158 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

I have to agree with one point that's been raised: Hawke most certainly is at fault for being too passive.

One of the big examples I saw was at the beginning of Act 3 when Anders described the destruction of the Mage Railroad. What exactly had Hawke been doing all that time? Why wasn't he out in the alleyways every night slaughtering Templar patrols? Why had he failed to make the Templars' laws unenforceable?

Why is it that during Best Served Cold he simply lets Cullen make an arrest rather than taking the opportunity to put down another group of Loyalist Templars? Why does he fail to challenge Meredith directly until after she goes crazy?

Honestly, this was one of the problems with the game. It asked me a question about what was the right way of dealing with the conflict at hand and then refused to let me give my answer of 'kill all Templars'. I simply couldn't make Hawke as fanatical as I wanted to.

[TEWR]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

I don't  understand the rationale behind staking an argument on an unknown factor. And I don't have to accept an unsubstantiated argument.[/quote]

Wasn't the point of this discussing things the Circles should have in the future? This is all going to be brought down to what we believe works best for the Circles and should be done in the future. Or attempted to be done.




  [quote]
No, Behaviorism and Humanism are differentiated schools of thought.[/quote]

I never said they were the same. I said they might not be mutually exclusive, meaning that behaviorism and humanism might be able to work together and need not always be separate. That certain scenarios might require both schools of thought to address the situation.


  [quote]
No, PTSD is a clinical condition. It has its own characteristics. There is a medical standard in the evaluation of PTSD. "Snapping" under or because of stress is not PTSD. And the disorder itself does not directly affect a sufferer's reasoning ability, nor does it itself induce a change in behavior or mental attitude. A "breaking point" is however indicative of a general and conscious change in mental attitude. And someone with PTSD is not going to be convicted of a crime if it can be proven the disorder interfered with their ability to distinguish between a moral right and wrong. A diagnosis of PTSD is not a death sentence simply because the sufferer might do something.[/quote]

It's funny to see a poster that's pro-Templar arguing that simply saying a person might do something isn't grounds to punish them.

Granted, it'd be funnier if it were other posters that are pro-Templar that I've argued with before. It'd be ironic, really.

Note however, that I am not saying all people with PTSD are at risk of killing people. Only that it can indeed happen. Your belief was that people cannot reach a breaking point due to what environment they are in.

[quote]I don't subscribe to a "breaking point" or that individuals are so greatly affected by their environment.[/quote]

That isn't the case. It can indeed happen. People are indeed affected by their environment, and some people do reach a breaking point because of it. That you may not subscribe to it does not mean it isn't a psychologically accepted idea. It, in fact, is a psychologically accepted idea.

Additionally, I am not saying that anyone deemed mentally ill should be killed or made Tranquil. That'd be reserved for the more obvious examples, like Quentin and Tarohne, who display in their persona a disturbing mindset. But if we were to say... find someone who was suffering from some other mental illness that wasn't one that would lead to murder I'd have them sent to a revamped Aeonar -- or some other fortress that would serve a similar function, but be more welcoming for mentally ill people. For the sake of discussion, I'll just reference the Aeonar, but don't take that as me saying it must be the Aeonar.

Less a prison, more an asylum for the mentally ill like we have today.

The Aeonar's Veil would be mended as best as it could be -- since its Veil is thin -- and I'd have the walls hold special runes that do the same thing the Circle's repository doorway did. They negated the workings of magic. So Mages that might be really distraught over their magic -- and thus very hyper and possibly more prone to possession -- could ask for a transfer to these areas.

Or the FE/KC would discuss the prospect.

Anyway, psychology operates under the premise that there is indeed a limit to how much a person can deal with. PTSD is accepted as being a traumatic experience so horrific that it overwhelms the person's ability to cope.

In other words, breaking point.

And PTSD can indeed directly affect a sufferer's reasoning ability and their behavior. Always? No. Sometimes? Certainly. You yourself admitted that people who suffer from it would not be found accountable for their crimes. Huon is a case in point of what seems like PTSD, based on what we know of his life in the Circle and before his life there.

As this is a video game, we cannot clinically diagnose who has what -- well... Kelder, we can. But for Huon... it seems like PTSD

He was dragged away from the Circle in chains, abused for being an Elven Mage, unable to see his wife, and ultimately lost his mind as a result -- something that his strange eyes seem to point to. 

His eyes are abnormal. Almost.... devoid of humanity. I cannot hold him accountable for his actions if his mind was broken due to the abuses he suffered in Kirkwall's Circle for ten years. Ten years of being unable to see the woman he married. Ten years of being subject to abuse by bigoted Templars who would torture and kill Elven children in their pursuit for certain Mages.

Who knows what he might've done if he could've just seen his wife and spend time with her.

[quote]
Its a common mistake to think "insanity" and "psychopathy" exist as psychological conditions. They don't, however. Those are not clinical terms. Those are legal terms with no medical standard or basis. To use PTSD in one example, and then "Psychopathy" in another would demonstrate an unacceptable difference in standard. In this example, it would allow the entertainment of pseudo-science in the determination of a serious decision. You're essentially arguing a harsh reverse judgment of the Insanity Defense. You have to convince that Tahrone, Huon, and Quentin suffer from untreatable clinical conditions that completely nullify their ability to understand the difference between a moral right and  wrong if you want to convict them before a major offense has been 
committed. This would be incredibly difficult to do as no such disorders exist.[/quote]

Who said anything about convicting them? About going through with a trial? I would not dare say someone should be put on trial for something they might do. What I'm talking about is establishing a joint tribunal of Templars and Mages that would routinely interview various Mages and Templars and judge whether they are mentally fit or mentally ill.

There would be no trial. It'd be, in a very basic sense, therapy intent on establishing the psychological well-being of a Mage or Templar.

If they are deemed mentally ill in the sense of being too zealous in their duties or showing signs of acting like Quentin or Tarohne, the FE and the KC would discuss dismissal of Templars or Tranquility of Mages.

Which happens already. The FE and the KC discuss Tranquility, and often those Mages who are deemed weak of willpower or are seen as not being mentally able are subject to the RoT.

For the lesser cases of mental illness that perhaps define Kelli, Tranquility would not be considered. There are altneratives.

However, this is a discussion all its own. I'm content to drop the topic now, not out of conceding the point but because it's something that requires a lot of thought as to just how it should work in the Circle system. And it's something that separated paragraphs in a larger discussion will not help to try and establish the idea. 


[quote]
Connor would have been under the supervision of an Enchanter and the Templars. He wouldn't have been able to access an instructors tomes on demonology-- Jowan left them out and he didn't teach Connor about demonic interaction. Connor is a smart and good child. I do not believe he would make an informed decision to summon a demon. He calls the Desire Demon, "The Bad Lady" and states that he is afraid of her. I don't think he would intentionally summon a "Bad Lady" after receiving instruction in the Circle of Magi.[/quote]

But you have no way of knowing how much knowledge he would've gained in the Circle before Uldred happened. All you can say is that he'd be in a place that teaches Mages. You can't say he would've definitely received information on Demons before Uldred's rebellion. 

[quote]
I don't understand this rationale. Isolde can't divine the future. She had no advanced knowledgeof Uldred's uprising. It would not at all factor into her decision to send Connor to the Circle.[/quote]

That's not my point.

My point is that you saying Connor would've been fine in the Circle is a falsehood, because he wouldn't have been. The Circle would be plagued by Uldred's uprising, he'd see Demons and Abominations everywhere, and he might've died there. And there is no way to know how much magical knowledge Connor might've been taught. 

I am not saying Isolde should've known. In fact, I never said that. That was a correlation you chose to see for no reason other then to talk about it.

I am saying that either way, Connor was screwed. So you saying had Isolde sent him to the Circle he would've been fine is factually inaccurate. 

  [quote]
I think to suggest Connor would
have sought a demon after receiving an appropriate education is a rather
 baseless assumption. It isn't supported in what we know about Connor.[/quote]

Which is that he went to a Demon for the purpose of saving his father. I would think a tome on Demons would actually state the dangers of associating with them. So if he read a book on them, he'd know it was folly.

Out of curiosity, you mention that he says he used a book. I've heard this mentioned before, and yet I've never seen it before. Do you happen to have a youtube video of it happening?


  [quote]
Jowan is a horrible a Mage. That is no
condemnation of him-- he seems to be a generally good-hearted individual. But he is an absolute idiot in magical affairs and acceptable Circle behavior.[/quote]

I wouldn't say he's a horrible Mage. A bumbler, certainly. But blood magic isn't inherently evil, despite the illegality of it. Sure, he broke the law when he practiced it. But I'm led to believe Uldred led him to blood magic and used his (Jowan's) desire to be stronger to get him to do it. 

Uldred is known to lead Mages to blood magic and sell them out to the Templars and FE, so that his own status as a maleficar is hidden and his influence in the Circle grows. And in the Mage Origin, it's stated that someone witnessed Jowan practicing such magic.

So I'm willing to give him a pass on that if Uldred was the person that led him to it in the first place as well as sold him out.

And for Redcliffe, I don't exactly fault him for believing Loghain. Loghain was a hero, and he will say that while he was confused on why Arl Eamon was exactly a threat to the nation -- which isn't entirely inaccurate. Eamon wasn't an enemy, but he was a threat to the nation's security -- he didn't see a reason why he shouldn't believe the Teyrn.

Sure, he may not have taught Connor about Demons. But I think that's not something you should immediately delve into. It's important, certainly. But would Connor have been able to handle the idea of being always at risk of possession by malevolent entities of the Fade as his first lesson?

I can't say for sure, but certainly I'd say not everyone would be able to handle that.

Like I said, how much was he able to teach Connor? Was it a little due to being a bumbler or being caught poisoning Eamon and unable to continue which led to Connor going to a Demon? Personally, I lean more towards the latter, as Isolde seemed to be aware of the poisoning in such a way that Jowan was caught in the act.

Maybe not by her, but certainly by someone. 

And Jowan does know about things concerning Demons. Further, if spared and told to leave Redcliffe, he uses his blood magic to defend refugees of the Blight.

[quote]That was a rhetorical line of questioning. You didn't use the socratic or scientific method to develop and test this. Psychology is a science and must maintain a standard. You have a hypothesis as to what healthy Mage or Templar behavior is, but this hasn't been investigated or tested as a theory-- and you can't develop a method of examination for an untested theory and stake lives on the results. For example, it may be perfectly healthy behavior for a Templar to be suspicious of Mages-- being too lax could interfere with their ability to do their job well.[/quote]

Note that I actually stated that healthy behavior for a Templar is someone who's willing to work with Mages but willing to take action on both sides of the fence when necessary. Suspicion of Mages is necessary, certainly. You cannot become too lax in your duties.

But paranoia and never trusting the Mages is certainly not necessary, never mind unhealthy.


[quote]
You haven't determined what suspicious behavior for a Mage or Templar is. You haven't determined through research what a "fair disposition" is in relation to handling such a situation-- or why any Seeker would be qualified to analyze the results of clinical examinations. You can't determine good theory without scientific observation first. And this method hasn't been fully developed.

Without a proper method a "psychological exam" to determine insanity or zeal is no more than a subjective and pseudo-scientific judgement of character. Stating the Circles of Magi need psychological exams is not useful when there are no psychological theories available to derive successful methods of analysis and testing.[/quote]

Fair enough. I won't concede the point, but I'm at least going to say that I will drop the matter because it's ultimately a larger discussion and more information on Thedosian psychology would be welcome before it gets tackled

Though I think you and I can at least agree the Circle should do more to get rid of its Alriks, Karrases, Quentins, and Tarohnes.

Certainly, they just don't help matters for either side. Because they are the overzealous and the dangerously insane.

I'll still maintain the Circles should have them, but meh.

[quote] Irving says it in his office before Jowan and Lily are caught if the Mage Protagonists presses him. He knows Jowan will be made Tranquil soon, but he knows he has to cooperate with Gregoir "If the Circle must punish one of it's own, I will see the Chantry done the same courtesy. Lily will not walk free while my apprentice suffers." The Mage Protagonist can reply, "That's rather vicious of you." And he will reply with more spite and surliness, "If we mention her involvement the Chantry will claim that she was framed. No, she must be caught in the act." The Mage Protagonist can reply, "You're just using Lily to get back at the Chantry." Irving doesn't deny it. "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules, and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary."[/quote]

Now I remember that. I've only done the Magi origin twice, once betraying Jowan and once helping him earnestly.

Can't fault him for that mentality, honestly. And it's not like Gregoir wasn't accepting of the notion either. He was legitimately pissed that she would do such a thing.


  [quote]
Performance
evaluations are not clinical evaluations. Unapproved RoTs would be
first-class rule-breaking and Knight-Commander Gregoir could handle
discipline in that situation as he saw fit.[/quote]

In this case, I'd say it qualified as both. The Templars were a bit perturbed by his statements, thinking that he wasn't taking his duty seriously. I'd hazard a guess that they were further worried about his clinical well-being if he remained in a Circle with dozens of women -- Mages and Templars -- of various ages, but wouldn't mention it in a letter.

[quote]His tone indicates otherwise, but if that isn't evidence enough, he tells his men to take Samson to be executed along with the rebel Mages. And Hawke must recomend the survivors be executed for his dialogue to 
initiate. [/quote]

Well... I'd say that simply taking Samson in doesn't necessarily mean he'll be executed -- though it is likely.

Eh, as I've said on other threads, Cullen's a moderate amongst Kirkwall's Order. I may not have said that here, but that's certainly what he is in DAII. 

And it's not saying much.

Personally, I'm operating more on the idea of how he'll play out in DAIII. A man that's seen the worst of both sides firsthand so he'll try and make sense of where the Order should be regarding the Mages and themselves. He'll be guilt-ridden over his complicity in the unjustified RoA, having taken part in the murders of men, women, and even children ranging from six to twelve years old. 

He'll know that not even the Templars are immune from abusing power, and will know that the Mages do need to be taught on what to do and watched carefully. 

Certainly makes him an interesting character, albeit a bit of an oblivious ****** in DAII -- something DG jested about regarding his ignorance of a Mage Hawke using magic in front of him. Possibly with Merrill and Anders alongside him.

Cullen's got potential for DA3, assuming Bioware writes him believably to reflect what he's seen.

[quote]
Hawke would be a friend of Thrask's whom is intentionally interfering in Templar business[/quote]

That's not grounds for killing someone. At the very least, it's grounds for detaining them until the Templars inquire as to the person's intentions and at most detaining them for some period of time.

But killing them simply for stating "I'm a friend of Thrask's" is not what the Order stands for.


[quote]. And if Karras believes the Mages are using blood magic
within the Circle, his statement regarding the RoA is not very
outstanding for a Templar.[/quote]

His statement is simply "The robes will get what's coming to them". It's less about believing they're using blood magic and simply bigotry against the Mages.

This is also the man that goes in to Alain's chambers, rapes him, and threatens Alain with Tranquility if he speaks. 

So definitely not what the Order is about.

  [quote]
Don't think I've ever seen this book.[/quote]

It's there, though it's a bit hard to find. 


  [quote]
I doubt the Chantry will abandon their method for a Dalish and Elvhen one.[/quote]

Perhaps not, but they should at least recognize that their method is not the only method that works. I'm sure if the Elves and the Circle were willing to exchange information on how to handle magic, they could learn some things from each other.




  [quote]
That
was not the claim. You claimed Mages are taught to control magic not
cultivate or excercise magical skill. There is a difference. Your intent
 and criticism was clear.[/quote]

That was my claim. It may not have been clear, but it was my claim. Controlling magic to me is a broad notion that covers self-control to magical mastery over the schools.

  [quote]
You don't know how it is taught to children in the Circle.[/quote]

Well, there is that children's book. Which doesn't exactly cast it in my favor.


  [quote]
Why
are you judging Leliana for that statement? She has just begun her
investigation when Hawke meets her during Faith. You are judging her
hypothesis incorrect based on information she does not have the minute
after being attacked by their group in a Chantry. And "Likely" is not a
determination. The word leaves room for doubt.[/quote]

*Sigh*

I'm judging her incorrect based on the metagaming knowledge. It's factually inaccurate based on what the game tells us.

[quote]No, Leliana states that the 
Divine has believed an outside force has been manipulating events in
Kirkwall and that the attack proves her correct. She does not state the
Divine specifically believed the Resolutionists were behind unrest in
the City. 

You are largely still working from that assumption. You now argue she should known better about something she was still investigating.[/quote]

No, I'm simply arguing that her belief that they were likely behind the unrest is ultimately proven to be untrue. 

That's all I've said.

But you seem intent on misrepresenting my words, so...


[quote]
You're
using the Pro-Mage alternative version of The Last Holdouts to tell me
that Ser Agatha wasn't working with equal authority? She wasn't even in
the Pro-Mage version. Yes, Ser Agatha was also chosen by Meredith to
handle the blood mages. You talk to both Ser Mettin and Ser Agatha as
leaders of the raids in the Hanged Man to initiate the mission as a
Pro-Templar Hawke.[/quote]

I know. But there's nothing that tells us that Ser Agatha, a moderate, was picked by Meredith for the death squad when the third person omniscient journal says that Meredith's death squad consisted of "her handpicked zealots given orders to "purge" mage sympathizers".

In fact, that's such a glaring contradiction of facts that I can't help but label it wrong to believe Ser Agatha is a part of Meredith's death squad. Agatha's a moderate. The death squad consists of "zealots tasked by Meredith with 'purging' mage sympathizers".

Not mages. Mage sympathizers. I doubt Ser Agatha would accept such a duty, let alone be recruited by Meredith. She's a moderate. 

Ser Mettin's quest on the pro-Templar path is less that of a death squad and more a normal Templar mission. That does not mean he is not part of the death squad. Only that he's pulling double duty, selected by Meredith to kill mage sympathizers while also performing his regular Templar duties of apprehending rogue Mages.

  [quote]
That is the Pro-Mage
version of the mission in Lowtown. The Pro-Templar version states
nothing but to eliminate the fugitive blood mages.[/quote]

And we find out the death squad has been killing the friends and family of Mages in the pro-Templar quest.

Also, that doesn't mean Ser Agatha was recruited by Meredith for the death squad consisting of zealots tasked with killing Mage sympathizers.

You're trying to make Agatha out to be a part of a zealot group picked by Meredith when Agatha isn't a zealot in her beliefs, and thus Meredith wouldn't have gone to her.



  [quote]
I've addressed the first three unsubstantiated claims,
and no-- submitting an informal appeal to the Divine does not mean
Meredith is ignoring or is crazily intent on defying Elthina. Its not an
indicator that's she's out of control. Anyone who has ever filed a case
in an appellate court is a disturbed malcontent that needs to be
watched if that is the standard. All it means is the two had a
disagreement. To ignore Elthina would have been to invoke the RoA after
her denial.[/quote]

They're not unsubstantiated. I've provided the evidence. You've just ignored it. 

  [quote]
I did not twist words. You make an 
"cause and effect" statement claming Leliana did not investigate
sufficiently, and that her inaction was a result of Bioware's DA2
deadline.[/quote]

I don't think you can tell me what I meant when I was typing that out. Maybe it came across that way due to poor wording and failing to separate what is linked together, but that doesn't mean it was my intent to say that.

   

[quote]
No, the "railroad effect" was simply a
by-product of the storytelling format Bioware chose. Building toward a
conclusion the framed narrative dictated was their intent. The game was
designed in a specific manner, but the effect it elicited from some of
the fanbase was not the intended or ideal effect.[/quote]

It wasn't even necessary. I mean, Meredith going crazy due to a lyrium idol and enacting an RoA after Anders' moment? Necessary.

But Act 3 leading up to that moment didn't need to be so railroad-y. Was DAO so railroady for leading up to the Archdemon fight?

Not as much as DAII was.

[quote]

It doesn't matter when it happens to him. When Meredith
uses the information agaisnt him, he is the Champion. He enjoys
visibility, and he has twice been burned by blood mages. It's PR 101.

No. Quentin is not a failing of the Templars.[/quote]

Um... yes he is. Chiefly so, as it's their duty to apprehend blood mages. Cullen will even state that the Templars are at fault.




  [quote]
Meredith
can run the Gallows how she determines fit. Each Knight-Commander is
allowed to run the Circle of Magi as determined necessary. You can
disagree with her strictness, but it is her right to rule the Circle in
such a manner.[/quote]

If it begets an endless cycle of violence, I'd say it's not working. Especially if prior to her ascending to that position, Kirkwall wasn't as violent between the two groups as it became when she took that role.

[quote]A Mage, then.
[/quote]

Sure, discount everything because he's a Mage! Can't possibly be right in saying that there are fewer Templars of noble standing like Ser Maarevar Carver! Those rapists and pricks in the Order are really just good men!

Bah...

[quote]
An apostate hiding from the
Chantry isn't being abused. Most Mages in the Circle are not abused. A
Templar hunting a Mage-- especially a blood mage, demon consort-- is
doing his job.[/quote]

That wasn't your assertion. You asserted that mages like Huon and Evelina made their choice to go to Demons or blood magic and that they're at fault, completely content to ignore what they've actually suffered.

No, I believe using blood magic and consorting with demons is a conscious decision. The Templars never force Mages to do those things. Mages choose to do those things. That is a firm belief of mine.


[quote]Blood mages and maleficar are not brought to the Circle.[/quote]

I said apostates. If I was referring to maleficarum, I would've said maleficarum. 

[quote]
Only the renegades do those
things. You can't prove the majority of the Templars starve, beat, or
illegally Tranqil Mages, or that Meredith condones such behavior if
discovered.[/quote]

I've already proven the tacit approval of the illegal Tranquilizations if not official. And yes, I can prove the majority of Templars beat and starve the Mages.

I can frickin' hear it going on.

  [quote]
No, it supports the argument for annulment, and you can't refute it. I won't agree to disagree.[/quote]

Well I am, so I'm not going to continue this part of the discussion.


  [quote]
"He
wasn't actually doing it." "Yes, it was never going to work." "... had
absolutely no link to bring an acutual soul back to life." Thanks.
Orsino is the First Enchanter. He is a smart and talented Mage. He had
to recognize the difference. He has no business being an Enchanter if he
 can't.[/quote]

Oh for Christ's sake. Now I'm starting to get a bit livid here.

We have no idea what Quentin's notes were actually talking about. Given how in both sides, Orsino denounces the Harvester ritual, I'd say that wasn't what he was supporting.

As I've said, Quentin could've sent notes that talked about his goal -- resurrection -- in a way that didn't state "Yea, so I'm gonna piece together the parts that most resemble my late wife and try and bind her soul to that thing".

I'd say that Quentin's notes were duplicitous. They were talking about resurrection in a way that hid the actual things Quentin was doing, but pointed to true resurrection.

Alternatively, Quentin originally researched true resurrection, sent notes to Orsino on the subject, and then started seeing parts of his wife everywhere and decided that was the right way.

Despite... well... not being the right way.

He's not sane, and all I know is that the letter implies Orsino was led to believe Quentin was researching true resurrection.

[quote]
If he thought it would stop Meredith or save
the lives of the Mages under his leadership, he would be excited and
endorse it. He did, after all. He doesn't have to be "giddy" about
becoming a monster, however.[/quote]

No. Tell me right now where it states in-game that the letter we read explicitly states Orsino, the man who denounces the magic on both sides, was endorsing that.



  [quote]
Re-read the
statement I made. "His [Quentin's] extensive research into blood-magic
and necromancy allowed him and Orsino to investigate the limits of the
magics and investigate a theoretical transformation. It is likely Orsino
had to perform the test trial himself, and he had only one shot at
casting the ritual correctly." That "one shot" would be the end-game Act
 3 Harvester transformation.[/quote]

Right... because you're totally going to bank on a theoretical concept. You're totally going to support something that'll kill your soul because it involves using dead flesh and a Demon. 

That doesn't fly with me. Orsino is not unwilling to work with Templars at all. Just Meredith and her cronies, of which Kirkwall has many. He is not unwilling to punish blood mages if they're using it maliciously, as he tells Hawke to only intervene if they are in fact using blood magic.

I'm certainly led to believe he was merely an academic blood mage like Adralla and never a practitioner of it until the endgame -- indeed, he says as much on the pro-Templar path.


[quote]No, it's not a punishment, nor is it a reward. It's simply a necessary action in Meredith's view.[/quote]

I wasn't discussing how Meredith views it. I'm looking at it from the actual point of view that is truly is. It's a punishment, plain and simple.

She views it as a reward for her, as she demonstrates both before and during the Annulment.


  [quote]
The Templars can search Quentin's underground hovel. He's squatting. And Hawke didn't destroy evidence.[/quote]

Oh for ****'s sake, now you're ignoring the facts of the game to distort it to your own perception. The Templars didn't investigate Quentin's hovel. Emeric tells us this And they certainly don't do it afterwards either.


  [quote]
You don't fight your citizens, either. That's political suicide, and the Mages are not citizens of Kirkwall.[/quote]

It wasn't political suicide for the Arl of Amaranthine/Warden-Commander, who threatened his rioting citizens with death if they persisted.

And no mob had formed in Kirkwall. At all. If one had formed, then maybe I could get behind it. But appeasing a mob that hasn't formed and more then likely wouldn't form is an asenine concept. It's a flimsy justification, especially when Meredith has already showed signs of controlling the populus when they showed signs of forming a mob in the opening. 

Never mind how Anders submitted himself to justice and had no connection to the Circle. I doubt the citizens would be so blood-crazed for Mage blood -- when at least a good portion of the citizens are related to denizens of the Circle -- if she at least explained the situation.

Like I said, see what I said earlier when I said "GAH! Damnation!".


[quote]This
is my consistent issue with your posts. You've already made up your
mind on Meredith, and you won't hear any argument. I feel like I'm
wasting my time.[/quote]

Funny, given how you've made up your mind on Orsino, the Templars, and the Mages. I feel like I'm wasting my time as well. 

  [quote]
Orsino never did those things, and there is no indication he was planning to. 
He had over three years to take the blame-- to do something-- and he
didn't.[/quote]

He does do those things. Consistently does he speak up for his charges. Not in the sense of giving himself up, but I said "I believe he would do those things when he assisted Meredith on rooting out the blood mages as he offered during the endgame". 

I never said "He's done that before". But he does speak up for his charges on other matters.

  [quote]
Then don't use headcannon to prop up a rose-tintned character analysis. Strictly use evidence.[/quote]

Isn't that what you're doing regarding Meredith, the woman you're defending? You're using what you believe to be the reasons why she cited she had to annul the Circle, when there's no evidence of that. You're using the reasons why you believe Leliana couldn't fully investigate as a means to defend the Chantry.

You're using headcanon to prop up your rose-tinted character analysis of Meredith. 


  [quote]
There is no evidence of any of this. Not even a hint or iota.[/quote]

Please, explain to me how Meredith, her Templars, and the Mages got to Hightown before Hawke did to fight the Qunari when they reside in the Gallows.

Please tell me how they acted in response to something yet managed to get up to Hightown before Hawke when they were further away from the conflict then Hawke was.



  [quote]
Wynne became 
an abomination. A spirit possessed her. It's a grey area, but she doubts
 the Chantry would recognize the difference.[/quote]

I said Mages like Wynne, Irving, or Morrigan in terms of their skills regarding Demons and mentality towards magic for the former two.

So saying "Wynne's an Abomination" doesn't address the point I was actually making.



[quote]
The Chantry won't help the
Mages help themselves unless there is a big benefit the church can hope
to reap. The risk of demonology is too great to their authority and
leash on the Circle.[/quote]

So, the Mages must suffer from a lack of knowledge because the Chantry wants to keep the Mages under their thumb as their slaves.

That's certainly something to stand up for!

  [quote]
There is no God in Dragon Age. If you mean David Gaider, just state his name. It will limit any confusion.[/quote]

Word of God doesn't just mean David Gaider. David isn't the sole writer of Dragon Age. I'm not going to state the name of a dev regarding information I believe was said on the forums if I can't properly recall the name of the person that said it.



  [quote]
What is this tangent? What purpose does it serve?[/quote]

Well, I was restating what I had said earlier in response to you bringing up Christianity out of nowhere.


[quote]But you don't know the Veil will tear[/quote]

I do. Death thins the Veil, Demons have been crossing over without Mage assistance, and the lyrium idol in its broken state tore the Veil just by its mere presence as we see in Haunted.

Further, during the Annulment there are a few instances of Demons coming out on their own. No Mages being involved.

Like in the courtyard outside of the offices of the heads of the Circle. You fight two Pride Demons, an Arcane Horror, many corpses, etc.


  [quote]
Not talking about it, is not the same as not
sensing it, considering you stated all Templars and Mages can. "The Veil
is Thin" is just not that important to the overall main story of DA2.
It plays a small role, but it doesn't require that much attention to
delineate the Mage-Templar tension. Working on the Veil would side-track
 the entire campaign and lose drama.[/quote]

Drama for the sake of drama without taking into account the lore of the series seems to desensitize the story. It is important to the overall main story. 

Then again, David Gaider said that while it exists as part of the lore, ultimately the gameplay guys wanted a lot of Mages to fight and the Bioware team went "Whoa... we've got few good Mages in the game". 

And also tried to justify the lack of good mages -- and though he didn't say anything, I imagine Templars as well -- by saying "Hawke's just got bad luck", which isn't exactly going to portray the conflict intelligently if all we see is the bad consistently.

So meh.


  [quote]
No, those examples do not illustrate
demons freely crossing the Veil. Sundermount is where a large battle
took place between the Tevinter Magisters and the Elhven. Both factions
summoned demons that still prowl the coast. They are responsible for the
 Shades and other creatures.[/quote]

You didn't address the Bone Pit or even the other areas. You focused solely on Sundermount. And note that the Thaig off of Sundermount is not Sundermount. 

Further, we have no idea if all of those Demons were the remnants of the war between Arlathan and the Magisters. Some, undoubtedly. Audacity, certainly.

But I don't know if they're all the remnants of said war.



  [quote]
I don't care.
Speculations on Kirkwall is an objective journal entry. Whoever wrote it
seems to be connecting more of the dots than the Wardens
mind-controlled an old Darkspawn.[/quote]

Oh please. A speculative codex penned by a Warden is hardly objective. For all we know Corypheus wants that Warden to think those thoughts to try and get him/her to release him and try to kill him so he "won't affect Kirkwall anymore".

Given how game evidence shows that he can only affect beings that bear the Taint -- Anders saying that he's being influenced by him, Janeka ultimately realizing it, the Warden Mage that killed himself -- I'm less inclined to even give that codex the time of day because of one simple fact:

A Warden wrote it.

If three Wardens we see in-game show us and tell us he can influence/control beings that bear the Taint... I'm not going to give a codex penned by a Warden any credence because that Warden might have been affected by Corypheus.

  [quote]
Because there would be no point in Bioware writing it. It would just be a waste of time and resources.[/quote]

There was no point in the Load Limit Reached codex, or the Arl Foreshadow codex, or the "Dwarves dug too high and too frugally" statue in the DE Origin.

Doesn't mean they weren't put there for the hell of it. 



  [quote]
"Corypheus
is too powerful. Nothing will hold him forever. The seals are already
weakening. We must find a way to fortify them, and soon."[/quote]

But even the best magic fades...

Seems to imply that the magic fades on its own.


  [quote]
But their statement does not prohibit an
affect on the Veil, and thus an indirect affect on Kirkwall's Mages
throughout the ages.[/quote]

And the lyrium idol which was proven to thin the Veil couldn't possibly have been the reason as to why Kirkwall's got a thin Veil, now could it? I mean, the red lyrium/lyrium idol rest directly beneath Kirkwall. And the Magisters are the ones who thinned the Veil.

Corypheus can't have thinned the Veil. The reasons why Kirkwall's got a thin Veil are as follows:

1) War between the Elves and Magisters
2) Magisters deliberately thinning the Veil by killing slaves in secret
3) Possibly the red lyrium/lyrium idol, as it rests directly beneath Kirkwall. We know the lyrium idol thins the Veil by its presence once broken, as Haunted displays. Certainly, once it was brought topside and Bartrand sold it to Meredith in Act 2 it was thinning the Veil over those 3 years.
4) Crapton of war.

Corypheus has no effect on the Veil and no effect on anything that doesn't bear the Taint. He can only influence beings that do bear the Taint. That's why Kirkwall sees more Darkspawn then other areas. Because they're trying to free him due to his sway over them.

  [quote]
Because
they are. You continue to cite the Pro-Mage version of that mission
when the discussion pertains to the Pro-Templar version. Ser Mettin and
Ser Agatha are hunting blood mages.[/quote]

The discussion was pertaining to the pro-Mage version. Then you started arguing the pro-Templar version and saying "Ser Agatha's with them, so the death squad's not all bad" when there's no proof that Ser Agatha -- a moderate -- was selected by Meredith, when the game goes out of its way to state that Meredith picked zealots for the death squad.

  [quote]
You're making the assumption the blood mages were
beaten and starved and that's why they left the Circle. There is no
evidence of that.[/quote]

I'm not talking about the blood mages in the Pro-Templar quest at all. I'm talking about the Mage I know was beaten and starved and referencing the other points of dialogue where it's brought up.

  [quote]
Use evidence to support your
arguments. Don't assume you already know everything about the situation. About the
motive. About the parameters. And don't generalize. That's all you have to do.[/quote]

I am using evidence.

I'm citing the game.

You're citing what you like to believe, twisting what doesn't suit that perception, and tossing out the rest.

[quote]nformal
search warrants, obviously. Someone has to agree to the search of
private property, and abandoned property still has an owner. I doubt the
owner, even if he is a slumlord wants his property investigated by the
Templars. An untraceable murder in an old Foundry is one thing. Demonic
presence that warrant a Templar investigation is another.[/quote]

And Demons were present. And that information was brought to the Templars. And the Templars didn't investigate, as they pawned it off to the City Guard. 

[quote]
Why does Hawke have to tell Aveline how to do her job?
She has the evidence she needs and the authority to call for an
investigation. She had what she needed to proceed-- that's her fault.
She could have accompanied Hawke to the scene. Really, what else is he
supposed to do?[/quote]

He's not supposed to do it, but it'd certainly help if he pointed out the idiocy to Aveline -- though more eloquently than saying "You're an idiot for not doing this".

If she's not doing the job, and he's not advising her friend, they're both damning the city. Her more so then him, but the Templars more so then she.

  [quote]
And Leandra couldn't have heard about this already? Likely years ago?[/quote]

Because she's going to accept lilies from some unknown suitor when she knows there's a killer out there who uses lilies to lure noble women to him? 

You honestly think if Leandra knew about the killer that used lilies, she'd accept the lilies? That's just... baffling.


  [quote]
That's Aveline's fault entirely.[/quote]

I blame Hawke as well, though Aveline bears the most blame. Why should he keep his mouth shut to Aveline when he's helped her before on her personal missions and knows there's a killer roaming around? What, politeness?

Because being polite is more important then keeping the damn city safe.


  [quote]
You finally acknowledge its Aveline's
fault. Pick that bone with Bioware. But, who knows. The City Guard is
always stretched thin and solving a random murder with no identifiable
suspect or leads just isn't high on her list of priorities.[/quote]

I ackowledged she bears some blame. The Templars bear the most blame, because Demons were involved from the very beginning of the quest arc. And the Templars did nothing.


[quote]
You're still assuming Hawke saw that.[/quote]

He looks in the direction of the Mage before the Mage runs off.

I'd say he saw him.


  [quote]
They may have, but that method isn't better than Templar patrol of the area.[/quote]

They don't do that. Aveline made a formal request for Templars to assist the City Guard and she got shot down.


[quote]The Templars can do their own patrols in Lowtown. They don't have to help the City-Guard in that respect.[/quote]

Because working separately always accomplishes more then working together and pooling resources!

[quote]But Meredith was better for Chantry supremacy. That's all it is.[/quote]

Only if she had actually served the interests of the Chantry beyond the intertwining of church and state. Is Kirkwall the better for her presence, or does it suffocate with her at the helm?

Simply being a Knight-Commander in the seat of the Viscount means little if you're not making a strong case for why it should be. And often, she fears blood magic is everywhere, and when some mages do use it to oppose her because her methods to find blood mages are abhorrent and oppressive, she uses it to justify further oppression of the Mages.

Which only begets more and more violence. 



[quote]

It's a fair question.
I've only seen you call her and Elthina idiots or incompetent-- even
though they've been doing their jobs-- high ranking and pivitol jobs--
for decades. And both of them are women. You continue to agrue Meredith
was completely insane at the advent of Act 3. That she can't reason.
That her emotions and hatred have overcome her. It's a bit sterotypical.[/quote]

It's not a fair question. It's presuming that because I dislike two characters that happen to be female, I dislike all female characters that are important period.

It's saying that I can't possibly dislike them for their actions or lack of actions, but because of their gender.

I like Anora as a politician. I find Cailan to be a foolish, spoiled king. I support Loghain all the time.

Gender does not factor into who I approve or disapprove of. 

[quote]
That Blood Magic thread in the DA3 forum indicated otherwise when I read through it.[/quote]

That's not me fuming.

When I fume regarding Merrill, people know.


  [quote]
Suspicious evidence that could be found and investigated, even by chance. Orsino's office is directly across from Meredith's.[/quote]

Not if Orsino incinerated it after reading it, a la Roy Mustang did when he was given a missive by the Armstrong family.


  [quote]
And now the entire Circle is on the hook for conspiracy.[/quote]

Only if Meredith catches wind of Orsino sending the Champion to the meeting, which would not be easily done if no one confessed to it and Orsino incinerated the secret missive.


  [quote]
No,
she doesn't have to because she has the authority in that relationship.
Orsino has to go to Meredith because she is his superior. Within the
Circle, Meredith has no superior. She doesn't have to ask Orsino about
anything.[/quote]

You, who will be tasked with the protection of the Circle, must be aware of its workings. The first enchanter is the heart of any tower. He will determine the course his Circle will take, he will choose which apprentices may be tested and made full mages, and you will work most closely with him.

--Knight-Commander Serain of the Chantry templars, in a letter to his successor.

This states that it's the duty of both to go to the other and work together to determine how the Circle functions.

[quote] Thesekind of stories are told all the time. And a refugee from Lothering 
orchestrating the coup of the century wouldn't strike me as credible.
It's a matter of taste.[/quote]

It's not the Rags to Riches that doesn't strike me as credible. 

Just the lack of gaining political/popular ties during Act 1 to help establish his presence as a noble. And then using those political ties during the Qunari attack to fight back against them -- as not every noble was rounded up, and certainly not the commoners.

And it would be less a refugee orchestrating a coup and more a refugee using politics to his advantage, up until a certain point. Then circumstance along with his own political savvy would help him move further up the ladder of fame.

  [quote]
I don't know that Perrin Threnhold was a good man.
Seneschal Bran states he was a tyrant though he agreed with his goal to
oust the Templar Order. But it just can't happen. The Templars were too
strong then, and during Dumar's reign, they're even stronger under
Meredith.[/quote]

I think he was a good man, albeit rash in his decisions. I would not have tried to oust the Templars, but I certainly wouldn't have acquiesced to them having political clout in the city. I would've maybe opened back up the ports -- it's my belief that Kirkwall was suffering financially and that's why he closed them -- or if I was him prior to sealing them at least lowered the taxes on trying to get in. I wouldn't have gone after the Templars.

That was just a boneheaded move.



[quote
She brings it up quite a few times and its never turned against her. Hawke just plays the, "That's a low blow!" card.[/quote]

I dislike how Bioware failed to put it in there.

Nevertheless, it could've been turned against her. And it should've, especially since Cullen will admit the Templars are at fault for Quentin going as far as he did.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 novembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Knight of Dane]

Wooo TEWR *applauds*

Didn't read it, but such long posts deserve a cheer.

[dragonflight288]

Phew! Just barely finished reading the entire post. Well thought out arguments TEWR, nice use of logic and excellent citations of in-game events.

[lil yonce]

*TEWR-- I see you responded to the post I had to take down about thirty minutes after I put it up. Be aware there are a few minor differences in this post and the one I posted a few days ago. If you want to tweak your response in the post above, go ahead. I likely won't write another post in response to your new one for a couple days. And watch your tone. I haven't thoroughly read your post but I can sense a lot of hostility from a first glance. If this discussion so greatly affects you, we should stop.

*To the two posters above-- this is the post TEWR replied to above.

[quote]You keep using absence of evidence to justify your statements.[/quote][quote]If you cannot accept that the absence of evidence does not mean the evidence doesn't exist, then there's little point in continuing this discussion.[/quote][quote]That's my point. Just because the evidence isn't seen in-game does not mean it does not exist in-world.[/quote]
I don't understand the rationale behind staking an argument on an entirely unknown factor.

"And it is your job to provide evidence of Cullen's supposed political activity in Hightown. It is my job to simply review your evidence and determine-- through analysis-- the validity of it in this debate. If you cannot present any evidence of Cullen's political involvement or prowess-- I don't have to accept your argument."

[quote]Agree to disagree, as that's about all it's going to come down to. I think psychotherapy and general counseling would work in a setting like Thedas where the majority of Mages watch out for one another -- as the games show us -- and Thedas has already laid the groundwork for psychological progress.[/quote]
Psychotherapy does not currently exist in the DA universe, nor does it function in the same fashion as general counseling. To use the terms interchangeably would be incorrect. I think it is necessary to understand the difference between the two-- especially when using it as the basis of an argument.

[quote]From my limited understanding of the two ideas, behaviorism believes that you can actually cure -- or at least alter -- the psychological disorders one might have.[/quote]
No, that is Behavior Modification Theory-- an extension of Behaviorism. It is not Behaviorism itself.

[quote]For cases like Quentin and Tarohne, I do not think they can be helped. What I said is that they can be taken care of before they become a problem, because they would be seen as showing signs of being mentally unstable. I do not think they can be helped. I think they would be displaying acts of their own nature that point to them being a possible threat to society and they would be A) made Tranquil or sent to the Aeonar.[/quote]
There is a medical standard in psychological evaluation. Each condition or disorder has a set of characteristics that define it. And there is no condition that describes a malicious personality.

[quote]I would say that's more a humanistic mindset. Again though, I have a limited understanding of the two concepts. But for cases like Connor, whose acts are directly influenced by his environment and his upbringing, I think that can be helped. By counseling and the like.[/quote]
This is Behavior Modification Theory at work.

[quote]I'd even say that behaviorism and humanism aren't always mutually exclusive. For Connor, it seems to indicate that. His behavior was influenced by his human nature as a child that cared deeply for his family. Of course, as I don't know these two concepts fully I could just be talking out of my ass. If not however, I'd like to say I'm six of one and half a dozen of the other. I'm a humanist and a behaviorist, depending on the circumstances.[/quote]
No, Behaviorism and Humanism are differentiated schools of thought.

[quote]And we've seen people in our own world who have been influenced by their environments to the point that they do, in fact, reach their breaking point. Look at soldiers. Coming home from war, some of them do snap because of the things they've done and witnessed. It's PTSD. Trauma can warp a person's mentality at times so that they're not acting logically and aren't choosing to do something anymore. They are doing it because they've reached the breaking point.[/quote]
No, PTSD is a clinical condition. It has its own characteristics. There is a medical standard in the evaluation of PTSD. "Snapping" under or because of stress is not PTSD. And the disorder itself does not directly affect a suffer's reasoning ability, nor does it itself induce a change in behavior or mental attitude. A "breaking point" is however, indicative of a general and conscious change in mental attitude. And someone with PTSD is not going to be convicted of a crime if it can be proven the disorder interfered with their ability to distinguish between a moral right and wrong. A diagnosis of PTSD is not a death sentence simply because the sufferer might do something.

[quote]I think to say "These guys chose to do what they did" while ignoring what they went through -- or in the case of Tarohne, was either born a psychopath or snapped on her own -- actually begins to say that everyone is always in charge of their mental faculties and that the environment they're a part of never plays a part in how they handle situations.[/quote]
Its a common mistake to think "insanity" and "psychopathy" exist as psychological conditions. They don't, however. Those are not clinical terms. Those are legal terms with no medical standard or basis. To use PTSD in one example, and then "Psychopathy" in another would demonstrate an unacceptable difference in standard. In this example, it would allow the entertainment of pseudo-science in the determination of a serious decision. You're essentially arguing a harsh reverse judgment of the Insanity Defense. You have to convice that Tahrone, Huon, and Quentin suffer from untreatable clinical conditions that completely nullify their ability to understand the difference between a moral right and wrong if you want to convict them before a major offense has been commited. This would be incredibly difficult to do as no such disorders exist.

[quote][...]The environment itself factors into the things Connor chose to do. How much was he taught? Was Jowan caught before he could delve into the serious things? And so on and so forth. To say he was uninformed doesn't change much. Had he been sent to the Circle, he might not have been taught anything that Jowan didn't teach him.[/quote]
Connor would have been under the supervision of an Enchanter and under the watch of the Templars. He wouldn't have been able to access an instructors tomes on demonology-- Jowan left them out and he didn't deter Connor from demonic interaction. Connor is a smart and good child. I do not believe he would make an informed decision to summon a demon. He calls the Desire Demon, "The Bad Lady" and states that he is afraid of her. I don't think he would intentionally summon a "Bad Lady" after receiving intstruction against it in the Circle of Magi.

[quote]Never mind how he would've been subject to the Uldred Uprising where Abominations and Demons stalked the halls. And even had he lived, he no doubt would've been traumatized by such an incident. Or he would be possessed. I can't really agree to the notion of "He should've been sent to the Circle" because that would've ended in him being possessed, killed, or traumatized anyway due to Uldred.[/quote]
I don't understand this rationale. Isolde can't divine the future. She had no advanced knowledge of Uldred's uprising. It would not at all factor into her decision to send Connor to the Circle.

[quote]Redcliffe's villagers and remaining knights would be alive, but Eamon still would've been poisoned because Loghain would've still sought to incapacitate him. And had Connor lived through the incident at the Circle, he no doubt would've still gone to a Demon to save his father in some form or another. In fact, I'd conjecture that the events of Redcliffe would've happened in the Circle, and then moved back onto Redcliffe. Possessed Corpses would overrun what was left of the Templars, Connor the Abomination would escape, and Redcliffe would be sacked by walking corpses. This goes back to what I said up above. The environment itself can shape -- but doesn't always shape -- what we do. And sending Connor to the Circle would not have changed much.[/quote]
I think to suggest Connor would have sought a demon after receiving an appropriate education is a rather baseless assumption. It isn't supported in what we know about Connor.

[quote]What I'm interested in is how much Jowan taught Connor. Was it only a little bit because he was caught poisoning Arl Eamon and thus unable to teach his pupil? Or was it only a little bit because Jowan failed to actually teach the most important Mage lesson first? That Demons aren't to be trusted. Or was it only a little bit because, due to him being an apprentice at the time of his escape, he was not taught about Demons? The first two are more likely then the last, but the last cannot be entirely thrown out. It is, however, highly unlikely to be the case because Jowan does know about the Veil, Demons being able to create the corpses, and whatnot.[/quote]
Jowan is a horrible a Mage. That is no condemnation of him-- he seems to be a generally good-hearted individual. But he is an absolute idiot in magical affairs and acceptable Circle behavior.

[quote]Ideally objective. Who will administer them? In a system where the FE and KC are working together as they're supposed to, Mages selected by the Knight-Commander and Templars selected by the First Enchanter to form a (joint) tribunal. At the very least, anyway. But they would be bound by Chantry law to select people with a fair disposition. That way, the FE can select the Templars with a fair disposition while the KC can do the same. But, I would prefer the Seekers to select the Mages and Templars involved, as they are the Internal Affairs of the Templar Order -- but are still Templars of a sort themselves. Maybe even the Seekers themselves. Who will analyze the results? The Seekers, perhaps.[/quote][quote]Questions. Identifying factors? Responses that seem to be suspicious. If a Mage starts talking like Kelli did in Broken Circle, then that's suspicious. Saying she would welcome a sword of mercy through her is certainly worrying. For Templars, responses that seem to point towards a heavily bigoted disposition like that of Alrik, Karras, and Meredith. Remarking that Mages need to be protected from their own stupidity, need to be heavily restricted in what they can do, etc. Healthy behavior for a Mage would be someone like Wynne or Irving, who recognize that while magic is a good thing it carries with it certain risks and that ultimately it's a tool. Healthy behavior for a Templar is someone who wants to work with the Mages to fight Demons, wants to live as peacefully as possible with the Mages, but recognizes that you have to be willing to do hard things on both sides of the fence when Mages go bad or Templars overstep their authority -- like Thrask and eventually Cullen.[/quote][quote]In the Circle somewhere.[/quote][quote]Elaborate please on what you mean.[/quote]
That was a rhetorical line of questioning. You didn't use the socratic or scientific method to develop and test this. Psychology is a science and must maintain a standard. You have a hypothesis as to what healthy Mage or Templar behavior is, but this hasn't been investigated or tested as a theory-- and you can't develop a method of examination for an untested theory and stake lives on the results. For example, it may be perfectly healthy behavior for a Templar to be suspicious of Mages-- being too lax could interfere with his ability to do his job well. You haven't determined what suspicious behavior for a Mage or Templar is. You haven't determined through research what a "fair disposition" is in relation to handling such a situation-- or why any Seeker would be qualified to analyze or preside over the results of clinical examinations. You can't determine good theory without scientific observation first. And this method hasn't been fully developed because there is no science involved.
"Without a proper method a "psychological exam" to determine insanity or zeal is no more than a subjective and pseudo-scientific judgement of character. Stating the Circles of Magi need psychological exams is not useful when there are no psychological theories available to derive successful methods of analysis and testing."

[quote]I do not recall that. I recall Gregoir saying she should be sent to Aeonar for what she had done, and her saying after Jowan revealed himself to actually be a blood mage that she's willing to accept the Aeonar as her punishment.[/quote]
Irving says it in his office before Jowan and Lily are caught if the Mage Protagonists presses him. He knows Jowan will be made Tranquil soon and he knows he has to cooperate with Gregoir. "If the Circle must punish one of it's own, I will see the Chantry done the same courtesy. Lily will not walk free while my apprentice suffers." The Mage Protagonist can reply, "That's rather vicious of you." And he will reply with more spite and surliness, "If we mention her involvement the Chantry will claim that she was framed. No, she must be caught in the act." The Mage Protagonist can reply, "You're just using Lily to get back at the Chantry." Irving doesn't deny it. "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules, and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary."

[quote]Ah, but under Gregoir's command the Templars were subject to evaluations and were often reprimanded for saying/doing things that went against what the Order was supposed to do.[/quote]
Performance evaluations are not clinical evaluations. Unapproved RoTs would be first-class rule-breaking and Knight-Commander Gregoir could handle disipline in that situation as he saw fit.

[quote]I've never heard that. Do you happen to have something to support that?[/quote][quote]I've never heard these either. I would, however, not take Cullen's statement for the Mage execution to mean he agrees with it. Now it is you who are reading too much into the lines. He is saying he understands why the Knight-Commander likes Hawke for his views. That does not mean he agrees with it. It means he sees why the Knight-Commander likes/respects Hawke. As for Samson, I've seen a video where Cullen does not say anything of the sort -- and didn't on my one pro-Templar playthrough many moons ago -- and in fact is supportive of Samson being reinstated. So where did you get the idea that Samson is executed?[/quote]
His tone indicates otherwise, but if that isn't evidence enough, he tells his men to take Samson to be executed along with the rebel Mages. And Hawke must reccomend the survivors be executed for his aggressive dialogue to initiate.

[quote]Given how Karras will attack Hawke simply for Hawke saying that he's a friend of Thrask's, I'd say that constitutes over-zealous. Along with Karras' comments later on of how "The robes will get what's coming to them" when he talks about Meredith appealing to the Divine for an RoA.[/quote]
Hawke would be a friend of Thrask's whom is intentionally interfering in Templar business. And if Karras believes the Mages are using blood magic within the Circle, his statement regarding the RoA is not very outstanding for a Templar.

[quote]As I said, in either the Mage Origin or Witch Hunt -- I'm leaning more towards the former -- there is a children's book that downplays the threat Demons pose to Mages.[/quote]
Don't think I've ever seen this book.

[quote]Based upon my recollection of Jowan, I retract my statement about failure to teach the Mages about Demons. I still, however, maintain the notion that the Circle's method of teaching child Mages is a bit... silly.[/quote]
You don't know how it is taught to children in the Circle.

[quote]I do not deny that. I don't think it's the only way though -- indeed, the Dalish way of training has worked well enough, despite the fact that Abominations still happen.[/quote]
I doubt the Chantry will abandon their method for a Dalish and Elvhen one.

[quote]Again, controlling their magic. Controlling their magic is a broad notion, ranging from actual self-control to use in other aspects.[/quote]
That was not the claim. You claimed Mages are taught to control magic not cultivate or exercise magical skill through the wording of that sentence. Your intent and criticism was clear.

[quote]I am not "misrepresenting" her words and intent. I'm speaking regarding the facts of Kirkwall. She believes they're behind the unrest in Kirkwall -- her exact words being "They are likely behind the unrest here". I said it's an understandable assumption, but that doesn't change how it's wrong because the Resolutionists aren't behind the unrest in Kirkwall as Act 3 proves to us. It's an understandable thing to believe, but that does not make it right. Yes, they are a part of the problem. I neversaid otherwise. I've consistently maintained that they were exacerbating the problems of Kirkwall by their actions, but they are not the root cause of it. Saying "likely behind the unrest" indicates that she believes them to be the root cause of Kirkwall's problems.[/quote]
Why are you juding Leliana for that statement? She has just begun her investigation when Hawke meets her during Faith. You are juding her hypothesis incorrect based on information she does not have the minute after being attacked by their group in a Chantry. And "Likely" is not a determination. The word leaves room for doubt.

[quote]In fact, she solidifies this notion by saying that the Divine believes it as well and that the attack proves she's right in believing the Resolutionists are the likely masterminds behind the chaos in Kirkwall. They are not the ones behind the unrest. They are not the masterminds. They are part of the problem and are making things worse, but they are not the root cause of the problems in Kirkwall.[/quote]
No, Leliana states that the Divine has believed an outside force has been manipulating events in Kirkwall and that the attack proves her correct. She does not state the Divine specifically believed the Resolutionists were behind unrest in the City.

[quote]Nowhere in there did I state she gives them complete blame. Earlier, yes. But I eventually retracted that.[/quote]
You are largely still working from that assumption. You now argue she should known better about something she was still investigating.

[quote]Please understand that saying "She believes" does not point to me saying she said they are definitely the main cause, but that she thinks they are. There's a difference.[/quote]
You interpret Leliana's intent-- her use of the word "likely" to mean she believes they are the main cause. However, to state that something is likely does not confirm belief or knowledge of something to be true. "She believes... points to she thinks they are". You are stating that Leliana assumes their guilt in a very roundabout manner.

[quote]Is there proof that Ser Agatha was picked by Meredith, or is this a conclusion you draw simply because they operate on the same assignment which isn't the same as the assignment a pro-Mage Hawke deals with? You're assuming she's part of that death squad without anything to back it up, whereas we know for a fact that Ser Mettin and his cronies were. We do not know if Ser Agatha was, but given how the game says Meredith "hand-picked zealots" for the death squad and Agatha is a moderate, I'd say she is not a part of the death squad, despite what you would like to believe. [/quote]
You're using the Pro-Mage alternative version of The Last Holdouts to tell me that Ser Agatha wasn't working with equal authority? She wasn't even in the Pro-Mage version. Yes, Ser Agatha was also chosen by Meredith to handle the fugitive blood mages. You talk to both Ser Mettin and Ser Agatha as leaders of the raids in the Hanged Man to initiate the mission as a Pro-Templar Hawke.

[quote]And death squads are often used by totalitarian states, dictatorships, and the like. The one in game makes it a point to clarify that they are pursuing not just Mages, but people that sympathize with Mages as well. So yes, this death squad is killing the populus. Assisting a rogue Mage is not grounds for execution, per Chantry law. It's illegal, but it is not grounds for execution.[/quote][quote]Mage-sympathizers. It flat out states that they're ordered to "purge" Mage-sympathizers. I can determine her intent further, because it tells us what they were ordered to do.[/quote]
That is the Pro-Mage version of the mission in Lowtown. The Pro-Templar version states nothing but to eliminate the fugitive blood mages.

[quote]Why do you call them blood mages? They were simply Mages. It's never stated anywhere that the Mage being hidden by the woman Ser Mettin was about to kill was a blood mage.[/quote]
Because they are. You continue to cite the Pro-Mage version of that mission when the discussion pertains to the Pro-Templar version. Ser Mettin and Ser Agatha are hunting blood mages.

[quote]And the Tranquil states that the Templars beat her. The Mage scared of the Templars tells us that she gets whipped and lashed by them. So yes, I do have an idea of what the Tranquil and the Mages were discussing. Because they actually say the Templars do these things. I'm sorry, but if I can hear beatings going on, hear about the Templars committing said beatings, and hear a woman whose cousin was beaten pleading for her life simply for giving... then I'm sure as hell going to think the Templars are abusing their charges.[/quote]
You're making the assumption the blood mages were beaten and starved and determining that as their reason for leaving the Circle. There is no evidence of that.

[quote] I'm finding it hard to maintain this discussion with you, because you're tossing out anything that makes the Templars of Kirkwall seem like the douchebags they are.[/quote]
That's a very biased statement.

[quote]Death squads? Oh they're not bad people, despite the game saying they're killing mage-sympathizers and were authorized by Meredith. Beatings? Nope, they aren't being done by the Templars, despite the game actually saying the Templars are doing it.[/quote]
Use evidence to support your specific arguments. Don't make sweeping generalizations. That's all you have to do.

[quote]Perhaps, but the Chantry runs the asylum Bartrand is sent to -- if he was spared. So unless the records of it were in Kirkwall's Chantry -- likely -- there'd be records of Bartrand being there and clearly having lost his mind, which corroborates Varric's testimony on the matter. At any rate, it's not pertinent to our discussion really, so apologies for bringing it up.[/quote]
Interrogators must cross-examine unfriendly witnesses. It's just part of the job.

[quote]the presence of the death squads[/quote][quote]the fact that the populus is opposing Meredith[/quote][quote]the informal appeal to the Divine which could be taken to mean she's ignoring the orders of the woman in Kirkwall with more authority then her.[/quote]
I've addressed these unsubstantiated claims before and no-- submitting an informal appeal to the Divine does not mean Meredith is ignoring or is crazily intent on defying Elthina. Anyone who has ever filed a case in an appellate court is a disturbed malcontent that needs to be watched if that is the standard. To ignore Elthina would have been to invoke the RoA after her denial of it.

[quote]No, you are twisting my words so you can relate them to other portions of my post. However, I am also at fault -- more so, perhaps -- for failing to make clear a separation between what is related to what I'm saying and what is separate.[/quote]
No, this is what you wrote about Faith and Leliana: "If Leliana did a thorough investigation -- and that's a huge "if" -- then after the RoA the pieces would obviously have become crystal clear. The Seekers and Leliana would know that the Knight-Commander's reign was the true source of the conflict -- causing the chaos she saw everywhere and used to justify further tyranny -- and that the Resolutionists were exacerbating the conflict. Really, this goes back to what the devs have admitted. That they did not do Act 3 as well as they wanted because they were rushed trying to get DAII out the door."

I did not twist words. You make a "cause and effect" statement claming Leliana did not investigate sufficiently and that her inaction was a result of Bioware's DA2 deadline.

[quote]Now, what I actually meant was that Bioware admitted that Act 3 was not "ideal" and that they were rushed to get it out the door. I did not state that Leliana's Faith quest was directly affected by that.[/quote]
"...Really, this goes back to what the devs have admitted. That they did not do Act 3 as well as they wanted because they were rushed trying to get DAII out the door."

[quote]Had Bioware done a more ideal Act 3, Faith would've fit much better in the grand scheme of things. I did not say Faith was not written how Bioware wanted. I said Act 3 was not what they would call ideal because it was railroad-y due to them being rushed out the door, which as a side-effect hurt Faith.[/quote]
No, the "railroad effect" was simply a by-product of the storytelling format Bioware chose. Building toward a conclusion the framed narrative dictated was their intent. The game was designed in a specific manner, but the effect it elicited from some of the fanbase was not the intended or ideal effect.

[quote]I would take what Mike said and what David Gaider said -- Act 3 being not ideal, that they'd give it more reactivity, that they were rushed to get it out the door, and that they would like more sane mages -- that Best Served Cold factors into that. Certainly, I would think Harvestino factors into it as well, as that was an instance of gameplay trumping story, as David Gaider said in the past.[/quote]
Again, hindsight is always twenty-twenty. Bioware could state that about every game, every mission they've ever written.

[quote]Technically, it's a misfortune only for the noble that was assisting with the Qunari conflict. Hawke wasn't Champion then, and had he been Champion then Leandra might not have died because he would've had pull with the Templars and nobles. So to say "Not even the Champion is able to stay unaffected by them" is not accurate, because he wasn't Champion then.[/quote]
It doesn't matter when it happens to him. When Meredith uses the information agaisnt him, he is the Champion. He enjoys visibility, and he has twice been burned by blood mages. It's PR 101.

[quote]And yet Quentin going as far as he did can be attributed back to the Templars failing to investigate Quentin -- something that Hawke should be able to counter her with. Manipulating PR only works if it can't backfire in your face.[/quote]
No. Quentin is not a failing of the Templars.

[quote]The third one: Meredith being stricter then most. That's what we're told in-game. We're told that Meredith and the Templars she's recruited over the years are less Mage-friendly. Since she took power, things that were normally flexible to the Templars under Knight-Commander Guylian have been taken to mean something that gives Mages less rights. The number of Templars certainly factors into the third one, as Tobrius states that in Kirkwall -- the place he's been in his whole life as a Mage -- there are fewer and fewer Templars like Ser Maarevar Carver.[/quote]
Meredith can run the Gallows how she determines fit. Each Knight-Commander is allowed to run the Circle of Magi as determined necessary. You can disagree with her strictness, but it is her right to rule the Circle in such a manner. And the Mages actively use the backdrop of the Gallows and the large number of Templars housed within it to elicit sympathy from Kirkwall's citizens. They also always attempt to downplay the number of vicious Mage crimes committed in the City.

[quote]Tobrius.[/quote]
A Mage, then.

[quote]Ah, so if you're being abused and you want to fight back, you're the one who's at fault? If you're treated like a beast and you start to act like one because that's who you've become, you're at fault? Sorry, but that logic doesn't fly with me.[/quote]
An aposate hiding from the Chantry isn't being abused. Most Mages in the Circle are not abused. A Templar hunting a Mage-- especially a blood mage, demon consort-- is simply doing his job.

[quote]Apostates are to be brought to the Circle.[/quote]
Blood mages and maleficar are not brought to the Circle.

[quote]As we see in DAII, the Templars of Kirkwall -- save for the minority of fair ones -- operate on the premise of "strike first, sort it out later". Along with the rampant abuse that goes on inside the Circle. Beatings, starvation, illegal RoTs being performed, Templars not being supervised like they should be, etc.[/quote]
The renegades do those things. But it can't be proven the majority of the Templars starve, beat, or illegally Tranqil Mages-- or that Meredith condones such behavior if discovered.

[quote]Agree to disagree. That's basically what we've been doing for this entire tangent anyway. You need not agree with what I put forth as headcanon. That's the whole point of it. You can believe what you want, I can believe what I want.[/quote]
No, it supports the argument for annulment, and you can't refute it. I won't agree to disagree.

[quote]Resurrection. His dialogue frickin' supports that was his goal. Yes, it failed. Yes, it was never going to work because it was being done in a demented fashion that had absolutely no link to bringing an actual soul back to life.[/quote][quote]He was trying to, in a demented way that obviously wasn't going to work. To him, he was resurrecting his wife. That's my point. He wasn't actually doing it, but to him he was.[/quote]
"He wasn't actually doing it." "Yes, it was never going to work." "... had absolutely no link to bring an acutual soul back to life." Thanks. Orsino is the First Enchanter. He is a smart and talented Mage. He had to recognize the difference. He has no business being an Enchanter if he can't.

[quote]There is absolutely nothing to point to Orsino being all giddy about a ritual that's a one-way trip to damnation because it's irreversible.[/quote]
If he thought the ritual would stop Meredith or save the lives of the Mages under his leadership, he would be excited and endorse it. He did, after all. He doesn't have to be "giddy" about becoming a monster, however.

[quote]He cast it aside up until that point [...][/quote]
So he didn't cast it aside.

[quote]What? It's an irreversible spell that consists of the transmutation of flesh and demonic possession. You can't perform a test trial. You can't come back from doing a test trial. [/quote]
Re-read the statement I made. "His [Quentin's] extensive research into blood-magic and necromancy allowed him and Orsino to investigate the limits of the magics and investigate a theoretical transformation. It is likely Orsino had to perform the test trial himself, and he had only one shot at casting the ritual correctly." That "one shot" would be the end-game Act 3 Harvester transformation.

[quote]So death is a reward then? I'm sorry, but it is a punishment.[/quote]
No, it's not a punishment, nor is it a reward. It's simply a necessary action in Meredith's view.

[quote]No proof exists that it was ever given to her. The books on necromancy possibly because Aveline says they should be handed to them. The letter itself, no.[/quote]
The Templars can search Quentin's underground hovel. He's squatting. And Hawke didn't destroy the evidence.

[quote]You don't coddle a mob. Never. That makes them grow bolder and weakens the authority you do have. And I refer you to my post earlier -- the one where I went "GAH!! Damnation!" And yes, it is black and white in DAII.[/quote][quote]Actually, he does speak up for his charges. Many times.[/quote]
You don't fight your citizens, either. That's political suicide, and the Mages are not citizens of Kirkwall.

[quote]Because Meredith's a loony by Act 3, certainly.[/quote]
This is my consistent issue with your posts. You've already made a determination on Meredith's character, and you won't hear any argument against that opinion I feel like I'm wasting my time.

[quote]She would've called for it had Orsino done that. But then it'd damn her instead of him, as he's voluntarily handing himself over knowing what fate awaits him. That he's willing to submit to justice to keep his charges safe means that the Circle isn't as corrupt as Meredith would like to think -- especially if when he cast it aside, it was locked away someplace that only he could access.[/quote]
Orsino never did those things, and there is no indication he was planning to. He had over three years to take the blame-- to do something-- and he didn't.

[quote]I'm free to assume what I want. You cannot tell me what to assume in a game that I am playing. That's the equivalent of "You're playing this game wrong".[/quote]
Then don't use headcannon to prop up a rose-tintned character analysis. Strictly use evidence.

[quote]There is no indication that Orsino was always with Meredith. And yes, I know hunting apostates is the duty of a Templar. Hence why I said he was out there secretly doing it. And yes, he could gather a secret group of Mages -- particularly if Bethany's in the Circle. Bethany and Orsino are good friends in the Circle -- or at least respect each other greatly -- and exemplary Mages themselves. If he did go there with that purpose in mind -- like my headcanon believes -- then he could've picked Mages that he could trust and could've lied to Meredith if she asked about where he was going.[/quote]
There is no evidence of any of this. Not even a hint or iota.

[quote]Though given how you've said she doesn't handle Templar daily matters earlier in the thread, I don't see why you think she'd start doing her job here.[/quote]
Overseeing and guiding policy and its execution is a far more important task than being a drone that relays orders said policy has decided. The leader of an organization has the most important job of all-- and Meredith is always doing her job.

[quote]And based on your posts, I would think your headcanon for this particular thing -- were you to subscribe to aspects of my headcanon -- would be the following: Orsino went out there looking for Quentin in secret, lied to Meredith, didn't fool her, and that was part of why Meredith started cracking down on the Circle later on.[/quote]
I don't subscribe to your headcannon, or to any other. I only analyze evidence and make judgments on clear hints and facts. I don't fill in blanks with baseless assumption. There is no evidence to suggest Orsino was looking for Quentin in Hightown, so I would never arrive at the conclusion you have, or anywhere near it.

[quote]So then pick which Mages can study demonology. Mages like Wynne, Irving, and Morrigan who are capable of resisting a Demon's attempts at possession. And have multiple Mages go into the Fade consciously in the same area -- though on a new trip to the Fade, that area would have changed. There are only two types of Demons that can forcibly possess a Mage: Desire and Pride. And that's through mind control. All the others would require a willing agreement. And Mages like Wynne are not liable to be party to a lesser Demon's subtle manipulations. Wynne, however, is not immune to being mind controlled into believing an illusion -- which if we were to look at the Sloth Demon's realm, has Desire Demons.[/quote]
Wynne became an abomination against her will-- a spirit possesed her. It's a grey area but it is doubtful the Chantry would recognize the difference.

[quote]And Mages suffer for it, having no new knowledge to defend themselves from Demons with. As we see from Torpor's comments, the arcane is eternal in the Fade. Eventually, Demons will wise up.[/quote]
The Chantry won't help the Mages help themselves unless there is a big benefit the church can hope to reap from doing so. The risk of demonology is too great to their authority and leash on the Circle.

[quote]Okay... you bring up Christianity why? I said that word of God stated that Demons prefer to subtly manipulate people, as I recall.[/quote]
There is no God in Dragon Age. Just use David Gaider's name. It will limit confusion.

[quote]And per the lore, Demons of Desire and Pride can resort to mind control, though they do not like to resort to it as their first measure -- they do it as a last resort, if anything. I never said they do so regularly. They can however, as the lore on Desire Demons and Pride Demons clearly states. Allure in Sebastian's Act 2 quest says she could if she wanted to, but went the easier route of manipulating Lady Harrimann's desire for power. Because a room full of Templars can't handle an Abomination that fights like a drunken brute? Their armor is specifically made to resist an Abomination's claws.[/quote]
What is this tangent? What purpose does it serve?

[quote]I said it will thin the Veil even further. And it's true. The more death that occurs in any one place, the thinner the Veil gets. This is talked about in many places. The Bone Pit, the Circles, Kirkwall, Soldier's Peak, etc.[/quote]
But you don't know that the Veil will tear.

[quote]No, but given how the game spans seven years and we see nothing of Mages working to repair the Veil in its weakest parts, or Templars remarking on how it might be contributing to the Demons and Abominations present, or even a codex talking about the Veil being strengthened in the ensuing years by the Band of Three, I'd say they don't sense it period. Supported by Elthina being unaware of the Veil being thin, because certainly if her Templars could sense it and the Mages could sense it, she'd be told that the Veil is thin and that they should work on fixing it.[/quote]
Not talking about it is not the same as not sensing it-- considering you stated all Templars and Mages can. "The Veil is Thin" is not that important to the overall main story of DA2. It doesn't require much attention to delineate the Mage-Templar tension. Working on the Veil would side-track the entire campaign and lose drama and desired effects.

[quote]Sundermount, during Merrill's Act 1, 2, and 3 quest. The quest dealing with Hybris has powerful demons that were bound summoning more demons into possessed corpses. The Bone Pit, where you can go on a few quests dealing with corpses. The Hidden Thaig off of Sundermount in both Act 2 and 3. Anders Act 2 quest in a passage from Kirkwall to the Gallows, with no Mages in sight. And others still. The Veil is thin in the Bone Pit, Sundermount, Kirkwall, and possibly even the Wounded Coast itself. All of these areas suffer from a thin Veil, made thinner by the amount of blood spilled in any area.[/quote]
No, those examples do not illustrate demons freely crossing the Veil. Sundermount is the site of a large ancient battle between the Tevinter Imperium and the Elvhen. Both factions summoned demons that still haunt the coast during the Dragon Age. Those nations are to blame for the shades and other evil creatures.

[quote]Larius states what an ancient Warden also said, as the thoughts the ancient Warden were thinking about were not his own but those of Corypheus' implanted in him. And that ancient Warden killed himself after he penned his thoughts down to prevent Corypheus from using him further.[/quote]
I don't care. Speculations on Kirkwall is an objective journal entry. Whoever wrote it seems to be connecting more of the dots than the mind-controlled Wardens.

[quote]Larius isn't the only one to state it. And why would Bioware not put it in there to trick us into believing it? Why do you believe they wouldn't do that? Not every codex is going to be right. Are all historians and scholars in our world right? Why would Thedas be any different?[/quote]
Because there would be no point writing it. It would just be a waste of time and resources.

[quote]Now, for the codex entry that tells us Corypheus influences beings that bear the Taint. [...] Add into this the fact that if Corypheus could affect beings that weren't tainted, he'd have no reason to not try and control Malcolm Hawke when Malcolm had the Key in hand.[/quote]
No, I did not theorize Corypheus utilized a direct control method for untainted individuals. I theorized something entirely different. It was on Kirkwall-- About his affect on the Veil over the City.

[quote]It's never stated that Corypheus is the reason for why the seals weaken. In fact, Janeka states that the magic just weakens on its own.[/quote]"Corypheus is too powerful. Nothing will hold him forever. The seals are already weakening. We must find a way to fortify them, and soon." The wording of this entry suggests his power presense alone is causing the seals to weaken.

[quote]It is unreasonable to give it credence when Larius and the ancient Warden Mage Erasmus both state that Corypheus has an affect on beings that bear the Taint.[/quote]
But their statement does not prohibit an affect on the Veil-- and thus an indirect affect on Kirkwall's Mages throughout the ages.

[quote]Thedas does not require search warrants. It is not the United States of America.[/quote]
[quote]1) Thedas is not the US regarding search warrants. Thedas does not have a law requiring search warrants to investigate any place. If it did, Aveline wouldn't be able to investigate the DuPuis mansion a second time. 2) It's called an Abandoned Foundry. It's not private property. It's a derelict foundry, abandoned with no official owner.[/quote]
The Foundry isn't abandoned. It's dark because it is investigated at night. And informal search warrants. The Templars don't have the jurisdiction to raid private property-- the Order regularly raid the alienage, but no one cares because it elves. The Foundry likely belongs to a Hightown Noble that doesn't want a Templar investigation on his hands-- and Meredith could lose support among the Nobility if she proceeds without consent. The warehouses at the Docks have owners. Woodrow's Warehouse, for example-- a Hightown merchant owns it-- and he staffs it with a guard. The Foundry should have a high-placed owner too.

[quote]For his own inaction. Failing to convince Aveline that a place where Demons were summoned -- that she may have witnessed -- is a failing on his own part.[/quote]
Why does Hawke have to tell Aveline how to do her job? She has the evidence she needs and the authority to call for an investigation. She had what she needed to proceed-- that's her fault. She also could have accompanied Hawke to the scene. Really, what else is he supposed to do?

[quote]Failing to inform his mother of the fact that the White Lily Killer of Kirkwall uses... white lilies and kills women of noble lineage with few social ties to the area is a failing on his own part.[/quote]
And Leandra couldn't have heard about this already? Years ago even? And it has been years for Hawke. He should remember such an obsure detail?

[quote]Failing to ask Aveline why she has to hear Gascard's testimony again before she launches the investigation again -- instead, waiting until Emeric is dead -- is a failing on his own part as well as a failure on Aveline's part for displaying idiocy.[/quote]
That's Aveline's fault entirely.

[quote]I mean really, Hawke goes "Why can't you just tell the City Guard this?" and Aveline doesn't say "No need. I've heard it all". She just goes "Yeah.... can't you?". The worst part is that Bioware wanted to make her a woman that kept Kirkwall safe -- in her codexes, it's said Kirkwall has been safer with her in charge. And yet.... I don't see it in-game. I see a failure of a Guard-Captain who was desired by Bioware to be good at her job.[/quote]
Pick that bone with Bioware. But, who knows. The City Guard is always stretched thin-- and solving a random murder with no identifiable suspect or leads just isn't high on her list of priorities.

[quote]Hawke looks in the direction of the Mage, so we can assume he got a brief glimpse.[/quote][quote]Gray hair, balding. It's not too much of a leap.[/quote]
You're still assuming Hawke saw that. Doesn't look like he saw anything from the camera angle, however.

[quote]What, the Templars can't inform the populus that there's a rogue Mage out there who summoned demons and cut off a woman's limbs and for them to inform the City Guard or Templars of anyone acting suspicious?[/quote]
They may have. It could work in conjuction with greater oversight. It doesn't mean that doing so will automatically lead to anything, however.

[quote]The Templars can't send some of their men to help the City Guard with patrols?[/quote]
The Templars can do their own patrols in Lowtown. They don't have to help the City-Guard.

[quote]Kirkwall was fine under her predecessor.[/quote]
But Meredith was better for Chantry supremacy. That's all it is.

[quote]I've seen her run it straight into the ground since she's been Knight-Commander.[/quote]
You dislike her control of the City, but that doesn't mean she's running it into the ground. If she withdrew military support, Kirkwall would burn or, be captured by another City-State.

[quote]There are very few things she's done I'll defend. One being the Ellis Island type thing she did with the Gallows in the prologue. But she should never have been politically involved. Ever. [/quote]
The entire agenda of the Chantry is political power and control. She is a symbol of Chantry and Templar Order aspiriation.

[quote]And now I'm considering just dropping this conversation right now. That you would resort to implying I'm being a sexist pig offends me. It has nothing to do with her being a woman. It has to do with my perception of her job as Knight-Commander. I find Anora to be a much more capable politician then Meredith.[/quote]
It's a fair question. I've only seen you call her and Elthina idiots or incompetent-- even though they've been doing their jobs-- high ranking and pivitol jobs-- for decades. And both of them are women. You continue to agrue Meredith was completely insane at the advent of Act 3. That she can't reason. That her emotions and hatred have overcome her. That she had no will to resist the Lyrium Idol. It's a bit sterotypical.

[quote]I don't fume when people insult Merrill. Not initially.[/quote]
That Blood Magic thread in the DA3 forum indicated otherwise when I read through it.

[quote]Because they can't possibly ask him for indirect assistance, can they? They can't possibly send him a missive written in a cypher that asks them for assistance?[/quote]
Suspicious evidence that could be found and investigated, even by chance. Orsino's office is directly across from Meredith's.

[quote]Asking him to see if he can aid them -- preferably by getting the Champion to assist them -- without going to them himself, because since he's the First Enchanter it would attract too much attention were he to disappear for a few days?[/quote]
And now the entire Circle is on the hook for conspiracy.

[quote]After posting that, I had watched a video of Meredith during Best Served Cold. Yes, it was from her PoV, and I apologize for implying you were saying Orsino was bad. However, if Orsino was willing to bring a matter of Templar abuse to her attention -- especially if he was unsure if she had authorized it behind his back -- she should be willing to do the same for him concerning Mages and Templars sneaking out at night.[/quote]
No, she doesn't have to because she has the authority in that relationship. Orsino has to go to Meredith because she is his superior. Within the Circle, Meredith has no superior. She doesn't have to ask Orsino about anything.

[quote]It just didn't strike me as... credible.[/quote]
These kind of stories are told all the time. And a refugee from Lothering orchestrating the coup of the century wouldn't strike me as credible. It's a matter of taste.

[quote]I do not think he's entirely spineless personally. It's the opinion of someone working in the Viscount's Keep who thought Perrin Threnhold was a good man trying to make Kirkwall have solemn autonomy over itself. No Orlesians, Qunari, or even Templars could bully Kirkwall into doing what served their interests.[/quote]
I don't know that Perrin Threnhold was a good man. Though he agreed with his goal to oust the Templar Order, Seneschal Bran states he was a tyrant. But it just can't happen. The Templars were too strong then, and during Dumar's reign, they're even stronger under Meredith.

[quote]Or even a Mage Hawke. But a pro-Templar Hawke is shot down, even if a pro-Templar Hawke isn't a Mage at all.[/quote]
I think it goes without saying she wouldn't allow a Mage Hawke to rule. But, Hawke is too much of a risk to take a chance on. He's too much of a force-to-be-recokoned-with. He could get in her way in the long-run.

[quote]Which could easily be turned against her.[/quote]
She brings it up quite a few times and its never turned against her. Hawke just plays the, "That's a low blow!" card.

[quote]He wouldn't enjoy being a Templar, leading the rest of the Order of Kirkwall down the path that best serves the interests of the Order and the Mages? I very much doubt he'd be down in the dumps about that.[/quote]
No, he wouldn't enjoy being a Templar when being head of the Order is about holding political office and not at all about being a Templar except when it's convient or necessary. Being an operational Templar would become a secondary task.

[quote]But Elthina could present a counterargument that one need not be part of the state to spread the Chant of Light. Indeed, history has supported this. The Wardens helped spread the Chant at one time, but they weren't involved politically in the affairs of the realm in the sense that they were the state.[/quote]
Why would she? The Chantry is entirely dedicated to political supremacy. The Chantry wants to rule Thedas.

[quote]I think that Callista's plan would show them how it's a dangerous prospect.[/quote]
But it's just an assumption. I'm not necessarily juding it as wrong to hold-- I just analyze it and determine it's validity in this debate.

[quote]When did I suggest the Templars would be removed completely? I simply said they would not be involved politically. I never said they wouldn't be there.[/quote]
No one is going to let you use their army without getting something in return.

[quote]I don't think she knew Alistair was a bastard prince. I think she was just against the idea of Templar secrets spilling out of the Chantry's control, something Alistair notes is a thing the Chantry takes issue with.[/quote]
I think she did know. The Chantry is too smart to not uncover the secret of his birth. And the Templars already have their secrects all over Thedas. Alistair didn't spread rumors about lyrium use in Kirkwall, for example. There are ex-Templars everywhere. Alistar didn't even get very far into the training. And he's a complete jokester-- a headache even. He was important to the Grand Cleric for one reason only.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:48 .

[TEWR]

I'll respond to your post on the morrow or the day after. Now, my hand is preventing me from typing a long post. However...

The Foundry isn't abandoned.

It is. The map for it as well as the entrance says Abandoned Foundry

[Shadow Fox]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I have to agree with one point that's been raised: Hawke most certainly is at fault for being too passive.

One of the big examples I saw was at the beginning of Act 3 when Anders described the destruction of the Mage Railroad. What exactly had Hawke been doing all that time? Why wasn't he out in the alleyways every night slaughtering Templar patrols? Why had he failed to make the Templars' laws unenforceable?

Why is it that during Best Served Cold he simply lets Cullen make an arrest rather than taking the opportunity to put down another group of Loyalist Templars? Why does he fail to challenge Meredith directly until after she goes crazy?

Honestly, this was one of the problems with the game. It asked me a question about what was the right way of dealing with the conflict at hand and then refused to let me give my answer of 'kill all Templars'. I simply couldn't make Hawke as fanatical as I wanted to.

Probably to account for the fact that Hawke might still have living family thus they might not what the Templars to target them that or Hawke contray to popular belief isn't a suicidal moron?

[SeptimusMagistos]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I have to agree with one point that's been raised: Hawke most certainly is at fault for being too passive.

One of the big examples I saw was at the beginning of Act 3 when Anders described the destruction of the Mage Railroad. What exactly had Hawke been doing all that time? Why wasn't he out in the alleyways every night slaughtering Templar patrols? Why had he failed to make the Templars' laws unenforceable?

Why is it that during Best Served Cold he simply lets Cullen make an arrest rather than taking the opportunity to put down another group of Loyalist Templars? Why does he fail to challenge Meredith directly until after she goes crazy?

Honestly, this was one of the problems with the game. It asked me a question about what was the right way of dealing with the conflict at hand and then refused to let me give my answer of 'kill all Templars'. I simply couldn't make Hawke as fanatical as I wanted to.

Probably to account for the fact that Hawke might still have living family thus they might not what the Templars to target them that or Hawke contray to popular belief isn't a suicidal moron?

Hey, they let me promise Anders that all Templars will die and take similar convesational options throughout the game, but I never get to put it into action. It's frustrating.

[Rinshikai10]

I guess I'll add one example that has come to mind recently. Wouldn't Thrask be a prime example of a hypocrite. He hides his daughter from the Circle yet seems to have not problem asking other parents to send them, there even knowing what they will face. This seems like quite the double standard in my view.