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[Obadiah]

drayfish wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It worked. That's what counts.

It works when Superman spins the Earth backwards to reverse time and bring Lois Lane back to life.

...So: 'Yay, arbitrary nonsense', I guess?

They way I understood that scene - superman was actually flying so fast he went back in time, so the Earth looked like it was rotating in reverse. I mean... any other interpretation would be just ludicrous nonesense, right?

But then, of course, the special effects guys had to make him fly in the opposite direction to get the Earth spinning properly. Ah those *****.

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Fixers0]

Zenor wrote...
Yes, earth itself is not truly important...well in the grand scale of things. However, it was coming to a point where two races have just been attacked, with one being destroyed completely. Earth showed how destructive they can be in just one day. At this point, you can guess VERY EASILY that since we were not prepared at all we are going to be wiped out pretty clearly. The turians fell quick too, and that was shortly after earth. Races only joined on the crucible project DUE to desperation. Once you realise that you can't do anything you latch onto the thing that even has a slight chance of working.

Conventional victory and compatant tactics are our friends, the Crucible costs more then it delivers without knowledge of god-child, which wasn't presented at all within the narrative.

Zenor wrote...
Klendragon weapon was that ultimate weapon of superior unknown power correct? Might of been powerful enough, yes, but it could of just as easily been destroyed after just killing one reaper. Seeing how many there are, I do not know if it could be as useful. All ships already have Thanix cannons, so that point is out the window. Studying defeated reapers would require a lot of time, and you need dead reapers. You also need time to develope a possible theory, prototype, and then the actual working thing. Sadly in that time you probably lost a lot of soldiers that could be used to deploy it and you probably lost this war by that time.

No, Reaping takes time, Incompetant commanders make us lose our fleets in stupidly trying to defend their homeworld, rest is just speculation.

Besides why not distribute the Reaper IFF to other Warships, we know cerberus can, so why not us?

Zenor wrote...
In ME2 people still tossed the whole reaper thing out the window after being shown proof. No one believed shepard in ME1 either. Seems to be a common thing.

The Salarians and the Alliance were aware of the Reaper threat post- Battle of the Citadel, but then again incompetance.

Zenor wrote...
They followed the blueprint. Blueprint said build it like this, they built it like this. Once they found out it was the citadel, someone proabably realised that's where it is meant to go. 

If nobody can can figure how it works or even questions the giant docking clamps prior to Cronos station, then yes we can conclude that the various teams building this thing were literalily doing it blindfolded, Crucible is dumb and contrived and detail should be our friend.

[iDeevil]

Why haven't we humans figured Minoan Type A? Because we haven't found the Rosetta Stone.

Truth is archeology doesn't answer all the questions and in terms of the game, each race seemingly had a piece of the puzzle, they weren't all forthcoming so of course they wouldn't know everything.

And really just because Liara found the info for the Crucible on Mars doesn't mean that the people who were studying it even knew what they were seeing. Liara went there with a purpose, so she knew what she was looking for. She just had to find it.

[Ownedbacon]

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

I know they weren't foreshadowed because they were afterthought additions post ME2.

The Catalyst is stupid because it contradicts ME1. The writers made no effort to connect it to the events of ME1. Sovereign has absolutely no reason to be in the Milky Way. The Catalyst could have easily monitored organic life and opened the relay undetected by itself. It has control over the Citadel since it is a part of the Catalyst, yet the incompetent Reaper leader let the Protheans reprogram the Keepers. It also renders all Reapers Sovereign and Harbinger into pawns when there was more to them than that. The Human-Reaper plot is also made pointless by the Catalyst there was since there is no reason for Harbinger, or Harbingers experiments in making it prior to the invasion.

The Crucible is stupid because it is discovered in locations that were already looked over and Liara just goes there and looks extra hard and finds it. If they wanted a superweapon plot they should have had it stem from discoveries made about the Reapers from previous events in the story.

Modifié par Ownedbacon, 02 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Reofeir]

I'm very curious of what you claim to be good tactics are. I'm willing to listen, but I'm unsure at the point of ME3's begging with everyone didn't do anything to truly prepare for this, what do you do then?

If we don't protect civilians, then our races would fall quicker. If we do protect them, our military grows weaker.
We need time working on weapons, which we need time to work on, and a lot more time to even get something started. Also noting that manufacturing plants & any industrial zones are destroyed by reapers as if they were main targets before they even do anything. So, major production is dwindling. It takes time to make ships, ships we lose constantly everytime a reaper comes around. So by the time we make new ships, those ships replace the destroyed and are of lower quantity then before.
Men constantly killed and turned against us, reapers have a constant supply of ground troops.
Moral is also decreasing, as it will appear to most men that we are losing this battle after seeing everyone die day after day.

In my eyes it appears you're going to lose this war without something one way or the other. Do you have an idea of how to get around this huge problem? I'm curious.

[damoose1]

It reminds me of the device in the film Contact, in terms of how it was built. If you know the movie, you will understand. Makes sense to me. Easy to build something, without knowing what it does.

The design may be built by less sophisticated races than the Reapers, but it is the aggregate of millions of years of design and ingenuity. You also come up with great last minute ideas under pressure. Millions of these small ideas can build up into something super. Plus, the original design may have stemmed from the Leviathan race themselves before they were consumed. That provides a good foundation to come close to the Reapers tech, and explains why it works so well with that tech and how they knew about the AI etc. The reason they could built the crucible and still not have tech to defeat the reapers, is because what they were building, they did not understand and could not extrapolate the technology to specific weapons etc. Plus, as I mentioned, most of these design were made in haste and would take a while to filter through to be replicated functionally as weapons.

It may not have been mentioned in the beacons, as those beacons probably existed before the design was made aware to them, and the war prevented them from updating them all. The designs were on the archives on Mars, which are similar to the beacons anyway.

Just my quick thoughts on its plausibility.

[drayfish]

Obadiah wrote...

drayfish wrote...

It works when Superman spins the Earth backwards to reverse time and bring Lois Lane back to life.

...So: 'Yay, arbitrary nonsense', I guess?

They way I understood that scene - superman was actually flying so fast he went back in time, so the Earth looked like it was rotating in reverse. I mean... any other interpretation would be just ludicrous nonesense, right?

But then, of course, the special effects guys had to make him fly in the opposite direction to get the Earth spinning properly. Ah those *****.

That is literally the best reasoning I have ever heard for that completely nonsensical premise.

I salute you, sir.

[Reofeir]

And also, they know that they are missing a part called the catalyst. For all they knew, possibly these clamps connected to the catalyst. The general assumption was the catalyst took the energy and focused it. They were hoping Shepard would find the missing piece while they finished up most of it.

For the Reaper IFF, wasn't the Reaper IFF a friend foe system? Even then the Normandy went past the Omega 4 relay, it was still attacked by collector drones in those oculus. The reapers probably have ways to finding out who a friend truly is. You might fool them for a while, but not for long. For all we know they could also change their IFF codes so they can now know who the fakes are, the fakes using outdated ones of course.

[Fixers0]

Zenor wrote...
I'm very curious of what you claim to be good tactics are. I'm willing to listen, but I'm unsure at the point of ME3's begging with everyone didn't do anything to truly prepare for this, what do you do then?

There are some very visable contradiction about what the codex tells us about the Reaper war, capabilities and vulnarbilaties, but also general space combat tactics and what ends up happening on screen.

I'd really suggest watching this thread about how incompetant Hackett and the Alliance end up being.

Zenor wrote...
If we don't protect civilians, then our races would fall quicker. If we do protect them, our military grows weaker.
We need time working on weapons, which we need time to work on, and a lot more time to even get something started. Also noting that manufacturing plants & any industrial zones are destroyed by reapers as if they were main targets before they even do anything. So, major production is dwindling. It takes time to make ships, ships we lose constantly everytime a reaper comes around. So by the time we make new ships, those ships replace the destroyed and are of lower quantity then before.
Men constantly killed and turned against us, reapers have a constant supply of ground troops.
Moral is also decreasing, as it will appear to most men that we are losing this battle after seeing everyone die day after day.

Please the thread i've linked to above as this poins also links in with military incompetance.

Zenor wrote...
In my eyes it appears you're going to lose this war without something one way or the other. Do you have an idea of how to get around this huge problem? I'm curious.

Coventional victory through the usage of know technologies, should've been the goal of the plot, we could have deployed some very heavy ordinance when combating the Reapers, (Remember the "Citadel: Conventions" is the old codex?)

[BerzerkGene]

Yeah i saw the title and simply went "no ****".
Of course its ridiculous.
You just happen to find a super weapon(i use the term 'weapon' loosely, considering its a battery) with a zero percent success rate and suddenly the majority of the game centers on gathering everyone to build it? Perfectly reasonable.

...If you're insane.

Yeah the explanation for it is kinda crap. I mean would it kill someone to put in instructions on what it did? And how did no one figure out it was a power source? Thats nuts.
Yeah you mentioned it 'changed' the catalyst, it didn't it gave it options which it decides to present to you for...no reason.
Its best not to try and make sense of how it did anything. Someone did come up with a thread a while back explaining synthesis from their view using actual science. However its still not backed entirely up by Mass Effect's information.
Yeah, the jump in technologies is crap too. Random blueprints combined with inexplicable super ghost kid= peace forever!

[Reofeir]

From reading it so far, a larger more powerful fleet survived for a bit after taking a few reapers down with them after setting an ambush, unlike earth who had most of the reapers come in at once? I'm still reading, however it only proves that we could have a decent start. Maybe this is awnsered later on, but it still doesn't explain where we get men, technology, resources, ships, and the rest later on in the war. By that time, despite if we had faulty command, we are losing more then we are gaining. Doesn't matter if we are doing good at first, we'll still lose.

*Still reading, like said before

[devSin]

To be fair, a cheap plot device was wholly expected. And it didn't necessitate the horrible resolution that the game received (they did that all by themselves, on purpose).

Modifié par devSin, 02 octobre 2012 - 07:18 .

[xsdob]

It's about as beliveable as devices over 50,000 years old that can be detected by soveriegn, a reaper, not being picked up by the reapers 50,000 years ago when they were here in mass, despite invading said area where the beacons were.

And further more, being able to transmit not data, not imagies, not video, but thought, pure mental synaps firing respones.

And further more that they would be able to transmit any data to a none prothean mind with any degree of sucess, rather than it being like trying to pick up FM on an AM radio.

AND further more, having an ancient creature that leaves physical traces of itself and has been around for millions of years be undiscovered by the reapers, only to somehow not only be able to absorb and make perfect duplicates of a speices it had never encountered before, but to have said species able to simply give shepard the means to be a prothean with no damaging effects to his psyche.

AND FURTHER MORE having said species be a creature that ages the same as we do until their teenage years, stop aging for centuries, and than age slowly. And also to be able to breed with anything, anything at all, with no more genetic diversity to show for an interspecies mating than a simple change of skin color.

Mass effect is, by the foundations of it's universe by having the asari be the first race to become advance, an absurd tale with the most advance race having no basis in logic or reason.

[Ownedbacon]

Eterna5 wrote...

I'm curious, do you have a better story or plot occurrence that would allow the galaxy to defeat the Reapers?

A superweapon plot without the Catalyst would have been fine with me had it been better developed and tied in with ME1 and ME2. Its just the direction ME2 took the series and the way ME3 just brings a ancient superweapon out of nowhere rather than having the Alliance or even Cerberus develop technology from what was learned from Sovereign or the Human-Reaper fight/salvage.
There are a number of ways they could have used a similar plot but tied it to the story better. They just approached it with little regard to the events of ME1 or ME2 loosely following those plots but trying to make it all about the Crucible, the Catalyst, and the RGB ending.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Mcfly616 wrote...

[...]

I could care less about your opinion. Thems the facts dog.

It's "dogg."

And I'm still trying to absorb the fact that you are justifying--with a straight face--inorganic plot development/resolution with "they had to keep it a secret from the reapers." You need to dissociate the events of the story from the method by which the events are told. Until then, you aren't analysing anything, rhetorically, narratively, or critically.

edit: 

xsdob wrote...

I don't know how many times or ways anyone can explain it, but having fantastic elements or fantastic premises in a story does not licence fantastic or absurd resolutions. There are magic and elves in The Lord of the Rings, but it would be in no way justified if Tom Bombadil appeared in the last twenty pages of Return of the King and wished away Sauron's orc army.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 02 octobre 2012 - 07:29 .

[shodiswe]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

 yeah, i was suspicious of the crucible the second it was formally introduced in the mission on mars:

Liara: I've discovered plans for a Prothean device, one that could wipe out the reapers.
[color=rgb(170,170,170)">Shepard: ]Here? On Mars? [/color]
[color=rgb(170,170,170)">Liara: ]In the Prothean archives, yes.[/color]
Shepard: We've known about the Archives for decades. Why now?
Liara: Process of elimination, mixed with a little desperation.  When I got the data on the Alpha Relay incident, I knew I had to do something. Hacket knew it, too. I contacted him as an information broker, and we pooled our resources, looking for a way to stop the reapers. My search led me here. Hackett got me access to the Archives and kept me updated on your status...In any case, my work paid off. The Archives are full of data. An overwhelming amount. I think I found what we need.
Shepard: I guess I'll believe it when I see it. Where do we find this weapon?

and it's built to only have one function (destroy), but then ends up actually serving up to three functions depending on EMS. and the mechanics behind these three functions seem wildly different from each other (i.e., how can the same forces that drive synthesis also drive control or destroy?)   

Because it's just the powersource, in destroy you cause a catastrophic overload that spreads and fries every synthetic in the galaxy as the evil EMP spreads.
In the other options you use the power of the crucible to power one of the science projects created by the catalyst during it's billion/s year long research cycle.
So, either you destroy every synthetic, guilty and innocent or you allow one of the alternative solution to be "tested".

Control is an upgrade to the catalyst, it's the catalyst 2.0, based on the morals and understanding of a "lesser" organic being of the galaxy. This allows for a new catalyst "also known as AI Shepard" that will be more caring for the "lesser" specis.

Synthesis completes the first Catalysts mission, thereby it no longer has a mission to fulfil, the reaping has no meaning.
The Catalyst cares for nothing other than it's core purpose.
EDI and the Geth evolved, but the catalyst doesn't seem to evolve, other than possibly it's research. Maybe it was always too strong to be forced to evolve beyong creating the Reapers to do it's bidding.
Necessity is the mother of all innovation.

My guess is that the specis that created the Crucible was hoping to end the project and save their specis by ending the reason for the Reapers to reap/harvest. They couldn't stop the reapers, "If you can't stop them, join them" might have been their reasoning. Only they couldn't complete the project before they were wiped out, consequently they died, and other specis didn't bother figuring out the crucible until they got really desperate since it was such a monumental undertaking.
It was probably seen as costprohibitive and not worth it unless they knew what it did, but when the reaeprs showed up they might have started their work on this crazy project hoping for a miracle since they had no chance conventionaly.
Some might have thought it was a superweapon until the end.
In some cycles there might have been translation difficulties and the project might actualy have degressed.

The ending in the EC works. Thoguh imo they needed more and it wasn't perfect. It feelt like it was still pre alpha, especialy the everything from when you commit your forces to attack earth. The London mission was very streamlined/railroaded with hordemodes. Warassets didn't affect anything until you talk to the catalyst, more variation in the early mission would have been appreciated. Maybe some a few of those tricky moral and otherwise choices on the way to the beam.

[ghost9191]

well one, it can work without the citadel, it was over time made to use the citadel and relays to amplify it. And if on its own does the destroy option, targets reapers or possibly all synthetics and destroys them. or it can be used as a power source for control or synthesis . what you destroy could just be preventing the crucible from firing, rerouting the energy to the other two options . or something like that

but it does explain that over time races adapted it to use the citadel, the protheans knew that there was something controling the reapers, though they did not know what though. and the crucible might not have much influence on the catalyst, other then to show it that there are other options

just easier to think that destroy is the maain function of the crucible, and that control and synthesis just use the crucible as a power source

[Mcfly616]

Ownedbacon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's funny when I see people say, "oh, the crucible is stupid, how come it wasn't shown in the beacon visions", or one of my favorites, "The Catalyst is stupid, how come it wasnt foreshadowed in ME1?."


Lol.....um maybe because they are the 2 best kept secrets in the galaxy....hmm

I know they weren't foreshadowed because they were afterthought additions post ME2.

The Catalyst is stupid because it contradicts ME1. The writers made no effort to connect it to the events of ME1. Sovereign has absolutely no reason to be in the Milky Way. The Catalyst could have easily monitored organic life and opened the relay undetected by itself. It has control over the Citadel since it is a part of the Catalyst, yet the incompetent Reaper leader let the Protheans reprogram the Keepers. It also renders all Reapers Sovereign and Harbinger into pawns when there was more to them than that. The Human-Reaper plot is also made pointless by the Catalyst there was since there is no reason for Harbinger, or Harbingers experiments in making it prior to the invasion.

The Crucible is stupid because it is discovered in locations that were already looked over and Liara just goes there and looks extra hard and finds it. If they wanted a superweapon plot they should have had it stem from discoveries made about the Reapers from previous events in the story.

No. The Catalyst doesn't contradict ME1. The crucible being right under our noses is believable enough. Happens all the time in real life and videogames. I never said you had to like it. I just said it makes sense.


And i know the Catalyst and Crucible were thought up after ME2. Duhhhh....all I said was that it doesn't contradict anything because no matter when the writers came up with the ideas for them, they were in fact written into the story as "major" secrets within the story being told. Don't know how anybody didn't get that from what I've been saying lol. Instead you assume that I think the Catalyst and Crucible were planned from the beginning? Either trollin or just lack of common sense. Wouldn't be surprised by either

Modifié par Mcfly616, 02 octobre 2012 - 07:47 .

[Mcfly616]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

[...]

I could care less about your opinion. Thems the facts dog.

It's "dogg."

And I'm still trying to absorb the fact that you are justifying--with a straight face--inorganic plot development/resolution with "they had to keep it a secret from the reapers." You need to dissociate the events of the story from the method by which the events are told. Until then, you aren't analysing anything, rhetorically, narratively, or critically.

edit: 

xsdob wrote...

I don't know how many times or ways anyone can explain it, but having fantastic elements or fantastic premises in a story does not licence fantastic or absurd resolutions. There are magic and elves in The Lord of the Rings, but it would be in no way justified if Tom Bombadil appeared in the last twenty pages of Return of the King and wished away Sauron's orc army.

blah blah blah. Your opinion. Your opinion. And.....you guessed it, your opinion. Return of the Kings Epilogue and the way in which events are resolved, well they completely blow anyway(in my opinion lol) so...not a great example there.


ME3's ending takes inspiration from multiple Sci Fi classics. I'm a fan of classic Sci Fi. Apparently you're not. And thats fine. You saying it doesn't make sense, well, you just incorrect. You simply dont like it. Its whatever. Lol

[Sebby]

As absurd and contrived as the Crucible deus ex machina is, it's the only thing they could have done due to ME2 being a complete and utter waste of time where the galaxy isn't any better prepared to face the reapers than at ME1's ending and due to not trying to find a means to stop them(being Spectre therapist for daddy issues was more important). Well, that and Reaper plot induced stupidity(lol@being taken out by a worm and failing to kill a human on a small cliff)

The only realistic "ending" ME3 could have had thanks to ME2's pointlessness is the Normandy being destroyed on Earth or when it's approaching the Charon relay.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Mcfly616 wrote...

blah blah blah. Your opinion. Your opinion. And.....you guessed it, your opinion.

[...]

Nothing I said was subjective. Nor did I offer my opinion on sci fi classics, but I'm starting to get the feeling reading comprehension isn't your strongest suit.

You tried it tho.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:33 .

[damoose1]

^But Shepard was the only real one who believed in the Reapers, and he was preoccupied fighting the Collectors, and could not just leave them to take out earth. In Arrival, they did try to stop the Reapers too.

Plus, it does mention in 3 that they did try to prepare. Garrus hopes his plans saved a few lives, and Anderson and Hacket tried to prepare the fleets as best they could with the authority they had.

The dumb Reapers wear a bit irritating, but the wear the "dumb" ones, and you can't really kill a cockroach with a pistol. Something, simple like a boot would be better, which that reaper did not really have.

[What a Succulent Ass]

If we're about to explore just how outrageously bad ME2's plot was, I'd like to point out that the Collectors could never have taken out Earth. Those comments your squad members make in the ship are just completely absurd.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 02 octobre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Sebby]

Random Jerkface wrote...

If we're about to explore just how outrageously bad ME2's plot was, I'd like to point out that the Collectors could never have taken out Earth. Those comments your squad members make in the ship are just completely absurd.

Yeah, the Collectors run with their tails tucked from a handful of defence cannons in a backwater colony and we're supposed to believe they'd take on the Alliance and win? Lol, please.