[quote]Children may be a rare occurrence, but I think it would be false to say that romantic relationships themselves are. When the topic was brought up, Ferelden's Circle had a few occurrences. The prequel comic had a pregnant Mage -- who Gregoir sadly beat, and is unfortunately canon -- while Wynne will talk of her own times of seeking the embrace of other Mages. And as we know, one of those culminated with Rhys. Then there's Anders, who talks about how the Mages in the Circle will secretly have relationships with one another and Jowan and Lily.[/quote]
I did not mean suggest romantic relationships were an extremely rare a occurrence. Simply, romantic relationships
that produce children are very rare, and allowing marriage will encourage significant Mage reproduction. Couples will wish to live together, share beds, and inevitably, they will have children. Someone has to pay for these children, and I don't believe the Chantry would when they don't have to. There is not enough to be gained.
[quote]Still, we saw the reverse. Connor went to a Demon to keep his father alive -- though Eamon was never in any danger of dying, but Connor didn't know that -- due to a lack of knowledge.[/quote]
And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't understand the relevance of this example. This has nothing to do with Circle Mage marriage.
[quote]Assuming I understand your stance correctly, you'd be fine if the Circle could have tiny villages nearby? So let's say that Calenhad Docks was a bit bigger then it is and there was a small village there, complete with fertile land. You'd be fine with the Mages getting married because then the family could support itself -- due to the fertile land providing a farm and the Mage being able to help just by crossing the river.[/quote]
No, another Tower, or similar building, must be built, and the Circle of Magi must finance it's construction and operation. The married Mages would continue to formally, and functionally, reside in the Circles of Magi. There is no great advantage to being married in this scenario. Another tower would also necessitate more oversight, but I'm certain the Chantry would gladly use this excuse to subsidize new Templars.
[quote]I can agree to that, sort of. But not every married couple is financially secure, so it still seems too restrictive.[/quote]
Financial security wouldn't be a concern for married Mages, as the Circle of Magi will provide for them.
[quote]Certainly, were the Circles able to find more means of gaining money for themselves it would possibly help them earn their rights, in an idealistic world.[/quote]
It's generally how capitalistic systems work.
[quote]The Resolutionists are not an outside group. They are part of the Circle, an offshoot of the Libertarian fraternity. In essence, they are Libertarians cranked up to 11.[/quote]
You identified the operative word-- the Resolutionists are an
offshoot of the Libertarians. They operate
outside of official fraternities, and they certainly operate outside the Circle's jurisdiction, thus their group is an outside force.
[quote]But she doesn't say "They are surely one of the reasons Kirkwall is as unstable as it is". She doesn't say anything to lead one to believe she isn't blaming the entire situation on them.[/quote]
She doesn't identify them as the sole cause, either. I think the absence of a complete judgement indicates Leliana intends to further her investigation.
[quote]To be fair, there's no indication that it wasn't a Templar that was sending the tomes out. We only find out later that it was Orsino, but prior to that there was nothing to suggest that the Letter from the Circle wasn't penned by a Templar's hands.[/quote]
Highly unlikely, you must admit. Why would a Templar do this? Even if he was sympathetic to the Circle, there is nothing to gain from supplying an apostate blood mage-- from facilitating the knowledge and use of blood magic. Really, why would a Templar be so interested in obtaining grisly feats of blood magic and necromancy, and so driven, as to aid an illegal mage under no supervision whatsoever? What would be a plausible motive?
Moreover, the sender referred to himself as a
"colleague" of the recipient. That phrasing is highly suspicious, as Templars do not study magic. Real collaboration is not possible. It is much more likely an Enchanter, a serious student and fellow practitioner of magic, would use the term.
[quote]One should note that the same sort of thing happened between Wilhelm and First Enchanter Arden, as the former was dabbling in demonology so he could understand better how to deal with demonic possession -- since the Chantry does not allow demonology, which is a foolish course.[/quote]
And should the Templars have gained knowledge of that unauthorized arrangement, they would have had sufficient evidence, I believe, to condemn the Ferelden Circle of Magi. It could be very difficult to prove the intent of the First Enchanter in that slippery situation.
[quote]She is unaware, as talking to her after Sebastian's Act II quest indicates. That said, the thinness of the Veil hurts Kirkwall more and more. It leads to more cases of Demons breaking through -- thus wreaking havoc on the city and causing more psychological/physical damage -- and more cases of Abominations.[/quote]
I understand the adverse effects of a thinning Veil. However, I heavily doubt a currently immeasurable and abstract concern would altogether prohibit a practical Circle annulment.
[quote]This is a problem that would surely concern her and she should take notice of. The Mages and Templars should go to the very bowels of the city to make the Veil as strong as it could possibly be -- which might require supervised blood magic, if Avernus is anything to go by.[/quote]
Were it an immediate threat, I would agree. However, the situation is not dire as it was in your Ferelden example, and there is not evidence enough to conclude demons will descend from the skies should Meredith annul the Circle of Magi-- eliminate a much more genuine threat to the City, and to the Templars.
The discovery of Coryphaeus, and his effect on Kirkwall, could perhaps provide solid evidence of a significant Veil tear, but I doubt a Pro-Mage Hawke would present that information to Meredith in hope of delaying her RoA. Confirmation of Chantry doctrine could warrant a tough crackdown on all the Circles of Magi.
[quote]I think upon finding out about the death squads and how there are legions of Mages and Templars that grouped together to oust not the Order itself, or free the Circle Mages, but rather oust Meredith and her like-minded cronies... well... I'd say that's grounds for dismissal.[/quote]
Death squads?
And a secret group of sympathetic Templars and unhappy Mages is not condemnation enough, I don't believe, and certainly not when such sympathies result in the death of the Rebel organizer. Ser Thrask was murdered during their biggest rally, and funnily, his death is the blame of a crazy Circle blood mage. That strengthens Meredith's legitimacy and reinforces her strict policies, I think.
Additionally, this is another high profile incident involving the Champion of Kirkwall-- A beloved of his was kidnapped and held captive by blood mage conspirators and their associates. Easily, Meredith could capitalize on this situation.
"Does their influence, does their corruption know no bounds? Even the Champion is not safe from them. We must stay vigilant!"[quote][...] and are actively murdering/oppressing the populus for very minor things, you are in fact wrong to request an RoA.[/quote]
Murdering and oppressing the populous?
[quote]How so? It already helps those supporting the Mages by virtue of Asunder's portrayal of Justinia V. All this does is reinforce her character. It wouldn't do anything to cater to them. Perhaps add in for a pro-Templar Hawke a missive from someone not on the side of Justinia V that talks of how the Divine is foolish and blah blah blah, while also having Hawke receive the missive from Leliana sans the secret segment only given to a pro-mage Hawke?[/quote]
Perhaps my Hawke had no intent of sabotaging the Chantry, and perhaps my Hawke does not think Justinia foolish.
[quote]I hope to be proven wrong.[/quote]
I think our debate is a testament to the strength of the writing in Dragon Age II.
[quote]I don't think they're as tied as you make them out to be, but I won't say it's something that's easy either.[/quote]
Then let's continue.
[quote]This is true. I've often argued that the Chantry's preaching of "The Maker will return to us if we sing from the four corners of the land!" is just a ruse for the accumulation of political clout all over the world. So fair point. Maybe it would cause a major rift if not delicately -- extremely so -- handled.[/quote]
Absolutely, the Chantry has an obvious ulterior motive, and denying the long-standing goal of the organization would destroy Justinia's rule-- she'll swiftly be ousted or assassinated.
[quote]I wouldn't say she became the Viscountess of Kirkwall, as that implies it was officially recognized. It wasn't. It was an unofficial consolidation of power, but one should know that you cannot devote enough time, energy, and manpower to watching over the Circle's thousands of Mages, the city's denizens, and the politics of the city. That's going to take away from how she does her job.[/quote]
I would say it's unofficially official. Who is going to remove Meredith from power? It's clear she has no intention of giving it up, and she has a small army at her command to retain control should someone challenge her. Seneschal Bran, at the beginning of Act 3 in the Viscount's Keep, very clearly explains the situation, I believe.
[quote]She is considered unpopular. Perhaps not by the Order in Kirkwall -- as they are comprised of more Alriks and Karrases then Thrasks and Kerans -- but certainly by the people of Kirkwall, saying that the only reason the Templars fought was to preserve their own position in the city and not to do anything truly noble.[/quote]
The people of Kirkwall?
[quote]I wouldn't say she's the model of excellence either. Not by what she's doing to the city. She's killing the citizens, oppressing the Mages, causing chaos to run rampant between the City and the Order, and keeps forestalling the process of electing a new Viscount.[/quote]
Professionally, in scope of accomplishment, yes, Meredith certainly is a model of excellence.
And killing citizens? Causing chaos? Oppressing Mages, perhaps, though I could argue she's simply stricter than most, and the outstanding events in Kirkwall give her sufficient reason to be.
[quote]She even says herself in the opening that she would hold the seat until someone came along to replace Dumar adequately. That is just a cover story, as by this time she's lost to the idol and incapable of seeing reason, but it makes known that she's presenting at least a front that says "I will not stay here forever, but for only so long as I am needed".[/quote]
I never expected her to give up the Viscount's chair. The agendum of the Kirkwall Templar Order was abundantly clear and established long ago.
[quote]I don't think even the most ardent supporters of consolidation of Chantry power between Church and State would support a Knight-Commander that's actively persecuting the people she's supposed to protect.[/quote]
Persecuting?
[quote]Actually, many do. The Mage Underground was comprised of not just Mages working with other Mages, but commoners and nobility alike assisting those Mages in getting far away from Kirkwall.[/quote]
The Mage Underground is not a threat to Meredith, as it's members don't openly challenge her. Their organization is secret, relatively small in number, and their hidden efforts for apostates won't loosen her grip on Kirkwall.
[quote]By Act 3, the nobility are going against her no matter what. They're giving shelter to Mages to protect an ideal -- heard in an offhand banter -- and are actively working to undermine her.[/quote]
Everyone? I doubt it. Meredith likely has
some support among the Noblity. Her letter to the DuPuis family indicates she's active in their circles, and she has always spent a great deal of time in Hightown as we can infer from the opening cutscene of Act 1. She has plenty opportunity to gain support from the Nobility-- over twenty years of visible council in the Viscount's Keep, and omniprecene in the neighboring Chantry. Over twenty years to propagandize, to make the strength of her position well-known.
And, I believe, the nobles are entirely too self-interested to truly unite in defiance. Act 3 begins a year or two into Meredith's reign, I think, and they've yet to agree on a satisfactory nominee for Viscount. This indicates they're struggling amongst themselves, that no one has the necessary, the
particular support, to challenge Meredith, not that they're hell bent on up-holding some lofty ideal.
[quote]Those that support her in Act 3 are either the easily cowed or the lemmings that follow a pro-Templar Hawke. She is, however, rapidly losing support. Especially since she's killing citizens of the city, noble and commoner alike. Sometimes even the children of families.[/quote]
Easily cowed? Lemmings? Those individuals can't simply be attracted to power? They can't simply have seen the truth of the situation? They couldn't have simply realized that no one has an army to match the Templars?
And where does she murder children?
[quote]Yes, the weak of will. The lemmings that follow Hawke's stance on the Mage-Templar issue, if he's Pro-Templar. And you can't say she had "an overwhelming majority of Chantry officials" in Kirkwall on her side, as that's simply not known.[/quote]
It's an inference based on Beatrix III's fifty year reign. The Divine had plenty of time to install agreeable individuals and cultivate a climate of high aspiration. Likely, their will is prevailing.
[quote]And Elthina did everything wrong. She erroneously believes that by supporting the Mages, she would be making a case for the freedom of the Circle when not even the majority of the Mages themselves want that.[/quote]
I think she understands that to often and openly wax sympathetic for the Mages would sharply increase her chances of being branded a Mage-Lover, and her message could then be easily distorted by the Templars.
[quote]She believes that she can control Meredith, when over the years she has given Meredith more and more leeway. When Meredith started to ignore what Elthina was saying, that was a clear moment where Elthina would've been in the right had she removed her from her position.[/quote]
I disagree, I think she knows she can't control Meredith, and that there just isn't much she can do outside of mediating dangerous situations involving the Templars, and she can only do that much because she is well-liked in in the City. If she wasn't, she couldn't even do that, as Meredith would have no cause to heed her.
And certainly, her authority does not extend so far as to prevent Meredith from recruiting more Templars, from hob-nobbing with the Nobility, or from keeping the Viscount's council. Essentially, she cannot prevent Meredith from accruing more power, from cementing her control, position, and stability in Kirkwall. She can't confine her to the Gallows, after all.
[quote]All she would've had to do is issue an order to Cullen to remove Meredith from power, as she's no longer fit to bear the ideals of the Order. That does not say that she supports the freedom of the Circle, Tevinter 2.0, or anything else that might be bad for the Chantry.[/quote]
Does she
truly have the power to remove Meredith? I would think the removal of a Knight-Commander would be a very significant topic of discussion. I can't imagine the Divine, and more importantly, Chantry politics, wouldn't have a say in that. Elthina would likely have to inform the Divine of her intent and reasoning via letter, and, I believe, the internal politics of the Chantry would ultimately dictate Justinia's advice.
And if she invokes the power of her position without consultation, can she expect such a decision to go unpunished? Without sufficient evidence to condemn Meredith, I can imagine the response from the Clergy,
"Meredith goes, and you're next, Elthina!" Publicly, the Chantry could spin the usual bandwagon excuses to oust her-- Elthina's too old, too senile to hold her position any longer, and interferes entirely too much in the sacred duties of a Templar, etc. The Grand Cleric may have popular support, but I doubt she has sufficient
particular support over Meredith within the Chantry.
And if removed, would Meredith appeal the decision? Would she claim unwarranted interference in her duties? Would she claim, as the Chantry could, Elithina's too old, too senile to truly understand the state of affairs in Kirkwall, to understand the necessity of her measures? Again, does she have the
particular support within the Chantry to overrule Elthina? Would she even respect the decision in the first place?
[quote]It actually supports the stance of the Chantry, from my mind. As the Grand Cleric holds authority over the Templars, if the Templar Commander of the Order's presence in Kirkwall begins to actually ignore the orders of her superior -- stemming to more then just the informal appeal process to the Divine -- then that's grounds to get rid of her.[/quote]
I think Elthina's true authority over the Templars is weaker than you believe. She has authority on paper, but the Order is the organization with the army, after all, and that army is commanded by Meredith. Elthina's control, and even the Divine's control, over the Templars is tenuous, at best. Push too hard and the Order will split from the Chantry on an accelerated time table.
[quote]She could cite any number of reasons for why she did so, saying much what I said Justinia V could've said as a cover story -- that she's not opposed to a consolidation of power, but was opposed to Meredith being the one to run the show when Meredith was not acting in the interests of the Chantry anymore.[/quote]
I'd argue Meredith is acting in the interest of the true Chantry, the majority, and that they would take great offense to her removal. Meredith is too important to remove, too important to rile even.
[quote]She could say that Meredith was beginning to show signs of having ingested too much lyrium, and that she could not remain a Templar for any longer.[/quote]
Again, I think she'd have to prove her completely incapable of ruling. Meredith is critical to the Chantry's success in the City.
[quote]This would have Cullen appointed as Knight-Commander, and if he wanted unofficial Viscount of Kirkwall. Given his character, he'd probably refuse the position. Still, this would lead to Meredith being ousted and then Elthina, Cullen, and Orsino could start to slowly reform the Circle and weed out Meredith's cronies that might seek to re-establish her as their Knight-Commander.[/quote]
Temporarily, Cullen could be installed. I doubt long term, however.
[quote]This, however, also needs to take into account the likely scenario of Meredith using the order Elthina would issue as grounds to call her "a thrall of maleficarum" and give a "mercy killing for her friend".[/quote]
Plausible. Killing Elthina might be taking it to far, however. Unless the stage is realistically and conveniently set for such an outcome, she'll likely be scrutinized. Elthina is too popular within the City to be disposed of in such a manner-- to be killed without question.
[quote]Still, had Elthina done more then what she did to try and bring order back to Kirkwall, that would've cast her in my favor. Having her support the Mages does not automatically mean one is supporting another Tevinter. It means she's supporting them being treated as people instead of beasts like Meredith was doing.[/quote]
I think her hands were tied, as well.
[quote]You'd be wrong on that front. She isn't respected any longer.[/quote]
You beat me to my edit, I see. I'd say Meredith is respected-- in the circles that matter.
[quote]The effects of lyrium have nothing to do with how much you ingest at one point, but how long you've been using it. Like I said, the effects of withdrawal and regular consumption lead to it.[/quote]
Requesting the RoA is not sufficient evidence of Lyrium corruption, however.
[quote]Knight-Captain Cullen. He rose to his position by Meredith's own orders, so that shows that she believes he is the only one suited for the task of assuming control over the Order when she is not fit for the role. He is from Ferelden, but has a standing earned amongst the Order by the decree of his superior officer. He knows the Champion of Kirkwall and is good friends with him/her, while also being a fair minded person towards the rest of the nobility. He's a fervent believer in the Chantry/Templar Order and the ideals it serves/embodies. He's an elite warrior, having been one of the few to withstand a tower full of Abominations and mind control by those same Abominations. He's strong willed, and is certainly confident. Knight-Captain Cullen is the perfect replacement for Meredith in regards to the mentality/disposition towards Chantry control of certain lands. I'd also argue that he could establish a relationship between Kirkwall and Ferelden.[/quote]
Cullen is not a native of Kirkwall. The Nobility will not allow an installed foreigner to rule them, and he has no substantial support from the Noble Houses to minimize such an obvious objection. Meredith
is a native of Kirkwall, and she held sufficient support among the Nobility, exclusively. Cullen is an unknown to the Nobility, and it will rapidly become apparent that he is no Meredith. He is not the force-to-be-reckoned-with that she is. His demeanor is completely different, and I don't think he could stand up to them, or manipulate their situation, as she did. Cullen simply isn't involved enough in the politics of the City to be capable of running it successfully, or for very long.
He may have handled much of the more mundane, daily administrative tasks of the Order under Meredith, but that doesn't qualify him to step in as Knight-Commander of
Kirkwall. Ferelden, or some other country perhaps, some place where Templar power is not so vital or politically significant, but I would argue he is definitely not suited for the position in
that City.
[quote]She's supposed to. She's supposed to have her subordinates as well as herself keep tabs on the Order. Considering that Orsino is a man who fights for the rights of his people, I find it hard to believe that she couldn't have possibly known about this. He would've brought the issue up -- loudly, more then likely -- and she should've certainly known about it then and instituted an investigation, if she cared to do her job. Like I said, tacit approval.[/quote]
I don't deny that it is her duty to supervise, and it's very likely Orsino made her aware of the unauthorized RoTs. Likely, she explained she did not permit them, and that she denied Alrick's proposal. Did she do more beyond that? She may have reprimanded Alrick, however, outside of that, it's likely she didn't. Really, it's no skin off her back. Until the issue grows completely out of hand, she isn't required to do much.
[quote]Her only superior is Elthina, and Elthina is oblivious to even things a simpleton could grasp.[/quote]
Simpleton? She can't remove Meredith without significant repercussion in some form.
[quote]In Act 2, it's possible to hear how she's been acting very strangely lately.[/quote]
Is it? From whom?
[quote]And we know that the lyrium idol takes possession of those it immediately comes into contact with -- save for Hawke, who is plot-protected and Sandal, who's an enigma wrapped inside of a mystery wrapped inside of a conundrum wrapped inside of a taco -- and is far more potent when broken then when it was intact. And we know that Bartrand sold it to her in a broken state. I am not judging her sanity based on her actions in Act 3, but by the actual lore regarding the lyrium idol.[/quote]
That's metagaming. The player isn't aware of her possession of the Idol until the very end of Act 3.
[quote]Not possible after Lambert broke his word and assaulted the Mages in their meeting, forcing them to flee and thus were unable to contact the Divine, who was in their favor.[/quote]
There would have been no word to break, had the Mages not pushed for that meeting. Had they listened to Arch-mage Wynne.
Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:52 .
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