255 réponses à ce sujet

[Ownedbacon]

The whole Crucible plot is plain nonsensical.

Countless cycles add to a device not knowing what it does with the intent to stop the Reapers. In the end they have a device that seemlessly attaches to a Reaper made device and changes the Reaper leader/controller/collective
conciousness that no one ever knew existed. Not to mention the interface for activating this device is on the Reaper made Citadel.

One function for this fluke device is that grabbing some electrical components, disintegrating yourself you gain control of all sentient technology. Another function is activated by wrecking one of its components.  The final function is to jump into a beam disintegrate yourself and magically alter everything into a organic/synthetic DNA. Synthesis is also something that the Reapers/Catalyst or civilizations prior failed to accomplish. Apparently the beings that have developed/harvested the best technology the galaxy has ever seen, failed where desperate and limited cycles have succeeded.

How could cycles randomly adding to blueprints for a device end up surpassing the Reapers' technological abilities, but they still fail to stop/defeat them? Even better is how this device was the salvation of many cycles and wasn't mentioned in beacons in ME1 intended to give warning of the Reaper invasion.

EDIT: formatting

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:38 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

It worked. That's what counts.

[hiraeth]

 yeah, i was suspicious of the crucible the second it was formally introduced in the mission on mars:

Liara: I've discovered plans for a Prothean device, one that could wipe out the reapers.
Shepard: Here? On Mars? 
Liara: In the Prothean archives, yes.
Shepard: We've known about the Archives for decades. Why now?
Liara: Process of elimination, mixed with a little desperation.  When I got the data on the Alpha Relay incident, I knew I had to do something. Hacket knew it, too. I contacted him as an information broker, and we pooled our resources, looking for a way to stop the reapers. My search led me here. Hackett got me access to the Archives and kept me updated on your status...In any case, my work paid off. The Archives are full of data. An overwhelming amount. I think I found what we need.
Shepard: I guess I'll believe it when I see it. Where do we find this weapon?

and it's built to only have one function (destroy), but then ends up actually serving up to three functions depending on EMS. and the mechanics behind these three functions seem wildly different from each other (i.e., how can the same forces that drive synthesis also drive control or destroy?)   

[Reofeir]

For the beacon part, I assume they wanted it to be a hard to find secret so they can hide the fact they hid it from the reapers and allow future races to be able to build it, unlike how they failed to.

I'm going to assume that the past races that have tried building this device simply ran out of time, and this seems to be the case over and over. No matter how good you are at technology, having most of your army wiped out at the first attack and losing every battle will surely catch up to you, and you'll fail. We only won because our main fighting force wasn't destroyed instantly. We had time to prepare for other attacks and be able to even do a final push.

For adding onto the blueprints part, I would also guess that it IS truly a battery that involves using three pre-built functions.
Synthesis was a failed attempt that the catalyst tried once. Maybe it's using the remenents of what was left and giving it the power to be activated.
Destroy is simply destroying core functions.
Control? Control, despite being hinted at, seems to be the odd one. Could be explained in the citadel DLC.
Besides that, adding onto the blueprints for the crucible just made it easier, and possible, for the manipulation of core functions of the citadel to be used against the reapers.

[WhiteKnyght]

Ownedbacon wrote...

The whole Crucible plot is plain nonsensical.

Countless cycles add to a device not knowing what it does with the intent to stop the Reapers. In the end they have a device that seemlessly attaches to a Reaper made device and changes the Reaper leader/controller/collective
conciousness that no one ever knew existed. Not to mention the interface for activating this device is on the Reaper made Citadel.

One function for this fluke device is that grabbing some electrical components, disintegrating yourself you gain control of all sentient technology. Another function is activated by wrecking one of its components.  The final function is to jump into a beam disintegrate yourself and magically alter everything into a organic/synthetic DNA. Synthesis is also something that the Reapers/Catalyst or civilizations prior failed to accomplish. Apparently the beings that have developed/harvested the best technology the galaxy has ever seen, failed where desperate and limited cycles have succeeded.

How could cycles randomly adding to blueprints for a device end up surpassing the Reapers' technological abilities, but they still fail to stop/defeat them? Even better is how this device was the salvation of many cycles and wasn't mentioned in beacons in ME1 intended to give warning of the Reaper invasion.

EDIT: formatting

1. There is nothing said indicating that the past cycles did not know what it would do. Even Vendetta implied he knew what it would do because he was supposed to "interface with the Catalyst" and said that it turns the Reaper's resources against them.

2. Also mid-game the scientists already have an idea of what the Crucible does. That it is a massive energy source. They just didn't know how the energy would be released and focused. Which they assumed was the Catalyst's job.

So your points are moot.

[Fixers0]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It worked.

That's debatable, storytelling wise i would say: No!, as putting all your faith into construciting a device whose purpose and details remain unclear throughout the plot isn't very convincing way of storytelling.

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
That's what counts.

Can't agree with this, devices and other plot points need to developed and have a decent amount of exposition lest they become contrived and confusing within the narrative.

Modifié par Fixers0, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Reofeir]

Well to be honest, when a unbeaten foe comes and destoys earth and you have a possible bluepritn that can turn into a weapon and be used against the reapers...Well I would put faith into this. If I don't, what else can I do? The rest of the galaxy would never of bound together since they all thought Shepard was not speaking the truth or was just insane. Without them together, what else we gonna do? Spit at them? Well, we could make the reapers wet with jellyfish spit but I don't think that's enough to stop the reapers. Plus half way through we do know what it is, just how do we use it became the question till the end.

[Mcfly616]

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

[hiraeth]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. There is nothing said indicating that the past cycles did not know what it would do. Even Vendetta implied he knew what it would do because he was supposed to "interface with the Catalyst" and said that it turns the Reaper's resources against them.

2. Also mid-game the scientists already have an idea of what the Crucible does. That it is a massive energy source. They just didn't know how the energy would be released and focused. Which they assumed was the Catalyst's job.

So your points are moot.

These are good points, though it makes me wonder:

(1) Why the Crucible wasn't mentioned at all pre-ME3
(2) If the scientists would have continued to support building the Crucible if they knew that it had different ways to direct how the energy would be released/focused. This isn't relevant to the Crucible not making sense part, but it's my assumption that they're building the Crucible with the hopes that it destroys, not synthesizes or controls.

Modifié par MassEffectFShep, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:57 .

[hiraeth]

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

I mean the blueprints were sitting in the Mars archives. It's not like they were buried miles deep on some remote planet. I don't buy that the Crucible wasn't mentioned pre-ME3 because it was meant to be top-secret (and Liara implies that it's because they just weren't looking in the right place, not because it was difficult to find)

[What a Succulent Ass]

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

...This is probably the wackest defence I've read in months.

[Reofeir]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. There is nothing said indicating that the past cycles did not know what it would do. Even Vendetta implied he knew what it would do because he was supposed to "interface with the Catalyst" and said that it turns the Reaper's resources against them.

2. Also mid-game the scientists already have an idea of what the Crucible does. That it is a massive energy source. They just didn't know how the energy would be released and focused. Which they assumed was the Catalyst's job.

So your points are moot.

These are good points, though it makes me wonder:

(1) Why the Crucible wasn't mentioned at all pre-ME3
(2) If the scientists would have continued to support building the Crucible if they knew that it had different ways to direct how the energy would be released/focused. This isn't relevant to the Crucible not making sense part, but it's my assumption that they're building the Crucible with the hopes that it destroys, not synthesizes or controls.

1: Story reason, it was very well hidden...Actual reason it wasn't thought up yet during the development of ME1 or 2. I think LotSB hinted at Liara going to be looking for something? Other then that yeah. Sometimes new ideas come up and you just give a reason why it wasn't in the original.

2: If everyone knew about what the crucible can do, there would of been debate of which option they should use. Everyone would of picked destroy except for a few, as most hate synthetics or are afriad of them and would not care of the death of EDI and Geth. Only a few, like TIM, would want to use the other options. However, for all I know everyone could of been on board for synthesis. In the end, a choice would of been made.

[Ownedbacon]

Zenor wrote...
For adding onto the blueprints part, I would also guess that it IS truly a battery that involves using three pre-built functions.
Synthesis was a failed attempt that the catalyst tried once. Maybe it's using the remenents of what was left and giving it the power to be activated.
 

If the Catalyst had the resources built into the Citadel for synthesis and attempted it before but it failed, why not improve the experiment and try again? How do organics that are desperately using resources create a power source or device that is beyond what the Catalyst used for its attempts at synthesis?

[Reofeir]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

I mean the blueprints were sitting in the Mars archives. It's not like they were buried miles deep on some remote planet. I don't buy that the Crucible wasn't mentioned pre-ME3 because it was meant to be top-secret (and Liara implies that it's because they just weren't looking in the right place, not because it was difficult to find)

TIm even remarks on how it was sitting there and people did barley anything. With proper funding and knowing exactly what they want, a weapon against "Reapers", it was easier to find. It was probably well hidden fromt he reapers, as it wasn't anywhere else, but it the contents inside was probably easy to find once you spend enough time and effort looking for something specific. 

[Fixers0]

Zenor wrote...

Well to be honest, when a unbeaten foe comes and destoys earth and you have a possible bluepritn that can turn into a weapon and be used against the reapers...Well I would put faith into this.

Earth's importance's is secondary,and believing the crucible will defeat, espcially with it's rather curious backstory, i really just wishfull thinking.

Zenor wrote...
If I don't, what else can I do?

Conventional battling the Reapers, Researching the Klendagon weapon, handing out Thanix cannons, studying defeated Reapers.

Zenor wrote...
The rest of the galaxy would never of bound together since they all thought Shepard was not speaking the truth or was just insane. Without them together, what else we gonna do?

That has nothing to do with Crucible, but more with competant command, which seems to be lacking in Mass Effect 3.

Zenor wrote...
Plus half way through we do know what it is, just how do we use it became the question till the end.

But they weren't smart the enough that those giant docking clamps were ment to dock with a station the size of the citadel? do you really want me to believe this narative?

Modifié par Fixers0, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Reofeir]

Ownedbacon wrote...

Zenor wrote...
For adding onto the blueprints part, I would also guess that it IS truly a battery that involves using three pre-built functions.
Synthesis was a failed attempt that the catalyst tried once. Maybe it's using the remenents of what was left and giving it the power to be activated.
 

If the Catalyst had the resources built into the Citadel for synthesis and attempted it before but it failed, why not improve the experiment and try again? How do organics that are desperately using resources create a power source or device that is beyond what the Catalyst used for its attempts at synthesis?

Maybe it had to do with how the galaxy thought as a whole. Without using outside sources (multiplayer/apps) to gain EMS krogans had to be cured and the geth and qurians ended on a truce. Maybe we hit some point were the galaxy was somehow ready for synthesis to happen. He suggested it is something you cannot force (by force, I'm assuming that he means organics and synthetics unconsciously accepted it, not by asking everyone if they wanted it). Even with all the power in the world, it was a failed experiment at one point and it was useless to do it again, or perhaps he did do it multiple times and he just gave up. He just felt that this time it will work and thinks were ready and BAM, it worked. 

[drayfish]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It worked. That's what counts.

It works when Superman spins the Earth backwards to reverse time and bring Lois Lane back to life.

...So: 'Yay, arbitrary nonsense', I guess?

Modifié par drayfish, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Ownedbacon]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Ownedbacon wrote...

The whole Crucible plot is plain nonsensical.

Countless cycles add to a device not knowing what it does with the intent to stop the Reapers. In the end they have a device that seemlessly attaches to a Reaper made device and changes the Reaper leader/controller/collective
conciousness that no one ever knew existed. Not to mention the interface for activating this device is on the Reaper made Citadel.

One function for this fluke device is that grabbing some electrical components, disintegrating yourself you gain control of all sentient technology. Another function is activated by wrecking one of its components.  The final function is to jump into a beam disintegrate yourself and magically alter everything into a organic/synthetic DNA. Synthesis is also something that the Reapers/Catalyst or civilizations prior failed to accomplish. Apparently the beings that have developed/harvested the best technology the galaxy has ever seen, failed where desperate and limited cycles have succeeded.

How could cycles randomly adding to blueprints for a device end up surpassing the Reapers' technological abilities, but they still fail to stop/defeat them? Even better is how this device was the salvation of many cycles and wasn't mentioned in beacons in ME1 intended to give warning of the Reaper invasion.

EDIT: formatting

1. There is nothing said indicating that the past cycles did not know what it would do. Even Vendetta implied he knew what it would do because he was supposed to "interface with the Catalyst" and said that it turns the Reaper's resources against them.

2. Also mid-game the scientists already have an idea of what the Crucible does. That it is a massive energy source. They just didn't know how the energy would be released and focused. Which they assumed was the Catalyst's job.

So your points are moot.

Why didn't the past cycles make it more prominent what its purpose was for. Pre EC it is simply said that the Crucible changed the Catalyst created "new possibilities" so its implied that the Crucible gives it these functions. When it is said post EC that it is little more than a power source it is implied that is just giving the power to the functions. If the interface and the ability to create synthesis was already apart of the Citadel aside from a decent power source if attempted and failed why wasn't a better power source pursued by the Catalyst?

If no organic knew about the existence of the Catalyst how could they change it?

[Demon560]

My issues with it are how the Heck do you create a device that interacts with the Catalyst, if it's on a Citadel that's been captured, every cycle the Citadel is the center of each attack, and the keepers are supposed to keep anyone from finding out what the Citadel was.

Even if given time to study it, wouldn't the Catalyst notice this and just kill anyone that is close to finding out how it works. Not to mention, why leave all these catches of information behind, your an immortal AI whats a few centuries to completely purge any data that could possibly destroy you, what happened to self preservation, did it get overwritten by laziness or something.

Also how does everyone all of a sudden find it easy to build a device that's been handed down and modernized over who knows how long,last i checked the galaxy still had trouble translating Prothean data, and why is it that the Catalyst's locator VI has a safegaurd, yet plans for the Crucible are accessable now, without having to deal with security like Vendetta.

But i guess it's somewhat needed, how else can a galaxy that is ill-prepared hoped to defeat an enemy of such a magnitude, without a DEM. Though they probably could have gone a completely different and maybe better direction without it, or used something else to stop the reapers.

[Mcfly616]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

...This is probably the wackest defence I've read in months.

thanks for sharing your "opinion". Lol You don't have to accept the facts. Plenty of people live in denial. Because both are secrets. Obviously lol. And on the datapads, they say how they just never knew to look. TIM also criticizing the situation since the plans have been under their noses and the alliance squandered it. (Also, people seem to forget that the Reapers are largely believed to be a myth. Only very few people believe/accept the fact that they're actually real. So technically they're still a secret to most. Not much initiative to look for a way to defeat a mythical threat.....besides Shepard and few others)

Oh and Vigil had no way of knowing of neither the Catalyst or the Crucible. Seperate projects. Prothean Empire was divided and conquered, all communication was cut off.

I could care less about your opinion. Thems the facts dog.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[Reofeir]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zenor wrote...

Well to be honest, when a unbeaten foe comes and destoys earth and you have a possible bluepritn that can turn into a weapon and be used against the reapers...Well I would put faith into this.

Earth's importance's is secondary,and believing the crucible will defeat, espcially with it's rather curious backstory, i really just wishfull thinking.

Yes, earth itself is not truly important...well in the grand scale of things. However, it was coming to a point where two races have just been attacked, with one being destroyed completely. Earth showed how destructive they can be in just one day. At this point, you can guess VERY EASILY that since we were not prepared at all we are going to be wiped out pretty clearly. The turians fell quick too, and that was shortly after earth. Races only joined on the crucible project DUE to desperation. Once you realise that you can't do anything you latch onto the thing that even has a slight chance of working.

Zenor wrote...
If I don't, what else can I do?

Conventional battling the Reapers, Researching the Klendagon weapon, handing out Thanix cannons, studying defeated Reapers.
Klendragon weapon was that ultimate weapon of superior unknown power correct? Might of been powerful enough, yes, but it could of just as easily been destroyed after just killing one reaper. Seeing how many there are, I do not know if it could be as useful. All ships already have Thanix cannons, so that point is out the window. Studying defeated reapers would require a lot of time, and you need dead reapers. You also need time to develope a possible theory, prototype, and then the actual working thing. Sadly in that time you probably lost a lot of soldiers that could be used to deploy it and you probably lost this war by that time.

Zenor wrote...
The rest of the galaxy would never of bound together since they all thought Shepard was not speaking the truth or was just insane. Without them together, what else we gonna do?

That has nothing to do with Crucible, but more with competant command, which seems to be lacking in Mass Effect 3.
In ME2 people still tossed the whole reaper thing out the window after being shown proof. No one believed shepard in ME1 either. Seems to be a common thing.

Zenor wrote...
Plus half way through we do know what it is, just how do we use it became the question till the end.

But they weren't smart the enoug that those giant docking clamps were ment to dock with a station the size of the citadel? you really want me to believe this narative?

They followed the blueprint. Blueprint said build it like this, they built it like this. Once they found out it was the citadel, someone proabably realised that's where it is meant to go. 

[CmdrShep80]

Zenor wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. There is nothing said indicating that the past cycles did not know what it would do. Even Vendetta implied he knew what it would do because he was supposed to "interface with the Catalyst" and said that it turns the Reaper's resources against them.

2. Also mid-game the scientists already have an idea of what the Crucible does. That it is a massive energy source. They just didn't know how the energy would be released and focused. Which they assumed was the Catalyst's job.

So your points are moot.

These are good points, though it makes me wonder:

(1) Why the Crucible wasn't mentioned at all pre-ME3
(2) If the scientists would have continued to support building the Crucible if they knew that it had different ways to direct how the energy would be released/focused. This isn't relevant to the Crucible not making sense part, but it's my assumption that they're building the Crucible with the hopes that it destroys, not synthesizes or controls.

1: Story reason, it was very well hidden...Actual reason it wasn't thought up yet during the development of ME1 or 2. I think LotSB hinted at Liara going to be looking for something? Other then that yeah. Sometimes new ideas come up and you just give a reason why it wasn't in the original.

2: If everyone knew about what the crucible can do, there would of been debate of which option they should use. Everyone would of picked destroy except for a few, as most hate synthetics or are afriad of them and would not care of the death of EDI and Geth. Only a few, like TIM, would want to use the other options. However, for all I know everyone could of been on board for synthesis. In the end, a choice would of been made.

Don't forget the Council basically covered up anything related to the Reapers.  They just didn't want to know or just didn't care because a lot of the Reaper stories in ME 1 and 2 were just rumors, heresay, and just plain would cause them a vote in office.  It's like Area 51.  It's there, people say things landed yet the US says it's just a balloon with dummies attached

[The Twilight God]

Ownedbacon wrote...

The whole Crucible plot is plain nonsensical.

Countless cycles add to a device not knowing what it does with the intent to stop the Reapers. In the end they have a device that seemlessly attaches to a Reaper made device and changes the Reaper leader/controller/collective
conciousness that no one ever knew existed. Not to mention the interface for activating this device is on the Reaper made Citadel.

One function for this fluke device is that grabbing some electrical components, disintegrating yourself you gain control of all sentient technology. Another function is activated by wrecking one of its components.  The final function is to jump into a beam disintegrate yourself and magically alter everything into a organic/synthetic DNA. Synthesis is also something that the Reapers/Catalyst or civilizations prior failed to accomplish. Apparently the beings that have developed/harvested the best technology the galaxy has ever seen, failed where desperate and limited cycles have succeeded.

How could cycles randomly adding to blueprints for a device end up surpassing the Reapers' technological abilities, but they still fail to stop/defeat them? Even better is how this device was the salvation of many cycles and wasn't mentioned in beacons in ME1 intended to give warning of the Reaper invasion.

EDIT: formatting

You don't know that Control actually controls them. The Reapers simply tell you it can. Shepard's "Eternal. Immortal. Infinite" spiel shows that shepard is just as brainwashed as Soveriegn. So his "I wll..." speech is no better than TIM's "I will..." speech prior to dying. As TIM can attest, thinking your in control does not make it so. Why is there even a blast wave for control. If you replace the Intelligence and the Intelligence controls the reapers, shouldn't it just be instantaneous via quantum entanglement network? Why is Shepar in the REaper themselves vs being on the Citadel like it claims? Things don't add up. 

You don't know what synthesis really does. You only have the Reapers say so which doesn't exclude turing everyone into reapers. Everyone is connected to the Reapers and are indoctrinated. They don't cheer when the Reapers leave like the other endings, they have reaper nanites invading their brain, they don't seem to care about the changes forced on them and the only way for synthesis to work would be to give organics all the advantages of a synthetic... which would be turning them into sentient husks. If people can still be discontent, bored, etc. they'll still make robots to do the stuff they don't want to do and they'll still have the same conflicts assuming anything the Kid said is true. Synthesis cannot turn out well.

Each ending is in the present. the narrators are all speaking about what they hope, think or plan to make happen. None of them are in the future talking about what did happen. So really, it's still up in the air just like pre-EC. Just like Bioware said it would be. At no point is it ever stated that anything in the slideshow actually occurs. It is the players who presume they occur, but that is just conjecture. The narrator never directly addresses any of the picture which is why it isn't an epilogue.

I speculate that the Leviathans have something to do with the Crucible. Whe asked about it the Leviathan breaks eye contact in a most suspicious manner.

[Obadiah]

How many versions of those plans for the Crucible do you think the Protheans had?

I'm just thinking about plans for any device in our world. Something simple like a vacuum cleaner - there must be dozens of plans for a model before a company decides on the one to build and market. Without being able to read Prothean (and it looks like only Shepard can), how would anyone know the Crucible plans found was the working viable plan for it, and not one with some major design flaw that was... I dunno... archived because it was being peer reviewed or something?

Maybe the version in the Mars archives was the generic encyclopedia version of it - just a general sort of plan with dimensions and formulas on output?

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Eterna]

I'm curious, do you have a better story or plot occurrence that would allow the galaxy to defeat the Reapers?