390 réponses à ce sujet

[Nomen Mendax]

CrustyBot wrote...

Is this a good place to spam my dialog compass pictures?

<snipped to avoid spamming the image>

I prefer the Explanatory Thought Process (TM?) to paraphrases particularly as I think the latter are a dead end. Your example is very clear but I think you picked a relatively easy one that paraphrases could handle reasonably well. How would you deal with something more complex?  One of my  favourite examples is when you tell Fenris that its OK that he killed Hadriana and sympathize with his awful life as a slave. It's important to me that I see both parts of the dialogue -- i.e. agreeing with him killing her and the part where you promote his self-obsession.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:29 .

[Swagger7]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

The dialogue wheel can offer two extra choices to move the conversation forward but often doesn't. I wonder if people would be more willing to accept the wheel if those two extra slots were utilised more, maybe for more specific dialogue based on your characters class or race.

For example, using the lost dog conversation Mary posted:

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

This is a great idea.  However, I actually think it's kind of nice to have all the options to move the conversation forward on the right side.  Maybe they could just add an extra on each side?  There'd be two benefits to this.  First, you'd always have one conversation type (nice/neutral/mean) that would have two options (ie charming and sarcastic, or direct and aggressive) .  This would lead to much needed diversity in the dialogue options.  Also, it would allow for four investigate choices, and thus make the investigate submenu occur less frequently.  (I hate that thing.)

Also, I fully support the option to have complete lines appear above the wheel when the paraphrase is highlighted, although it looks like this is unlikely.

[Jadebaby]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Agreed Fiacre. I really enjoyed it in Mass Effect 1 and 2. But after going back and playing games like Fallout and DA Origins now. I've come to realise how superior the list form really is in terms of depth of choice.

Snip**

forgive the snip and my ignorance, but is it possible to include an investigate hub on the list form layout?

[Chromie]

CrustyBot wrote...

Is this a good place to spam my dialog compass pictures?

Upsettingshorts doesn't like options!

[wsandista]

CrustyBot wrote...

Is this a good place to spam my dialog compass pictures?

Anywhere is a good place.

[Nomen Mendax]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That was not my intention.  Only to say that they have a different perspective and priority, their reasons are their own.  They don't know better than YOU how YOU want to play, that would be ludicrous.  But they definitely know better than any of us how much it costs to do X or Y, and probably know better which approach appeals to more customers.  There's more room for debate in the latter, almost none at all in the former.

On the other hand, customers have no real idea what the cost is to do either X or Y, and can't say with any certainty what the majority of customers want, though they certainly claim perfect knowledge of both 'round here.  

I kind of think we are in agreement here.  I don't want to take David's post out of context but if the only reason to not have full dialogue is a stylistic choice (and he categorically did not say that it was the only reason) then I would disagree with the decision.

If its some combination of what you allude to above (costs, and their judgement of what will give them the best outcome in terms of pleasing people for the least expenditure) then that makes sense to me.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Is this a good place to spam my dialog compass pictures?

<snipped to avoid spamming the image>

I prefer the Explanatory Thought Process (TM?) to paraphrases particularly as I think the latter are a dead end. Your example is very clear but I think you picked a relatively easy one that paraphrases could handle reasonably well. How would you deal with something more complex?  One of my  favourite examples is when you tell Fenris that its OK that he killed Hadriana and sympathize with his awful life as a slave. It's important to me that I see both parts of the dialogue -- i.e. agreeing with him killing her and the part where you promote his self-obsession.

Possibly something like [Reassure and sympathize with Fenris], though that may be mistaken with a romantic option knowing how things pan out here.

I would keep the word reassure or some variant thereof as part of the option though, as that touches on both aspects: agreeing with his actions and reinforcing his mindset/intent/obsession.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:48 .

[panamakira]

I don't mind the dialogue wheel at all or the voiced protagonist. I actually prefer to have a voiced protagonist. The beef I have with the dialogue wheel is that I wish we could get, like in DA:O, the whole phrase of exactly what we are trying to say.

[upsettingshorts]

Skelter192 wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Is this a good place to spam my dialog compass pictures?

Upsettingshorts doesn't like options!

Wat.

Come to think of it, of all the stuff I've had to say on this site about this issue and that, I haven't once had a single thing to say about the dialog compass concept.  Ever.

Don't think I'll start now.  So... back to "wat?"

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 octobre 2012 - 03:00 .

[MorningBird]

EDIT: not worth it *snip*

I much prefer DA2's dialogue wheel.  There's room for improvement, sure, but I personally wouldn't want them to revert back to the dialogue list used in Origins.  On the topic of overall content, I didn't perceive a noticable difference in the amount of dialogue between the two games either.  I felt as though the dialogue was being presented differently, but the change didn't strike me as problematic.  If DA2 had less, it was a non-issue for me.

Modifié par MorningBird, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:58 .

[Nomen Mendax]

CrustyBot wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Is this a good place to spam my dialog compass pictures?

<snipped to avoid spamming the image>

I prefer the Explanatory Thought Process (TM?) to paraphrases particularly as I think the latter are a dead end. Your example is very clear but I think you picked a relatively easy one that paraphrases could handle reasonably well. How would you deal with something more complex?  One of my  favourite examples is when you tell Fenris that its OK that he killed Hadriana and sympathize with his awful life as a slave. It's important to me that I see both parts of the dialogue -- i.e. agreeing with him killing her and the part where you promote his self-obsession.

Possibly something like [Reassure and sympathize with Fenris], though that may be mistaken with a romantic option knowing how things pan out here.

I would keep the word reassure or some variant thereof as part of the option though, as that touches on both aspects: agreeing with his actions and reinforcing his mindset/intent/obsession.

Sounds good to me, and I agree that a description of what your intent is (which doesn't sound nearly as cool as ETP) is much better than paraphrases.

[upsettingshorts]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Players aren't interested in what's technically true, they take what they see and perceive and form their opinions based on that.

Presentation is important. Perceiving is believing. Understand this!

I bet you Mark Darrah and Mike Laidlaw are taking this feedback to the team in a key emergency meeting for all departments featuring a presentation titled, "The Importance of Customers' Demonstrably False Beliefs."

Worry not!  Soon they will understand the irrelevence of the truth.  It is a lesson the BSN will continue to teach them.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 octobre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Nomen Mendax]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I sometimes think Bioware is unaware that appearances matter. Maybe DA2 had just as many dialogue choices(though it did have less dialogue overall, so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back). But it appeared to be considerably less. Players aren't interested in what's technically true, they take what they see and perceive and form their opinions based on that.

Presentation is important. Perceiving is believing. Understand this!

Hmm, while I'm happy to criticize the dialogue wheel and paraphrasing I think you are asking a bit much here.  I can't see how you can expect Bioware to know what your perception of something is, particulary if your perception is inaccurate.

[edit] Or you could just read 'shorts snarkier version of what I said ...

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 03 octobre 2012 - 03:07 .

[Icinix]

BrotherWarth wrote...

I sometimes think Bioware is unaware that appearances matter. Maybe DA2 had just as many dialogue choices(though it did have less dialogue overall, so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back). But it appeared to be considerably less. Players aren't interested in what's technically true, they take what they see and perceive and form their opinions based on that.

Presentation is important. Perceiving is believing. Understand this!

Although I don't agree with the whole thing - that illusion you have more choice and dialogue than you do is certainly important from my perspective.

I'm a sucker you see, if you show me a wheel with five options abbreviated - and you show me a list with four lots of dialogue but complete sentences - that illusion of control over what I'm going to say - to know what I'm going to say will drag me in everytime.

The difference for me is I'm pointing my character in a direction I think I want to go, the dialogue list is me choosing totally what my character says - this is also one of my bigger problems with using the wheel and voiced dialogue. Instead of having control of our puppet I feel like I'm merely guiding a character.

I want the puppet dammit!

[mesmerizedish]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Agreed Fiacre. I really enjoyed it in Mass Effect 1 and 2. But after going back and playing games like Fallout and DA Origins now. I've come to realise how superior the list form really is in terms of depth of choice.

Okay, I have seen this argument a lot, and I think this requires clarification. You absolutely, categorically, did not get more choices in the Origins dialogue list.

I sometimes think Bioware is unaware that appearances matter. Maybe DA2 had just as many dialogue choices(though it did have less dialogue overall, so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back). But it appeared to be considerably less. Players aren't interested in what's technically true, they take what they see and perceive and form their opinions based on that.

Presentation is important. Perceiving is believing. Understand this!

MODEDIT: Removed personal attack.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:42 .

[Foolsfolly]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Agreed Fiacre. I really enjoyed it in Mass Effect 1 and 2. But after going back and playing games like Fallout and DA Origins now. I've come to realise how superior the list form really is in terms of depth of choice.

Okay, I have seen this argument a lot, and I think this requires clarification. You absolutely, categorically, did not get more choices in the Origins dialogue list.

Here's a typical Origins player hub:


There was a hard limit of six displayed player lines per hub. Any more than that would simply not appear. Questions (which sometimes could be asked repeatedly and sometimes removed themselves from the list after being asked) count toward the six option limit. Usually only one or two choices would actually advance the conversation, the questions would be answered and then would loop back to the same set of choices.

Here's the same hub written for DA2:


We have the same six line limit, however questions move to an investigate hub, and therefore do not count toward the total number of displayed choices. This actually allows us to have more player lines because we don't have to choose between letting you ask another question and letting you have another choice to advance the conversation.

You're awesome.

[Dhiro]

BrotherWarth wrote...

MODEDIT: removing personal attack and response chain

I can only speak for myself, but I'd hope-- well, I'd hope BioWare not to underestimate their players. Please forgive me if I'm not expressing myself correctly here, but what I mean is: I do think players can perceive what is technically true, so I don't personally think that BioWare's problems with the wheel came when they decided to assume that the players would understand that instead of trying to show a certain illusion. I appreciate that, actually.

Err.. am I still making sense? Good. What I'd like to see in DA III is a way to see what our character's line will be. I was hoping that with the new engine they would be able to maybe give us the complete answer if we mouse over or something of the sort. I didn't thought the wheel was terrible, but I think the paraphrases can be improved.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

MODEDIT: Removed exchange that was getting heated

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

[Boss Fog]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Agreed Fiacre. I really enjoyed it in Mass Effect 1 and 2. But after going back and playing games like Fallout and DA Origins now. I've come to realise how superior the list form really is in terms of depth of choice.

Okay, I have seen this argument a lot, and I think this requires clarification. You absolutely, categorically, did not get more choices in the Origins dialogue list.

I sometimes think Bioware is unaware that appearances matter. Maybe DA2 had just as many dialogue choices(though it did have less dialogue overall, so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back). But it appeared to be considerably less. Players aren't interested in what's technically true, they take what they see and perceive and form their opinions based on that.

Presentation is important. Perceiving is believing. Understand this!

Are you seriously arguing against something that you know is technically true just for the sake of other players?  Nevermind that these other players are so oblivious to simply press the investigate option to reveal more dialogue options; you as a person know those options exist but your complaint is that they simply aren't visible even though there's a very obvious and clear way to reveal them?  

[Vandicus]

MODEDIT: Exchange removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Dhiro]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

MODEDIT: Exchange removed

I can only speak for myself, but I'd hope-- well, I'd hope BioWare not to underestimate their players. Please forgive me if I'm not expressing myself correctly here, but what I mean is: I do think players can perceive what is technically true, so I don't personally think that BioWare's problems with the wheel came when they decided to assume that the players would understand that instead of trying to show a certain illusion. I appreciate that, actually.

Err.. am I still making sense? Good. What I'd like to see in DA III is a way to see what our character's line will be. I was hoping that with the new engine they would be able to maybe give us the complete answer if we mouse over or something of the sort. I didn't thought the wheel was terrible, but I think the paraphrases can be improved.

You're making sense. But the problem is that even professional reviewers said DA2 had fewer dialogue options. And it's the same thing with customer reviews. The wheel and abbreviated responses put forth the illusion that we're getting less. I know I felt like my options were more limited when I played DA2.

That's a good point, I think, and I confess that compared to DA: O's list I felt a bit limited. I'm currently doing another DA: O playthrough and, having Mary's post in mind, it's actually pretty easy to see what she means: the list and the wheel are actually very close to eachother, as far as dialogue options to pick go. I still think that if we manage to see the full line, or something close to the full line in DA III, people (actually ,myself, I can't speak for other people, of course) would probably be happier with the wheel.

(Also, just  abit off-topic, is that Canderous?)

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:46 .

[slimgrin]

After DA2, I'd be more concerned about the quality of the writing than the way it's represented.