I trek through the dungeon, I normally have Hawke as the pointman while everyone is on hold position. When I meet up with a mob, I get aggro by attacking them with my tank while the rest of the team are still far away around the corner. I then walk Hawke back to my team while they dish out the rest of the damage. This has been working out for me given that there are corners to fall back to.

But when it comes to a relatively open field, where there are no corners to break line of sight, I tend to have trouble. Anyone have tips when it comes to this terrain disadvantage? Also, I just recently got Fenris who is a melee based character. I thought adding an offtank would be an awesome alternative to my 1tank-3range composition, yet he prove to be more of a danger to my party than an actual benefit. Because of his devestating AoE moves, his Mighty Blow skill often leave my casters receiving a lot of damage which is hard to heal through. Is there any means of adding Fenris to an SnS Hawke build in Nightmare? 

Thanks

[SuicidalBaby]

behavior should be aggressive.
tactics should include cross party utility abilities with each character defending another.
tactics link in signature

Varric will be your main source of control; armistice, kickback, and miasmic flask on a stun immune hawke.
Anders has stonefist/glyph of paralysis/petrify
Beth has stonefist and petrify

have them help each other and not Hawke in a rotation so no 2 are dependent on each other.
Hawke can run a Taunt/Bellow spec to make things especially easy or just focus on being lead and grabbing initial threat by sight.

Keep shield defense off for the most part as it kills your mobility.

Fenris should be the only melee in any party if he is in it unless forced via personal quest.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[throwmeaname]

Just for clarification, Hawke takes a bulk of the enemy, and when stragglers comes to attack my range, they should be CC'd and dispatched quickly?

Also, is there no other alternative than the 1tank-3range composition? If that's the case, It seems pretty limiting in Nightmare difficulty.

Plus, do you have any tips when it comes to an open field terrain, ie, the terrain in the Serebas escort quest in the first year of Kirkwall. I remember having to resort to casual difficulty because of the overwhelming amount of reinforcements coming in. Normally I would take my team and retreat for LoS, but in this case I couldn't. Do I just have to rely on class-skill combo to dispatch the enemy quickly?

Thanks for the info! I'll look into all the threads in your signature when I get the chance.

[TBastian]

Other combinations are possible, it boils down to what skills you take.

Two mages, Hawke and Fenris actually works very well. Mage, rogue, Hawke and Fenris also works well. You'll want to manually control Fenris a lot of the time in combinations like these though (bottomline, Fenris can easily outshine your PC).

I tend to see battlefields as either manueverable or not. There are some areas (like the Hightown "guard headquarters") where you have little choice but to stand your ground and fight (pick a corner). I's not open ground, but there's very little room to manuever your party or run your tank around. At this point it all boils down to party DPS/utility (cross-class combos, good mix of AoE/aggro control, burst dps, etc. Check if your party member's skills complement each other )
A two-hander or a few well-placed AoEs can easily clear some of the packs in that Serebas escort quest, for example, which trivializes the encounter (a lot of the reinforcements are below normal mobs). In the Hightown area if you can kill the "guard captain" asap then the battle is a lot easier.

Modifié par TBastian, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:04 .

[throwmeaname]

Very insightful.

I suppose in Nightmare difficulty, cross class combos are a MUST, especially when normal ranked mobs have large amount of HP and auto attack doing marginal damage. I could see how Fenris would be very beneficial since his auto-attack can stagger a few mobs which are open to other Mage and Rogue skills. I'll try this comp again and see where it takes me.

It's weird how mentioned that reinforcements were critter rank. When I did the Sarebas escort quest, all the reinforcements are normal rank with large HP. It was a pretty ugly fight in Nightmare, especially with my composition.

In addition, do you think SnS Hawke, Fenris, Isabella, and a Mage composition would survive a Nightmare run? I could see this failing since I'm already having a hard time with SnS Hawke-Fenris-2mage comp. But since I don't have Isabella yet I can't really say anything for sure.

Modifié par throwmeaname, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:22 .

[TBastian]

I wouldn't say a must since there are builds that are simply too powerful even on nightmare, but they help tremendously. Haven't tried that comp, lacks aggro control imo. There should be a skill combination that could make it work though.

I do play nightmare, and having finished the quest several days ago I seem to remember a group or two of critter-level Qunari lance-throwers spawning at the forward end of the battlefield, after the melees spawns that appear at the base of the trail that leads to the cave. I was playing a mage so I brought Carver, and he  killed off the lancers as soon as they spawned.

Modifié par TBastian, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:11 .

[mr_afk]

I think suicidal is suggesting that you use threat management and 'tactics' (the programmable list of conditions that dictate what abilities your party uses) rather than just using the terrain/line of sight.
Threat management via tactics is a lot more reliable since it can automatically respond to the situation (e.g. if hawke loses threat and enemies start to attack weaker party members).

Basically, with suicidal's tactics (available in the link in his sig), varric will use armistice and goad to redirect enemies away from your companions and towards hawke, and the whole party will deal out a measure of crowd-control/knockback to protect each other.


I personally would also recommend moving away from the traditional 'tank' stereotype, and would use the combination of high dps and crowd control to front-load your offense instead (which actually results in you receiving less damage).

Hawke is capable of dealing the most damage (due to access to armour and more attributes/abilities), and dealing damage is one of the most effective ways to generate and keep threat - thus with hawke as the prime damage-dealer you will be able to 'tank' the bulk of the enemies, even on an open field.

In the event that an enemy starts to attack the other party members, hawke can usually attract its attention by either attacking it or using taunt etc. In any case, varric's threat management is there as backup.

In this way, your party will automatically position itself optimally on any 'battlefield', with hawke at the front (holding all the threat) and the rest of the party behind, dealing ranged dps, crowd-control, and setting up CCCs.


Any party can work on nightmare, but having 3 ranged party members (anders, bethany/merrill, varric) is almost always the most optimum.
There are various reasons for this (mages having the best buffs, crowd control, and aoe damage; varric/sebastian having good threat management and single target dps; ranged characters not needing to close in on enemies, which increases dps and are allows CCCs to be setup and dealt more efficiently..) but just take my word for it (and the results from various speed run threads).

The most effective strategy for a S&S hawke would be to attract lots of threat with hawke (so all the enemies get clustered around him/her), disorient the group of enemies with fatiguing fog, then use assault and scatter CCCs to make them all explode.
This usually requires a somewhat dps-hawke build to be effective (I personally prefer a crit-reaver).
The other part to the strategy is get some stagger CCCs (chain lightning, crushing prison) happening by shieldbashing/pommel striking elites, or just as a byproduct of cleave.
Your two mages should also be providing (dual) haste, heroic aura, and using petrify/winter's grasp to crowd control and Brittle elite enemies.
Brittled enemies can be hit with an archer's lance CCC if you're willing to risk the friendly-fire.


If you're prepared to have a slightly less optimum party, you can get by with almost anything (e.g. my all-melee party). The main problem becomes friendly-fire, since warrior melee abilities will quickly decimate your own party if you're not careful. Avoiding friendly-fire with multiple melee party members forces warriors into an auto-attacking/buffer role (which isn;t very exciting tbh).

Since auto-attacking and buffing etc isn't going to be very exciting for a S&S hawke, I wouldn't recommend going for a Fenris & Isabella combination; Although i suppose I could make it work for you if you want (using a mix of my all-melee setup)...

Hawke: Dps tank using self buffs (cleave, might, sacrificial frenzy, bravery), Disorient CCC (Scatter/Assault), Stagger setup (shield bash, pommel strike)


Fenris: Buffer (via Rally), off-tank (Battle synergy), autoattacker with self buffs (cleave, might, lyrium ghost), mild crowd control/stagger setup (pommel strike)

1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Might
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lyrium Ghost
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher: Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Jump to: 8
6. Enemy: Target is Elite or higher - Pommel Strike
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Rally
8. Ally: Mana or stamina <10% - Rally
9. Enemy: Target at short range - Cleave
10. Self: Any - Activate Battle Synergy
11. Self: Mana or stamina <25% - Bolster
12. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Attack
13. Enemy: Target of Isabela - Attack
14. Enemy: At least one enemy is alive - Skip tactics
15. Self: Any - Deactivate: Battle Synergy


Isabela: Single target dps against staggered enemies (lacerate), spike damage against staggered elites (explosive strike, twin fangs), CCC setup (fatiguing fog), aoe crowd control (all-hands on deck), threat management (goad, armistice)

1. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
2. Self: Any - Activate: Precision (change to Speed once her crit chance is high enough)
3. Self: Any - Activate: Lacerate
4. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
5. Enemy: STAGGERED - Explosive Strike
6. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
7. Enemy: STAGGERED - Twin Fangs
8. Enemy: Clustered with at least four enemies - Fatiguing Fog
9. Enemy: Clustered with at least four enemies - All Hands on Deck
10. Enemy: STAGGERED - Attack
11. Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Rush
12. Self: surrounded by at least three enemies - Rush
13 Self: Being attacked by a melee attack - Armistice
14. Self: Being attacked by a melee or ranged attack - Use current condition for next tactic
15. Hawke: Any - Goad (upgrade to Corral for archers)
16. Enemy: Attacking Fenris - Attack
17. Enemy: Target of Fenris - Attack
18. Enemy: Attacking Aveline - Attack


Anders: Buffer (haste, heroic aura), permahaste (via vengeance, martyr), aoe damage (tempest), disorient and stagger CCC (spirit bolt, stone fist, chain lightning, crushing prison), CCC setup (petrify, winter's grasp), healer (heal)

1. Self: Health <50% - Deactivate:Vengeance
2. Self: Health <50% - Use:Health Potion
3. Self: Mana <10% - Use:Lyrium Potion
4. Self: Health <50% - Heal
5. Ally: Health <50% - Heal
6. Self: At least one enemy is alive - Haste
7. Self: Health >= 50% - Activate: Vengeance
8. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
9. Enemy: DISORIENTED - Stone Fist
10. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
11. Enemy: DISORIENTED - Spirit Bolt
12. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Winter's Grasp
13. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Use current condition for next tactic
14. Enemy: BRITTLE - Jump to: 17
15. Enemy: Target rank is Elite or higher - Petrify
16. Enemy: Clustered with at least three enemies - Tempest
17. Enemy: Target at short range - Stone Fist
18. Enemy: Attacking Isabela - Stone Fist
19. Self: Health >= 75% - Martyr

(tactics probably not optimised)


TL;DR - Use threat modifying abilities and tactics rather than positioning since it will work for any scenario. Almost any party can work, but friendly-fire and ability synergies will dictate what is possible. There's no need for a stereotypical low-dmg, high-health tank - high dmg is preferable.

I'll see if I find a vid of that qunari fight.

Modifié par mr_afk, 02 octobre 2012 - 04:37 .

[mr_afk]

Found it! http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rZrCqIeqbL8

It's pre-patch, so the strategies I used were a little bit different, but hopefully it shows the general benefit of frontloading damage.

Modifié par mr_afk, 02 octobre 2012 - 04:15 .

[throwmeaname]

Oh wow, that's amazing.

I don't know how to optimize my tactic for any of my characters, but I guess I have to read up and apply. I knew tactics was a big part of the game, but I didn't know it can have this much of an effect. And btw, how did SnS Hawke decimate everyone with a single scatter? Is it because of the double buff?

Thanks for the input everyone.

edit: so I ran through a crash course on the basics of tactics so I got a good idea on how to set it up. Using your example, and reading upon yours and Suicidal's thread, what does CCC mean? Also, what does "use current condition for next tactic mean?" How do you use it? Jumping to last is easy to understand, I just can't contextualize your example, probably because I'm inept lol

Again, thank you!

edit,edit: trying to contextualize "use current condition for next tactic" is basically used for when you want more than one condition for a specific ability. Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm still a noob at this but, if I want to use mind blast below 25% being attacked by melee attackers, it would look like this.

1:Self: health <25%: use current condition for next tactic
2:Self: Being attacked by a melee attack: use current condition for next tactic
3:Self Surrounded by at least 2 enemies: cast Mind Blast

Modifié par throwmeaname, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:33 .

[mr_afk]

The reason why my hawke dealt so much damage was mainly because of elemental weaknesses, although having pure strength and a significant amount of damage modifiers going on helps.
Qunari are weak to nature damage (and cold), so using desdemona's blade (from black emporium) allows you to deal double damage do them.

CCC refers to 'cross class combos'
it's a new system they added in DA2
Basically each class can set up a certain status, namely stagger (for warriors), brittle (for mages), disoriented (for rogues). These statuses covey certain attack/defence penalties to the enemies but wear off pretty fast.
Certain abilities can take advantage of statuses from another class to deal extra damage; i.e. 'cross-class' combo.

In the situation I was describing, an upgraded assault and scatter will deal additional damage to disoriented enemies (enough to generally one-shot almost any normal enemy and deal a significant amount of damage to any elite, even without elemental weaknesses).

I can show you an example if you've played the game before and don't mind spoilers.


The 'use current condition for the next tactic' is basically a way to link two conditions together. Think 'AND'.
Generally, we like to make certain abilities only trigger against elite enemies and only when they are staggered/brittled/disoriented (so we don't waste it on some critter).
This means we can go:
"Is the enemy elite? 'AND' Is the enemy disoriented?" - if both conditions are met, use an assault on them

Unfortunately, you can only link two conditions together; So you wouldn't be able to link three things like in your example. However, been surrounded by enemies means that they'll be in melee range, which makes your second tactics unnecessary - so you can simply go:
1:Self: health <25%: use current condition for next tactic
3:Self Surrounded by at least 2 enemies: cast Mind Blast

I wouldn't actually use such a tactic though, since it's probably best to not wait till you're almost dead before starting to defend yourself - so simply leaving it by itself will probably work fine
1:Self Surrounded by at least 2 enemies: cast Mind Blast


The other thing to know about tactics is that they read down the list, so the order you put things is important.
It basically runs through the set of conditions until it some conditions are met, triggering an action.
After the action it begins from the top (but it'll pass it by during ability cooldowns)

Here's a pretty good resource if you can't find what you're looking for amongst the guides etc on these forums:
http://dragonage.wik...Dragon_Age_Wiki

It'll explain and list the CCCs if you still don't quite understand what they are

Modifié par mr_afk, 02 octobre 2012 - 07:05 .

[throwmeaname]

Yeah, I've read up on Suicidal's threads and researched a few bits too.

You know, after learning about this part of the game and customizing my characters, it makes me appreciate DA2 more.

Thanks again!

[SuicidalBaby]

LOL afk, how old of a post did you copy all those tactics from?  I know you didn't just write them.... at least I hope not.  Otherwise why have I taken the time to teach you? lul

Your unmentioned 'other' name remains true!

[mr_afk]

Haha I pulled them from my all melee guide - I managed to conscript relix28 into making them somewhat improved, but I may have ruined his hard work by attempting to incorporate a mage into the team.

I don't know, you know how me and tactics get along! :/