[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...
I do not like such flippant remarks. We can have a discussion, or we can end now.[/quote]
It wasn't meant to be flippant. I apologize if it seemed such to you, but I do like to make some jokes now and again in serious discussions to keep it from spiraling from a discussion into a vehement argument consisting of insults. It's my nature.
[quote]You speak too broadly. I don't believe there is a mutual agreement between us as to what psychology
is and accomplishes. And I think there is a confusion between psychotherapy and general counseling. One is not the other. General counseling is fine. Psychotherapy and clinical examinations-- not presently.[/quote]
Agree to disagree, as that's about all it's going to come down to. I think psychotherapy
and general counseling would work in a setting like Thedas where the majority of Mages watch out for one another -- as the games show us -- and Thedas has already laid the groundwork for psychological progress.
[quote]You seem to subscribe to behaviorism. I don't. I subscribe to humanism.[/quote]
No, I would not say that. From my limited understanding of the two ideas, behaviorism believes that you can actually cure -- or at least alter -- the psychological disorders one might have due to the behaviors one exhibits and attempting to change those or the environment itself.
For cases like Quentin and Tarohne, I do not think they can be helped because they're not able to be helped. It's as simple as that. What I said is that they can be taken care of before they become a problem, because they would be seen as showing signs of being mentally unstable and the Circle would eliminate them before they pose a problem to society.
I do not think they can be helped. I think they would be displaying acts of their own nature that point to them being a possible threat to society and they would be A) made Tranquil or
sent to the Aeonar.
I would say that's more a humanistic mindset. Again though, I have a limited understanding of the two concepts.
But for cases like Connor, whose acts are directly influenced by his environment and his upbringing, I think that
can be helped. By counseling and the like as well as education. To counsel him and try and change his behavior as well as changing his environment that might be playing a part in his inability to cope with certain things might serve him well.
I'd even say that behaviorism and humanism aren't always mutually exclusive. For Connor, it seems to indicate that. His behavior was influenced by his human nature as a child that cared deeply for his family.
Of course, as I don't know these two concepts fully I could just be talking out of my ass. If not however, I'd like to say I'm six of one and half a dozen of the other. I'm a humanist and a behaviorist, depending on the circumstances.
[quote]I think behavior is more than mechanical or so directed, and generally aimed toward tension-reduction and survival. I believe there is choice in each freely made and informed individual action. I don't subscribe to a
"breaking point" or that individuals are so greatly affected by their environment. Quentin
chose to murder women to resurrect his dead wife. Huon
chose to murder his wife for racial supremacy. Tarohne
chose plant demons in Templars. Their bunch
chose to commit those awful acts.[/quote]
And we've seen people in our own world who have been influenced by their environments to the point that they do, in fact, reach their breaking point.
Look at soldiers. Coming home from war, some of them do snap because of the things they've done and witnessed. It's PTSD. Trauma can warp a person's mentality at times so that they're not acting logically and aren't choosing to do something anymore.
They are doing it because they've reached the breaking point.
I think to say "These guys chose to do what they did" while ignoring what they went through -- or in the case of Tarohne, was either born a psychopath or snapped on her own -- actually begins to say that everyone is always in charge of their mental faculties and that the environment they're a part of never plays a part in how they handle situations.
[quote]The majority of Mages who are taken to the Circle and lose touch with or lose their families altogether choose otherwise. Their group should be held responsible for their actions; They should not be excused nor should their actions be blamed on anyone other than themselves. And I don't understand Connor's inclusion in this. He was uninformed.[/quote]
The Mages can also only get in contact with them if they have sufficient ties to rich families -- Hawke, Enchanter Ilana, implied with Finn, Emile de Launcet -- and the majority don't suffer through such traumatizing things as the loss of loved ones in front of their eyes.
Other Mages however are witness to such events or end up having their families resigned to being nothing more then a name in a file, and not everyone is mentally equipped to handle such things. Doubly so if that is the least of the things they have to endure.
Connor being uninformed factors into this because I'm led to believe that his magic was a recent development, due to the idea that if it had manifested a year or two prior to the Blight Isolde could've found other Mages to tutor him at any time. Jowan's testimony on the matter supports this, saying he had "started to show signs".
And the very fact that Loghain sent her Jowan, who was a recent escapee points to Connor's magic having recently developed. Since Jowan was sent to poison Eamon -- and we don't know how much Jowan was actually able to teach Connor before being caught -- this factors into why Connor is involved.
The environment itself factors into the things Connor chose to do. How much was he taught? Was Jowan caught before he could delve into the serious things? And so on and so forth.
To say he was uninformed doesn't change much. Had he been sent to the Circle, he might not have been taught anything that Jowan didn't teach him. Never mind how he would've been subject to the Uldred Uprising where Abominations and Demons stalked the halls.
And even had he lived, he no doubt would've been traumatized by such an incident. Or he would be possessed.
I can't really agree to the notion of "He should've been sent to the Circle" because that would've ended in him being possessed, killed, or traumatized anyway due to Uldred. Redcliffe's villagers and remaining knights would be alive, but Eamon still would've been poisoned because Loghain would've still sought to incapacitate him.
And had Connor lived through the incident at the Circle, he no doubt would've still gone to a Demon to save his father in some form or another after hearing of it. In fact, I'd conjecture that the events we see regarding Redcliffe would've happened in the Circle first and then led to Redcliffe.
Possessed Corpses would overrun what was left of the Templars -- who are small in number and injured, while the majority of the Circle has been killed -- and Connor the Abomination would escape, and Redcliffe would be sacked by walking corpses.
This goes back to what I said up above. The environment itself
can shape -- but doesn't
always shape -- what we do. And sending Connor to the Circle would not have changed much.
What I'm interested in is how much Jowan taught Connor. Was it only a little bit because he was caught poisoning Arl Eamon and thus unable to teach his pupil more then some basic things to control magic? Or was it only a little bit because Jowan failed to actually teach the most important Mage lessons first? That Demons aren't to be trusted.
Or was it only a little bit because, due to him being an apprentice at the time of his escape, he was not taught about Demons?
The first two are more likely then the last, but the last cannot be
entirely thrown out. It is, however, highly unlikely to be the case because Jowan does know about the Veil, Demons being able to create the corpses, and whatnot.
So to sum up: Connor being ill informed on how to handle his magic is a factor, but taking into account how his magic was a recent development and the events of the Circle in the game, psychologically he was bound to witness one traumatic incident or another.
The Circle or his father dying before his eyes. And ultimately I think the possession would've happened even had he been sent to the Circle because of his father's importance in his life.
And I am not excusing the actions of Quentin or Tarohne. In fact, I am not saying they did not commit crimes. They did, and anyone that does things they did should be punished.
But what I'm arguing is that the Circles have a method of weeding people of those mindsets out of the group
before they actually do any harm.
That is not excusing their actions. That is saying that before they become a problem to society, the system should be equipped to snip it in the bud, as it were.
[quote]In what form of testing-- Objective or subjective? Who will administer and analyze the results of said exams?[/quote]
Ideally objective. Who will administer them? In a system where the FE and KC are working together as they're supposed to, Mages selected by the Knight-Commander and Templars selected by the First Enchanter to form a (joint) tribunal. At the very least, anyway. But they would be bound by Chantry law to select people with a fair disposition. Mages like Wynne and Templars like Cullen, Keran, or Thrask.
That way, the FE can select the Templars with a fair disposition while the KC can do the same.
But, I would prefer the Seekers to select the Mages and Templars involved, as they are the Internal Affairs of the Templar Order -- but are still Templars of a sort themselves.
Maybe even the Seekers themselves would oversee it.
Who will analyze the results? The Seekers, perhaps. Or someone not affiliated with the Circle/Chantry at all. Perhaps an individual organization.
[quote]What method will be developed and used to detect psychological risk factors? What would be the identifying factors? What exactly is considered healthy behavior for a Mage or Templar?[/quote]
Questions. And not the same ones. They'd change from person to person, which would require an understanding of the person. Which is a Knight-Commander's job as well as a First Enchanter's.
Identifying factors? Responses that seem to be suspicious. If a Mage starts talking like Kelli did in Broken Circle, then that's suspicious. Saying she would welcome a sword of mercy through her is certainly worrying.
For Templars, responses that seem to point towards a heavily bigoted disposition like that of Alrik, Karras, and Meredith. Remarking that Mages need to be protected from their own stupidity, need to be heavily restricted in what they can do, should bow to the Templars and do what they want, etc.
Healthy behavior for a Mage would be someone like Wynne or Irving, who recognize that while magic is a good thing it carries with it certain risks and that ultimately it's a tool.
Healthy behavior for a Templar is someone who wants to work with the Mages to fight Demons, wants to live as peacefully as possible with the Mages, but recognizes that you have to be willing to do hard things on both sides of the fence when Mages go bad or Templars overstep their authority -- like Thrask and eventually Cullen.
[quote]
Where will these examinations be held?[/quote]
In the Circle somewhere.
[quote]
Under what conditions?[/quote]
Elaborate please on what you mean.
[quote]
Politics of the Circle and Order are likely to be unavoidable in such a high-stakes game. First Enchanter Irving demanded Lily's actions as an unwitting accomplice to a blood mage be more than reprimanded in the Magi Origin.[/quote]
I do not recall that. I recall Gregoir saying she should be sent to Aeonar for what she had done, and her saying after Jowan revealed himself to actually be a blood mage that she's willing to accept the Aeonar as her punishment.
But Irving never says anything along the lines of "Punish her more!" IIRC.
[quote]
Fighting over RoTs and firings will soon turn into a game of nasty one-upsmanship and strategic maneuvering. And the Seekers of Truth seem little better than the Templars on the subject of Mages. Mediators they are not. They're an arrogant group with their own agendum. And how would you ensure fair reviews are made by either faction?[/quote]
Ah, but under Gregoir's command the Templars
were subject to evaluations and were often reprimanded for saying/doing things that went against what the Order was supposed to do.
Templar Drass, for instance, was criticized heavily by Knight-Commander Gregoir for his remarks in front of the Templar recruits. They were only the latest in a series of events that disturbed the KC and his attendant that they were considering sending him elsewhere to personally evaluate his position in the Order -- something the Templar believes to have been code for a dead-end hunt for an apostate in the Bannorn.
Note: Templar Drass is the Templar under the control of the Desire Demon in Broken Circle.
And the Right of Tranquility, per Chantry law, can only be performed if the First Enchanter and Knight-Commander agree to it. Under my system, the (joint) tribunal would present the results on the Mages and Templars they deem risks to the Circle and populus to the FE.
The FE would then discuss the matter with the KC at length.
[quote] Thorough research and trial is a necessity.[/quote]
I will not try and say it needs no refinement. Everything does. I do not, however, think it is in such an infantile state as you believe.
[quote]And Thedas may subscribe to the basics psychoanalytic theory-- Mages are the prime prey of unconscious conflict-- They hope to never lose in a battle of wills to a demon. Their drives are often in conflict with laws and social rules in society. And the Circle daily internalizes this fight. It's certainly possible.[/quote]
Indeed.
[quote]No in-game theories have been identified[/quote]
Which should not be taken to mean they don't exist.
As I've said before, the absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence.
If DA3 and subsequent material shows that it is in a far more infantile state then I've been led to believe, then that is fine. Then I will concede the point.
[quote
And how did you judge that about Cullen, exactly? During Best Served Cold Cullen can state, "
These Templars are spoiled. If they had witnessed what I saw in Ferelden, they'd know to never trust a Mage.[/quote]
I've never heard that. Do you happen to have something to support that?
[quote]
He can agree with Hawke's recommendation to execute every surviving Mage at the rally commenting,
"I can see why the Knight-Commader thinks so highly of you." Cullen will also order his men to execute Samson as well for being so involved in the conspiracy.[/quote]
I've never heard these either.
I would, however, not take Cullen's statement for the Mage execution to mean he
agrees with it. Now it is you who is reading too much into the lines. He is saying he understands why the
Knight-Commander likes Hawke for his views.
That does not mean he agrees with it. It means he sees why the Knight-Commander likes/respects Hawke. Whether he agrees with it is, based on what you've just said, not made clear.
As for Samson, I've seen a
video where Cullen does not say anything of the sort -- and didn't on my one pro-Templar playthrough many moons ago -- and in fact is
supportive of Samson being reinstated, no matter which Hawke you're playing (pro-Mage or pro-Templar).
So where did you get the idea that Samson is desired to be executed?
[quote]Karras tells Thrask,
"I know you're soft on the robes." He then advocates the death of the believed blood mages saying,
"As if we would let these demon worshipers pollute the minds of our mages." Where is the difference between well-intentioned and over-zealous? What would be considered an extreme viewpoint for a Templar to hold or an extreme action to take?[/quote]
Given how Karras will
attack Hawke simply for Hawke saying that he's a friend of Thrask's, I'd say that constitutes over-zealous.
Along with Karras' comments later on of how "The robes will get what's coming to them" when he talks about Meredith appealing to the Divine for an RoA.
And Karras raping Mages like Alain and threatening them with Tranquility, as Alain states twice in-game.
[quote]
What?[/quote]
As I said, in either the Mage Origin or Witch Hunt -- I'm leaning more towards the former -- there is a children's book that downplays the threat Demons pose to Mages.
[quote]Yes, the Harrowing is designed to be difficult, and it greatly tests their knowledge and inner strength. Mages must defend themselves in the Fade in all accounts to be successful.[/quote]
I do not deny that. I don't think it's the only way though -- indeed, the Dalish way of training has worked well enough, despite the fact that Abominations still happen on rare occasions. And no one can say it's worse then the Circle system, as the Circle is not immune to Abominations either.
I'd say the Circle system has
caused more Abominations then it's prevented.
[quote]That is untrue. Wynne is a tier-one Spirit Healer. Finn from Witch Hunt is skilled in spirit healing and combat magic. Several Mages were sent to defend against the Blight and even more were at the ready, including the newly minted Mage protagonist.[/quote]
Again, controlling their magic. Controlling their magic is a broad notion, ranging from actual self-control to use in other aspects.
[quote]
The Mages learn much more than how to control magical impulses. And there is no advance training for the Harrowing, but that does not conclude Circle education does not teach about abominations, defense, and generally deter interaction with demons.[/quote]
Based upon my recollection of Jowan, I retract my statement about failure to teach the Mages about Demons. I still, however, maintain the notion that the Circle's method of teaching child Mages about them is a bit... silly.
[quote]
Why are you so insistent upon misrepresenting Leliana's words and intent? The Resolutionists are violent and extreme in their demonstrations against the Chantry and Templars-- so much so that the Divine is investigating the possibility of a full scale rebellion and contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall. It is not wrong to suggest their group is likely behind the unrest. And Leliana
does simply state they are likely part of the problem.
"The Resolutionists. I might have known they would be part of this." She does not blame them as you suggest she does.[/quote]
I am not "misrepresenting" her words and intent. I'm speaking regarding the facts of Kirkwall.
She believes they're behind the unrest in Kirkwall -- her exact words being "They are likely behind the unrest here". I said it's an understandable assumption, but that doesn't change how it's an ultimately wrong belief to hold because the Resolutionists
aren't behind the unrest in Kirkwall as Act 3 proves to us. It's an understandable thing to believe, but that does not make it accurate.
Yes, they are a part of the problem. I
neversaid otherwise. I've consistently maintained that they were
exacerbating the problems of Kirkwall by their actions, but they are not the root cause of it. Saying "likely behind the unrest" indicates that she believes them to be the root cause of Kirkwall's problems.
In fact, she solidifies this notion by saying that the Divine believes it as well and that the attack proves she's right in believing the Resolutionists are the likely masterminds behind the chaos in Kirkwall. Even though she's not blaming them completely and asserting it as fact, she and the Divine still
believe they are the likely cause of all the chaos.
They are not the ones behind the unrest. They are not the masterminds. They are part of the problem and are making things worse, but they are not the root cause of the problems in Kirkwall.
That is why it's inaccurate. It's not right, at any point. It's wrong, though an understandable thing to believe.
And for the record:
[quote]
Yes, it would be inaccurate to believe they're behind the unrest.
Is it understandable? Maybe, but that doesn't change how it's inaccurate to say they're "likely behind the unrest in Kirkwall". To say "they are likely part of the problem" would be an accurate suspicion and belief, as it would be true. But saying they're "likely behind the unrest" isn't accurate.[/quote]
Nowhere in there did I state she gives them complete blame. Earlier, yes. But I eventually retracted that.
[quote]Likely is not equivalent to
"They are the Main Cause." Please understand the difference.[/quote]
Please understand that saying "She believes" does not point to me saying she said they are definitely the main cause, but that she
thinks they are. There's a difference.
[quote]Death squads don't necessarily kill everyone in their path-- they are concerned with killing their targets. Ser Mitten and Ser Agatha are collaborating on the same assignment. They were both selected to eliminate the blood mages. They act with equal authority. Ser Agatha
and her Templars fight Ser Mettin and his men.[/quote]
Is there proof that Ser Agatha was picked by Meredith, or is this a conclusion you draw simply because they operate on the same assignment which isn't the same as the assignment a pro-Mage Hawke deals with?
You're assuming she's part of that death squad without anything to back it up, whereas we know for a fact that Ser Mettin and his cronies were. We do not know if Ser Agatha was, but given how the game says Meredith "hand-picked zealots" for the death squad and Agatha is a moderate, I'd say she
is not a part of the death squad, despite what you would like to believe.
And death squads are often used by totalitarian states, dictatorships, and the like. The one in game makes it a point to clarify that they are pursuing not just Mages, but people that sympathize with Mages as well. So yes, this death squad is killing the populus. Assisting a rogue Mage is not grounds for execution, per Chantry law. It's illegal, but it is not grounds for execution.
But it's not just people that are helping the Mages. It's people that
sympathize with them. I could say "Gee, the Mages have it bad" and probably get a sword through the gut because of Mettin and his louts.
[quote]The most you can conclude from the journal is that Meredith's death squad was authorized to eliminate
blood mages. You cannot determine her intent further.[/quote]
Mage-sympathizers. It
flat out states that they're ordered to "purge" Mage-sympathizers. I
can determine her intent further, because it tells us what they were ordered to do.
[quote]Cassandra shouldn't listen to the whole story to ensure Varric didn't fabricate the events of the Deep Roads to excuse Hawke from suspicion? She
must listen to the whole story. I'd be worried if she didn't. Cassandra an interrogator. She is simply doing her job in full.[/quote]
Perhaps, but the Chantry runs the asylum Bartrand is sent to -- if he was spared. So unless the records of it were in Kirkwall's Chantry -- likely -- there'd be records of Bartrand being there and clearly having lost his mind, which corroborates Varric's testimony on the matter.
At any rate, it's not pertinent to our discussion really, so apologies for bringing it up.
[quote]
How can Leliana prove this without evidence, exactly? The Resolutionists acted of their own volition. She can't secure testimony from the Templars or Mages without running a high chance of being caught, or of ultimately angering Meredith. Riling Meredith is something the Chantry-- the Divine-- would certainly want to avoid. Meredith has the army to control Kirkwall. Meredith has the respect within the Order. The Divine would be challenging Meredith's authority and undermining the long-standing goal of both organizations. Justinia would lose this battle.[/quote]
Eyewitness testimony, the presence of the death squads, the fact that the populus is
opposing Meredith, the informal appeal to the Divine which could be taken to mean she's ignoring the orders of the woman in Kirkwall with more authority then her, going to see Elthina herself for her thoughts on the situation.
[quote]
Bioware did not state this about Act 3. Bioware did not state that Leliana did not investigate sufficiently because they ran out of time-- Bioware has not at all stated Leliana did not sufficiently investigate the situation-- or that she did not do all she could within reason. You generalize their words to fit your subjective opinion.[/quote]
No, you are twisting my words so you can relate them to other portions of my post. However, I am also at fault -- more so, perhaps -- for failing to make clear a separation between what is related to what I'm saying and what is separate.
So, from now on if I say something that should be taken as separate from my part of a certain section, I will do this: ==========================================================
And I'll write below it.
Now, what I actually meant was that Bioware admitted that Act 3 was not "ideal" and that they were rushed to get it out the door. I did not state that Leliana's Faith quest was
directly affected by that -- though given how it was a DLC made along with the game during development, I would not rule that notion out entirely.
Had Bioware done a more ideal Act 3, Faith would've fit much better in the grand scheme of things. I did not say Faith was not written how Bioware wanted. I said Act 3 was not what they would call ideal because it was railroad-y due to them being rushed out the door, which as a side-effect hurt Faith IMO.
[quote]This does not invalidate there occurrences, however. And Leadra's death is a big boost for Templar legitimacy. Their rule is strengthened by the misfortune of the Champion of Kirkwall-- the City's most visible citizen.[/quote]
Technically, it's a misfortune only for the noble that was assisting with the Qunari conflict. Hawke wasn't Champion then, and had he been Champion then Leandra might not have died because he would've had pull with the Templars and nobles.
So to say "Not even the Champion is able to stay unaffected by them" is not accurate, because he wasn't Champion then.
[quote]
He couldn't protect his own mother from a solitary blood mage-- the City certainly cannot protect itself. That would be the message, and Meredith knows how to take advantage of good PR.[/quote]
And yet Quentin going as far as he did can be attributed back to the Templars failing to investigate Quentin -- something that Hawke should be able to counter her with.
Manipulating PR only works if it can't backfire in your face.
[quote]
Stop generalizing. I will end this discussion if you continue to do so. Do not misrepresent Bioware's words. They have not said any such thing about Best Served Cold. They have not said, it wasn't written as they wanted. I've watched the PAX panel you are referring to and Mike Laidlaw said,
"There was a mounting sense of inevitability in the storyline for DA, which ultimately with DA2 when you develop a framed narrative there is kind of an outcome that things are heading towards. And I think that given the chance to do it over again, I think that on the way through that kind of third part, the post Champion part, we would've had more variety and more reactivity to the choices you made along the way. So the end result is without that kind of wider variety that it ended up feeling kind of railroad-y. Ultimately, I think it just boils down to that wasn't ideal. Sorry about that." Nothing in that statement says Best Served Cold was not written as they originally intended. Hindsight is always twenty-twenty.[/quote]
I would take what Mike said and what David Gaider said -- Act 3 being not ideal, that they'd give it more reactivity, that they were rushed to get it out the door, and that they would like more sane mages -- as indicative of Best Served Cold not being written how they ideally wanted.
Certainly, I would think Harvestino factors into it as well, as that was an instance of gameplay trumping story, as David Gaider said in the past.
[quote]Less free because they live in an old slave prison. Less free because there are so many Templars. Less free because Meredith is stricter than most. Less free because the dangerous actions of apostates warrant tighter security.[/quote]
The third one: Meredith being stricter then most. That's what we're told in-game. We're told that Meredith and the Templars she's recruited over the years are less Mage-friendly. Since she took power, things that were normally flexible to the Templars under Knight-Commander Guylian have been taken to mean something that gives Mages less rights.
The number of Templars certainly factors into the third one, as Tobrius states that in Kirkwall -- the place he's been in his whole life as a Mage -- there are fewer and fewer Templars like Ser Maarevar Carver, a fair Templar who did his duty but was not opposed to helping Mages.
[quote]There are many reasons to cite as them being less free than Mages elsewhere. And Meredith elevates young Templars who show great zeal and reflect her values to high-ranking positions. Her chosen Templars are more visible. That does not mean Kirkwall has
"significantly less fair-minded Templars." I would like to know who makes that claim.[/quote]
Tobrius.
[quote]No, I believe using blood magic and consorting with demons is a conscious decision. The Templars never
force Mages to do those things. Mages
choose to do those things. That is a firm belief of mine.[/quote]
Ah, so if you're being abused and your mind breaks and you want to fight back against the people who can negate your magic, you're the one who's at fault if you turn to the only means that can actually work against them? If you're treated like a beast and you start to act like one because that's who you've become, you're at fault?
Sorry, but that logic doesn't fly with me.
If a Mage is abused, beaten, starved, raped, and tortured and they snap or want to fight back, they are not at fault. The Templars that did those things made that monster, and they're at fault.
[quote]The Templars do their job. They root out apostates-- Mages good-intentioned or not.
"The spawn are clear in their intent, but a mage is always an unknown. The Order dictates..." If Apostates are turning more and more to blood magic to defend against Kirkwall's strong and growing Templar Order, that is their own damnation. Not the damnation of the Templars-- it's their job to hunt apostates.[/quote]
Apostates are to be brought to the Circle, ideally. As we see in DAII, the Templars of Kirkwall -- save for the minority of fair ones -- operate on the premise of "strike first, sort it out later".
Along with the rampant abuse that goes on inside the Circle. Beatings, starvation, illegal RoTs being performed, Templars not being supervised like they should be, etc.
So is it any wonder that Mages don't want to be in Kirkwall's Circle? Frankly, I'd rather take my chances out in the world then in Kirkwall.
[quote]
Allow me to be clear. Irving was relating to Gregoir in a
position of leadership. Not academically. It would not make sense. The sender is critically addressing Quentin's r
esearch and academic notes and identifies himself as a colleague through that lens-- not by any other measurement. A Templar is not the colleague of a Mage in this instance.[/quote]
Agree to disagree.
That's basically what we've been doing for this entire tangent anyway. You need not agree with what I put forth as headcanon. That's the whole point of it. You can believe what you want, I can believe what I want.
[quote]No, he was
not resurrecting his wife.[/quote]
He was
trying to, in a demented way that obviously wasn't going to work. To
him, he
was resurrecting his wife.
That's my point. He wasn't actually doing it, but to him he was.
[quote]Creating Franenstein's Monster is
not a resurrection. And
you are missing the point. The nature of Quentin's research cannot be hidden in his notes-- It could not be hidden from Orsino.[/quote]
There is absolutely nothing to point to Orsino being all giddy about a ritual that's a one-way trip to damnation because it's irreversible.
The note mentions that "O" doubted Quentin's resolve, which points to him doing something that most people would give up on because it seemed impossible.
And what is impossible according to the lore? Or was, as Leliana and Wynne disprove it to the players
Resurrection.
His dialogue frickin' supports that was his goal. Yes, it failed. Yes, it was never going to work because it was being done in a demented fashion that had absolutely no link to bringing an actual soul back to life.
That doesn't change that it was his goal, that he believed he was succeeding, and that true resurrection was more then likely what Orsino believed he was researching. And then somewhere along the way, Orsino was sent some research on a Harvester that Quentin magically discovered.
And by magically, I mean arbitrarily, as it's never explained how a madman Mage discovers an irreversible method of creating a Flesh Golem that managed to defeat Dwarves, Golems, and a Magister of the Imperium.
[quote]That he used it... does not mean he failed to cast it aside-- No, that makes no sense. To cast it aside would be to not use it.[/quote]
He cast it aside up until that point, where he used it in an act of desperation or because he was driven insane by the fact that he and his charges would be slaughtered for a crime they had nothing to do with, that no one was standing with them, and possibly because Merrill -- an elf -- abandoned her people (other Elves/all of the Mages).
If he had used it sometime not long after acquiring it, then it'd be failure.
[quote]His extensive research into blood-magic and necromancy allowed him and Orsino to investigate the limits of the magics and investigate a theoretical transformation. It is likely Orsino had to perform the test trial himself, and he had only one shot at casting the ritual correctly.[/quote]
What?
It's an irreversible spell that consists of the transmutation of flesh and demonic possession. You can't perform a test trial. You can't come back from doing a test trial.
David Gaider said it's the same end result through different means, meaning that to create a Harvester it requires a crapton of
dead flesh and a Demon possessing said dead flesh.
So no, your explanation does not work. And it's never explained how Quentin is supposed to have figured out something that is irreversible and took down many Dwarves, some Golems, and a Magister of the Imperium. Along with other human Mages and soldiers if the various types of corpses and spectral figures are to be taken as any indication.
[quote]
I don't believe Meredith is
punishing the Mages.[/quote]
So death is a reward then? I'm sorry, but it is a punishment. And to her, she's completely justified as she eventually starts talking about how she's waited a long time for this and that the Circle will know fear afterwards.
[quote]She is flexing double authority and responsibility as Knight-Commander and as Viscountess. She has the Letter from the Circle[/quote]
No proof exists that it was ever given to her. The books on necromancy possibly because Aveline says they should be handed to them. The letter itself, no. The books and the letter are two separate things to acquire, and while definitely linked there is nothing to point to Meredith even
knowing about the letter/tomes.
If that is what you want your headcanon to be, then that's fine. But please do not state it as fact. Say she might have it or something along those lines, as I have done.
[quote]-- the circumstantial evidence to condemn to Circle to annulment, and now she can even further justify it through her duty as Viscountess-- her citizens will call for blood, maybe storm the Gallows because of Elthina's murder, and she can't turn her blade against the City. That is a legitimate line of reasoning. The story is not so simple or black-and-white in DA2.[/quote]
You don't coddle a mob. Never. That makes them grow bolder and weakens the authority you do have. And I refer you to my post earlier -- the one where I went "GAH!! Damnation!"
And yes, it is black and white in DAII.
[quote]But Orsino never did those things[/quote]
Actually, he does speak up for his charges. Many times.
[quote], and there is no indication he was ever going to do those things-- and his admission would certainly seal the fate of the Circle of Magi.[/quote]
Because Meredith's a loony by Act 3, certainly. She would've called for it had Orsino done that.
But then it'd damn her instead of him, as he's voluntarily handing himself over knowing what fate awaits him. That he's willing to submit to justice to keep his charges safe means that the Circle isn't as corrupt as Meredith would like to think -- especially if when he cast it aside, it was locked away someplace that only he could access.
[quote]You are free to assume within reason. There is no indication that Orsino and his Mages were not at the constant side of Meredith and her Templars in Hightown. There is no indication that Orsino was ever alone to search for Quentin. And Orsino could not commission a coalition of Mages to search for a blood mage in Hightown-- hunting illegal mages is the duty of a Templar. Highly suspicious behavior. Meredith is no fool. She would take notice and easily detect something fishy.[/quote]
I'm free to assume what I want. You cannot tell me what to assume in a game that I am playing. That's the equivalent of "You're playing this game wrong".
There is no indication that Orsino was always with Meredith.
And yes, I know hunting apostates is the duty of a Templar. Hence why I said he was out there secretly doing it. And yes, he could gather a secret group of Mages -- particularly if Bethany's in the Circle.
Bethany and Orsino are good friends in the Circle -- or at least respect each other greatly -- and exemplary Mages themselves. If he did go there with that purpose in mind -- like
my headcanon believes -- then he could've picked Mages that he could trust and could've lied to Meredith if she asked about where he was going.
Though given how you've said she doesn't handle Templar daily matters earlier in the thread, I don't see why you think she'd start doing her job here.
And based on your posts, I would think your headcanon for this particular thing -- were you to subscribe to aspects of my headcanon -- would be the following: Orsino went out there looking for Quentin in secret, lied to Meredith, didn't fool her, and that was part of why Meredith started cracking down on the Circle later on.
[quote]
Abominations. General interaction with demons. Mages with misleading or evil intent. That would make the Chantry nervous.[/quote]
So then pick which Mages can study demonology. Mages like Wynne, Irving, and Morrigan who are capable of resisting a Demon's attempts at possession. And have multiple Mages go into the Fade consciously in the same area -- though on a new trip to the Fade, that area would have changed.
There are only two types of Demons that can forcibly possess a Mage: Desire and Pride. And that's through mind control. All the others would require a willing agreement. And Mages like Wynne are not liable to be party to a lesser Demon's subtle manipulations.
Wynne, however, is not immune to being mind controlled into believing an illusion -- which if we were to look at the Sloth Demon's realm, has Desire Demons. Strange, considering how she's possessed by a Spirit of Faith that should have full reign over her mind in the Fade, if Justice/Vengeance is any indication.
[quote]
I never said blood magic was needed to enter the fade or to study demons. I said studying demons was a dangerous science the Chantry discourages, and rightly so-- it's too great of a threat to them.[/quote]
And Mages suffer for it, having no new knowledge to defend themselves from Demons with. As we see from Torpor's comments, the arcane is eternal in the Fade. Eventually, Demons will wise up.
[quote]
This is not Christianity. This is Andrasianism. And demons in this universe don't enjoy fabricating new desires, they prefer to nurture existing desires-- but that does not mean they won't forcibly control a worthwhile and talented Mage-- a prime ticket to the outside world of man. And Abominations don't need to cast magic--they can melee attack.[/quote]
Okay... you bring up Christianity why? I said that word of God stated that Demons prefer to subtly manipulate people, as I recall. And per the lore, Demons of Desire and Pride can resort to mind control, though they do not like to resort to it as their first measure -- they do it as a last resort, if anything.
I never said they do so regularly. They can however, as the lore on Desire Demons and Pride Demons clearly states. Allure in Sebastian's Act 2 quest says she could if she wanted to, but went the easier route of manipulating Lady Harrimann's desire for power.
Because a room full of Templars can't handle an Abomination that fights like a drunken brute? Their armor is specifically made to resist an Abomination's claws.
[quote]No, you do
not know that an annulment will cause the Veil to tear. You do not know the amount of blood and magic necessary to tear the Veil. You
think it will be a single annulment. The Veil in Kirkwall could survive two or three or more wars. It is unknown. You do not know that solely the Grey Warden eviction caused it to tear. And Avernus
summoned the largest number of demons in history to a bloodbath. He unwittingly served it to them-- no doubt a contributing factor in the tear. Had he not done so, the Veil may have remained intact.[/quote]
I said it will
thin the Veil even further. And it's true. The more death that occurs in any one place, the thinner the Veil gets.
This is talked about in
many places. The Bone Pit, the Circles, Kirkwall, Soldier's Peak, etc.
[quote]That was not my question. Is it stated in DA2 that the Mages and Templars do not detect the thinness of the Veil?[/quote]
No, but given how the game spans
seven years and we see nothing of Mages working to repair the Veil in its weakest parts, or Templars remarking on how it might be contributing to the Demons and Abominations present, or even a codex talking about the Veil being strengthened in the ensuing years by the Band of Three, I'd say they don't sense it period.
Supported by Elthina being unaware of the Veil being thin, because certainly if her Templars could sense it and the Mages could sense it, she'd be told that the Veil is thin and that they should work on fixing it.
[quote]
Please use concrete examples. And please prove those demons were not summoned by a Mage. I remember a Mage kneeling at the Statue of Hawke in Lowtown summoning demons, I remember a Mage summoning demons and becoming an abomination after being cornored by the Templars, and I remember a group of abominations being lead by a demon-- nothing to suggest that specific demon was not also summoned.[/quote]
Sundermount, during Merrill's Act 1, 2, and 3 quest.
The quest dealing with Hybris has powerful demons that were bound summoning more demons into possessed corpses.
The Bone Pit, where you can go on a few quests dealing with corpses.
The Hidden Thaig off of Sundermount in both Act 2 and 3.
Anders Act 2 quest in a passage from Kirkwall to the Gallows, with no Mages in sight.
And others still. The Veil is thin in the Bone Pit, Sundermount, Kirkwall, and possibly even the Wounded Coast itself.
All of these areas suffer from a thin Veil, made thinner by the amount of blood spilled in any area.
[quote]Larius writes that. Speculations on Kirkwall does not state that, however. I'll take both pieces of lore into account when formulating a theory on Corypheus.[/quote]
Larius states what an ancient Warden also said, as the thoughts the ancient Warden were thinking about were not his own but those of Corypheus' implanted in him.
And that ancient Warden killed himself after he penned his thoughts down to prevent Corypheus from using him further.
[quote]No, that would suggest it is a trick. I do not believe it exists to trick the player. It is there to provide a hint. It is there to contest Larius' journal. His statement is not written as absolute fact nor are contested codex entries ever designed to be such.[/quote]
Larius isn't the only one to state it. And why would Bioware not put it in there to trick us into believing it? Why do you believe they wouldn't do that? Not every codex is going to be right. Are all historians and scholars in our world right? Why would Thedas be any different?
Now, for the codex entry that tells us Corypheus influences beings that bear the Taint.
find myself drawn inexplicably to the principal seal. My waking moments are consumed by thoughts of it. I make excuses so that I might visit it. Then there are the journals of the Warden mage who created the seal using the artifact known as the key: What is the key? Can the seal be broken without it?
I have begun to suspect that these thoughts are not my own. Close scrutiny of my emotions and thoughts have led me to the frightening conclusion that this obsession was planted in me by the creature they call Corypheus. Corypheus wants me to learn about the seal and key so that he may pluck the knowledge from my mind. Corypheus wants to be free, and he will stop at nothing to achieve his goal.
—From the journal of Erasmus, a Grey Warden mage who, shortly after penning this entry in 1012 TE, threw himself off the highest level of the prison towerAdd into this the fact that if Corypheus could affect beings that weren't tainted, he'd have no reason to not try and control Malcolm Hawke when Malcolm had the Key in hand.
[quote]Corypheus and the Architect may share similarities, but Corypheus is
not the Architect, and Bioware is not confined to attributing only familiar characteristics to him. His powerful presence alone constantly weathers the magic holding him underground.[/quote]
It's never stated that Corypheus is the reason for why the seals weaken. In fact, Janeka states that the magic just weakens on its own.
[quote]
It is not unreasonable to suggest his presence could thin Veil near Kirkwall-- the closest City, and a thin Veil can greatly affect suggestible Mages. Demons will be more aware of them and be able to more easily exploit their weaknesses-- The avarice of the Tevinter Magisters. The rage of the leashed Saarebas. The despair of Circle Mages and Apostates.[/quote]
It is unreasonable to give it credence when Larius and the ancient Warden Mage Erasmus both state that Corypheus has an affect on beings that bear the Taint.
[quote]
See above. Because a codex disagrees with something you believe does not mean it does not have merit.[/quote]
But when a codex and a person disagree with it -- along with Janeka's realization that she was used -- I'm going to discount it.
3 vs. 1.
[quote]Those blood mages in particular were beaten-- that's why their family hid them from the Templars? There is no proof of that. There is no proof that is why they fled. There is no proof to suggest they were beat. You have no idea who those Tranquil were discussing.[/quote]
Why do you call them blood mages? They were simply Mages. It's never stated anywhere that the Mage being hidden by the woman Ser Mettin was about to kill was a blood mage.
And the Tranquil states that the Templars beat her. The Mage scared of the Templars tells us that she gets whipped and lashed by them.
So yes, I do have an idea of what the Tranquil and the Mages were discussing. Because they actually say the Templars do these things.
I'm sorry, but if I can hear beatings going on, hear about the Templars committing said beatings, and hear a woman whose cousin was beaten pleading for her life simply for giving... then I'm sure as hell going to think the Templars are abusing their charges.
I'm finding it hard to maintain this discussion with you, because you're tossing out anything that makes the Templars of Kirkwall seem like the douchebags they are.
Death squads? Oh they're not bad people, despite the game saying they're killing mage-sympathizers and were authorized by Meredith. Beatings? Nope, they aren't being done by the Templars, despite the game actually saying the Templars are doing it.
[quote]I said
likely-- not definitely, and it is understandable. It's probably private property. The City-Guard can obtain a search warrant whereas Meredith cannot.[/quote]
Thedas does not require search warrants. It is not the United States of America.
[quote]Hawke is not responsible for the inaction of the authorities.[/quote]
For his own inaction. Failing to convince Aveline that a place where Demons were summoned -- that she may have witnessed -- is a failing on his own part.
Failing to inform his mother of the fact that the White Lily Killer of Kirkwall uses... white lilies and kills women of noble lineage with few social ties to the area is a failing on his own part.
Failing to ask Aveline why she has to hear Gascard's testimony again before she launches the investigation again -- instead, waiting until Emeric is dead -- is a failing on his own part as well as a failure on Aveline's part for displaying idiocy.
I mean really, Hawke goes "Why can't you just tell the City Guard this?" and Aveline doesn't say "No need. I've heard it all". She just goes "Yeah.... can't you?".
The worst part is that Bioware wanted to make her a woman that kept Kirkwall safe -- in her codexes, it's said Kirkwall has been safer with her in charge.
And yet.... I don't see it in-game. I see a failure of a Guard-Captain who was desired by Bioware to be good at her job.
[quote]The camera awkwardly showed a man fleeing the scene, but that does not mean Hawke saw the murderer flee, or determine that he was able to get a good enough look at him to provide a sufficient description of a Mage.[/quote]
Hawke looks in the direction of the Mage, so we can assume he got a brief glimpse.
[quote]No one is going to act on that vague description, and no one is going to act on what Hawke thinks he saw. What can they even do? The most the Templars can do is be alert and search for illegal Mages in the area. The City-Guard has to continue the investigation.[/quote]
What, the Templars can't inform the populus that there's a rogue Mage out there who summoned demons and cut off a woman's limbs and for them to inform the City Guard or Templars of anyone acting suspicious?
The Templars can't send some of their men to help the City Guard with patrols?
The Templars could've done a lot. But they didn't, as Emeric tells us. And then the City Guard did nothing either.
[quote]Quentin could be a new apostate from Starkhaven or somewhere else for all they know. There is nothing to suggest he's been secretly hidden for an extended period of time in Kirkwall. Ninette's murder is the first time anyone pays attention to him. And Hawke didn't see his face. He only saw his back. How can he judge the suspect's age?[/quote]
Gray hair, balding.
It's not too much of a leap.
[quote]The Foundry is likely private property; It is likely the Templars cannot investigate it without a warrant-- and they can't obtain warrants to investigate something out of their jurisdiction. The continued investigation into the disappearance and murder of a mundane woman is not their concern. The City-Guard can obtain a search warrant and proceed with an investigation that falls under their jurisdiction.[/quote]
1) Thedas is not the US regarding search warrants. Thedas does not have a law requiring search warrants to investigate any place. If it did, Aveline wouldn't be able to investigate the DuPuis mansion a second time.
2) It's called an
Abandoned Foundry. It's not private property. It's a derelict foundry, abandoned with no official owner.
[quote]*And your consistent condemnation of Meredith concerns me. You do not at all consider the position she is in. You never consider her motives, her character, her beliefs, her strength, her values. You are not open to debate the merit in her thinking-- in her moves or the reasoning behind them. You repeatedly call her an idiot and condemn her as illfit for the job of Knight-Commander when she has been running the Templars in Kirkwall for over twenty years-- when she was Knight-Captain for years before that-- when she was selected to lead by those in power-- when she has consistenly manipulated the Viscount and Nobility.[/quote]
Kirkwall was fine under her predecessor. I've seen her run it straight into the ground since she's been Knight-Commander.
There are very few things she's done I'll defend. One being the Ellis Island type thing she did with the Gallows in the prologue.
But she should never have been politically involved. Ever.
[quote]You dismiss her every action as completely stupid, irrational, and paranoid when there is evidence to justify her--
those last two condemnations disturb me most of all. Would you be so quick to condemn a
male character copy of Meredith? Do you label her an irrational idiot illfit for a high ranking job and dimiss all agruments against that simply because she is a
woman? Are all women with the slightest hint of affectivity
"insane irrational incompetent idiots"? I would like you to respond to this because I take offense to your consistently and entirely negative characterization of her. And you do the same to Elthina. You call her an idiot without provocation. I am also deeply offended by that.[/quote]
And now I'm considering just dropping this conversation right now. That you would resort to implying I'm being a sexist pig offends me.
It has nothing to do with her being a woman. It has to do with my perception of her job as Knight-Commander. I find Anora to be a much more capable politician then Meredith.
[quote]You would certainly fume if I called Merril an irrational idiot illfit for the job as Dalish Keeper. If I called her a selfish and naive little knife-ear. A slave to a demon. An incompetent b*tch that gets her clan killed. If I said she should wake up and smell the fecees in Lowtown-- help the City Elves living in destiution all around her instead of stupidly making light of their level of poverty and crime. That she should get over herself and get a life; Stop living through Isabela; Stop fooling around with an evil mirror in her back bedroom; Stop being so stubbornly prideful as to believe her actions alone can change the fate of the Elvhen. You see, that was difficult to read wasn't it. I wish to engage in respectful discussion. Please treat Meredith with some respect. That is all I ask.[/quote]
I don't fume when people insult Merrill. Not initially.
[quote]
No, that is not true. You are using a different defintion of
"under her thumb". The Mages do not want to associate with Orsino because they know Meredith is watching him and this situation closely. That is a form of control. Indirect-- but it is control.[/quote]
Because they can't possibly ask him for indirect assistance, can they? They can't possibly send him a missive written in a cypher that asks them for assistance? Asking him to see if he can aid them -- preferably by getting the Champion to assist them -- without going to them himself, because since he's the First Enchanter it would attract too much attention were he to disappear for a few days? And to burn the missive when he's done reading it?
I'm sorry, but I do not buy into this "They couldn't ask Orsino for help" idea. They could've, quite easily.
[quote]He isn't worth trusting. Meredith will find out if he knows. She can press him for information if she thinks he's hiding it from her. It's better to keep that information guarded. He does not need to know. They don't want to get busted, and it keeps him clean and the Circle clean of total conspiracy. That could be the reasoning behind his exclusion. Orsino using Hawke to sneak around their clandestine gatherings could be trouble-- it could be Meredith exerting control over the situation.[/quote]
Orsino does not divulge information that would condemn the Circle to Meredith, no matter how much she tries to get it out of him. That you think him as weak as that speaks to how little you respect him.
[quote]I did not say she didn't know. I said it's likely she didn't until Orsino made her aware-- that was covered in a subsequent post-- as she had already denied Alrick's Tranquil Solution. And I did not say Orsino was "bad". His ignorance and silence would be unacceptable to Meredith. I explained it from her POV. If you need clarification, then state so.[/quote]
After posting that, I had watched a video of Meredith during Best Served Cold. Yes, it was from her PoV, and I apologize for implying you were saying Orsino was bad.
However, if Orsino was willing to bring a matter of Templar abuse to her attention -- especially if he was unsure if she had authorized it behind his back -- she should be willing to do the same for him concerning Mages and Templars sneaking out at night.
[quote]No, that is simply how you would like the game to unfold. It is not necessary to the personal narrative Bioware chose to write. This game was not about using political power to stop anyone or make things happen. It was a personal and fateful ascension. It was the journey of a simple man surving and thriving in incredible circumstance.[/quote]
It just didn't strike me as... credible.
[quote]You interpreted that to mean political office or heavy political pull. That does not mean it was ever meant to be. Hawke
did rise to power-- he rose from the Ferelden refuse to be one of the most influential citizens in Kirkwall-- In arguably one of the most powerful and important cities in all of Thedas. He became the Champion and held the attention of High-Ranking authorties. The Viscount. The Arishok. Meredith. Orsino. His support is impactful. He now has the Divine's attention. Her Seekers are searching for him.[/quote]
I actually think Bioware said we could build political alliances in DAII as we played. However, as my internet browser is acting really wonky I cannot find anything to back that belief up at the moment.
[quote]
"Several nobles" is not all nobles.[/quote]
But it is a lot. Possibly the majority.
[quote]You suggested Meredith inspired chaos in an eariler post. There is no chaos. No one is so discontent or so angered as to demonstrate against her. There is no real protest. If there was we would know about it.[/quote]
You keep using absence of evidence to justify your statements.
[quote]Are commoners fighting Templars in the streets? No. Are they all hell-bent on overthrowing the Order? No. The actions of commoners that disagree with Templar rule are too insignificant to matter. Their small group is not demonstrative in any real way to affect her.[/quote]
If you cannot accept that the absence of evidence does not mean the evidence doesn't exist, then there's little point in continuing this discussion.
[quote]I don't think he's spineless. There's just nothing he can do. A leader has to appease when bargining chips are few.[/quote]
I do not think he's entirely spineless personally. It's the opinion of someone working in the Viscount's Keep who thought Perrin Threnhold was a good man trying to make Kirkwall have solemn autonomy over itself. No Orlesians, Qunari, or even Templars could bully Kirkwall into doing what served their interests.
[quote]
If Meredith felt she could control Hawke, she may step down to silence demonstrative malcontents in the Nobility. I doubt she would allow a Pro-Mage Hawke to take over, however.[/quote]
Or even a Mage Hawke.
But a pro-Templar Hawke is shot down, even if a pro-Templar Hawke isn't a Mage at all.
[quote]But generally, Hawke has too much influence. I should say, he is too much of a force-to-be-reckoned-with to take a chance on. She would likely make up an excuse to remain in the Viscount's Chair. Protecting the City from blood magic-- something the Champion has failed to do twice over for his own family-- would likely be her choice reasoning.[/quote]
Which could easily be turned against her.
[quote]
I think Bioware would hint that Cullen could take over for Meredith. There are no hints. He interacts with Hawke and Aveline because they come to him. And there is no real demonstration that he understands he is a pawn in a polititcal game-- It could be that he trusts Meredith's judgement, and if Aveline is doing a bad job, the Knight-Commander will want her replaced by someone she trusts to do the job well. And if he is aware of City politics, it would be reasonable to believe them to be only in relation to the Templars and how it's good for them and the City. I don't see why a stern Templar like Cullen would care about the trade policy of the City-- or for example, some Orlessian noble's business move to gather resources from Dalish controlled Sundermount, or the mines filled with Dragons that could halt coal production
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:45 .
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