390 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But to pretend the fact DA2 was rushed didn't have consequences is lunacy.  Following that, it's just illogical to assume those issues will repeat themselves.

That's only illogical if DA3 isn't another title that's being rushed. As far as we are told it's getting somewhat longer development time than DA2, but at the same time the new game is saddled with engine change that goes way deeper than changes in DA2 did. The game is also supposed to cover much larger area than even DAO, let alone DA2. End result, we really don't know just how tight the schedule for DA3 is.

And if you think these issues can't possibly repeat because people learn from the past mistakes, then think again -- DA2 wasn't the first BioWare game which faced backlash and negative opinions thanks to blatant reuse of levels. That's one mistake they already could've learnt from.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Fast Jimmy]

arcelonious wrote...

Except some people, like myself, enjoy the organization that the dialogue wheel provides. I dislike selecting a response from the list format that abruptly ends the conversation (because of a lack of distinction between investigative and progressive responses) because it pulls me out of the experience and forces me to reload.

I also disagree that the icons like the Heart are "auto-win" particularly when you consider that there are numerous occasions where selecting the heart will not lead to a romance or romantic encounter (e.g., Aveline, Sebastian (as a male, or having flirted with someone else), Variel, Orlanna, etc.), not to mention that there are romances that depend on more than just selecting the Heart Icon, such as in Isabela's romance.  Even trying to lie isn't guaranteed, such as when Hawke tries to lie in front of Merrill during Finders Keepers.

In general, the icons represent the protagonist's intentions, which sometimes relates to the player's desired outcome, but to say that they are simply outcome indicators isn't really true.

The options of the heart icon not working as an auto-win romance is because those are not optional as romances. If the heart icon had a troll face on it for every option to flirt that wouldn't result in a romance, that would be WORSE.

However, what you DIDN'T see is a heart icon result in a relationship fail for someone you could romance. If, for example, you heart icon'd Morrigan, it would have resulted in a romance fail, since your intent would have been to be romantic, something she despises. 

Point being, the only time the icons did not auto-win was when that outcome was not possible, ever. There was not, on the other hand, a time when an icon showed, for example, a bribe option that would fail at giving a bribe, but a diplomatic option where a bribe would be possible. Yet this SHOULD be possible. Comnig out and saying "here's money, look the other way" and saying "I understand this is an unusual request... please take this as compensation for your inconvenience and we will be on our way."

There is a bribe of money, there is a bribe of favors, a bribe of gifts, a bribe of sexuality... there could be a dozen different methods of going about what you want, which is to pay off someone to get out of your way. Rather than give us options, we are given the most direct method possible and told if it succeeds (WAY more often than not, it does) and then move along the conversation... with almost no real input into HOW our character offers said bribe. 

That's just one example of a transaction. Romances and friendships are even more complex, as are interrogations. The dialogue wheel ignores the thousands of degrees of nuances that all of these interactions can have.

The dialogue list in DA:O didn't do this perfectly... but it could, if the list was long enough, do this, in a world with unlimited resources. But I'm not sure the wheel EVER could.

[Iosev]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The options of the heart icon not working as an auto-win romance is because those are not optional as romances.

Except that you're assuming that everyone already has that meta-game knowledge about who is and isn't romanceable,and that's just silly.  I had no idea that Aveline wasn't a romance option (I intentionally stayed away from the forums in order to avoid spoiler information like available romances).

As to your other point, as much as I would love to see larger and larger permutations of what the protagonist can do within dialogue in order to make it more realistic, I think that has more to do with resources and technology, rather than wheel versus list.

Modifié par arcelonious, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:23 .

[andocrack]

In Exile wrote...

Why would it hurt conversations with them?

Casually talking to Sten and Morrigan, especially in the initial stages, is so different than talking to someone like Leliana or Alistair. Sten gives one line and stops talking, and Morrigan disapproves of [even the idea of] unselfish actions. I just don't really see how that maps out with Bioware's color-coding since some of these responses come from more of a gray area. I understand that Bioware also used the color-neutral "choice" icon in some of these instances from DA2, it seemed a little awkward, in my opinion. Maybe that's just me, but I feel in this case the wheel would either not fit or automatically give away the correct dialogue path for (dis)approval.

Nomen Mendax wrote...

But sometimes paraphrases were
indistinguishable except for the icons.  Much of this was a result of
the way that DA2 paraphrases were written, but in some cases without the
icon you would have been left with 2 or 3 paraphrases that were
essentially the same.

I can agree with that. The paraphrasing was a problem for me. I could be wrong on my perception of this, but from what I gather of the way people complained about the auto-dialogue of Mass Effect 3, I felt like that was worse in DA2 because the paraphrasing was sometimes "Yes," "No," or "Why?" and the actual line was way more than that and should've been described better than by using an icon.

[NRieh]

How many conversations have you had in your life where you knew exactly what topic/question/statement would move the dialog forward, what would cause offense, what would change the subject and what would cause the person in question to lose interest and just wander off

Icons do not show RESULT, they show INTENTION. There is no way to indicate your PC intenions without seeing full line OR icon. You may want to flirt with Aveline - it does not mean you'll get anything, but your character does have an option to intentionally express his-her feelings towards her.

I don't know what my friend may answer to me, but I know when I'm about "let's just go out somewhere" and when I'm eager to discuss multiple options (which does not mean that my friend won't be first one to say "let's just go out somewhere").

And also, It's a game, game is a model. I may ask as well "How often IRL do you measure yor stats in numbers, and what your cunning and charisma are?"

Your problem is not wheel or icons, your problem is that (quite often) intention=outcome. But you see - either this or hated so very much by some part of players rolls and checks. Would you really like to get a game where romance depends on cunnig check (or worse - RNG roll)? That'd be so very much realistic, you know...8E

And seeing full lines?.. I'm playing on a 15' laptop, not on a console attached to a few meters wide plasma panel.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

This is digging back into the thread to pull out a quote, but I really want to comment on this:

Cstaf wrote...

I think i like the "no investigate" approach better since it feels more like a real conversation with a NPC and not a "im going to interegate this NPC to milk as much information as i can out of him". But i can understand why the other side prefers to have a investigate button though.

How is this at all like a real conversation? If I have 5 questions to ask, unless the other person tells me that they have to leave or don't have time for me, I'm going to ask my 5 questions. The way DA:O handled it was nonsensical, because certain options made questions vanish, but there's no reason why they should. 

I find real-world conversations often move along without me (especially grroup discussions), where asking the wrong question sets everyone else off on a tangent from which there is no return.

I've said many times before that I think the DAO dialogue system mimics real-world conversation almost exactly.

But I've also said that the wheel format itself only costs us two things - the options are are shorter (because the hub is in the middle of the screen, rather than the edge), and the options are not visibly numbered.  Having visible investigate options isn't a problem because players can ignore the orientation of the options when choosing among them (much as we could ignore the order of the options in previous games).

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Being either flirty or sarcastic is all about wordplay, body-language and tone.

Only if you're good at it.

So all we have left is maybe guessing off the word used (if we don't know tone/intent ahead of time).

If we scrap the voice, then we can know tone ahead of time.  And we always know intent ahead of time - intent is the reason we chose one dialogue option rather than another.  We have an objective, and we thought that option would achieve it.

Sometime's we're wrong.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 03 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Being either flirty or sarcastic is all about wordplay, body-language and tone.

Only if you're good at it.

Even if you're bad at it, you still use wordplay, body-language, and tone.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nrieh wrote...

How many conversations have you had in your life where you knew exactly what topic/question/statement would move the dialog forward, what would cause offense, what would change the subject and what would cause the person in question to lose interest and just wander off

Icons do not show RESULT, they show INTENTION. There is no way to indicate your PC intenions without seeing full line OR icon. You may want to flirt with Aveline - it does not mean you'll get anything, but your character does have an option to intentionally express his-her feelings towards her.

But it will always be perceived as flirtation, and it will always receive a positive response (even if Aveline isn't interested, she's flattered by your interest).

It is no longer possible to try to flirt and have the recipient not even notice, or perhaps be offended.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Being either flirty or sarcastic is all about wordplay, body-language and tone.

Only if you're good at it.

Even if you're bad at it, you still use wordplay, body-language, and tone.

Not necessarily intentionally.  You might use only wordplay, and be undermined by your body-language or tone.  You could make a comment you thought was wry, but your humour goes unnoticed by those around you.

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the options are are shorter (because the hub is in the middle of the screen, rather than the edge)

If i remember right there was already limit of 64 chars to dialogue lines in DAO, which would effectively make them less than half of screen long, tops. If the paraphrases in DA2 are exceedingly short i think it has much more to do with conscious decision to keep them very brief and/or with slightly larger font. Since screen space wise you could easily arrange full lines of DAO in the same manner DA2 did its own.

[Sylvius the Mad]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the options are are shorter (because the hub is in the middle of the screen, rather than the edge)

If i remember right there was already limit of 64 chars to dialogue lines in DAO, which would effectively make them less than half of screen long, tops.

The DA2 limt was 30 characters.  That's a big difference.

64 characters runs pretty far across the screen at 640*480, which BioWare continues to insist on supporting (even though they actually stopped supporting that in 2001, but then brought it back when they started releasing console titles).

Ideally they'd stop supporting the 640*480 display, and that would give all dialogue formats more space.

[abnocte]

Cultist wrote...

Not quite correct example, as we can add dozens of dialogue options where we have to guess the answer or solve a riddle.
Good old picture of RPG then and NOW have better comparison - actual dialogue options and three equivalents of "Continue" button. And dialogue wheel never be able to come even close to that level of complexity in conversations, limitin us to dumbed down primitive dialogues with three or, in best case, four options.

Well, may be I should have been clearer in my post but I was on my lunch break and had no time.

What I wanted to express is that P:T dialogue ( sometimes ) showed the intent with words + full text and, regardless of how hard Bioware tries, no amount of paraphrases or beautiful icons they come up with can beat the clearness of that example.

Add to that the number of available responses, and highly doubt that Bioware is going to ever offer a Wheel with more than 2 levels and the result is that  the wheel totally undermines the player roleplaying options.

The wheel is stylish, P:T dialog tree is useful.

[Fast Jimmy]

arcelonious wrote...

Except that you're assuming that everyone already has that meta-game knowledge about who is and isn't romanceable,and that's just silly.  I had no idea that Aveline wasn't a romance option (I intentionally stayed away from the forums in order to avoid spoiler information like available romances).

Yes, but you are missing the angle of what I am saying.

Morrigan is romanceable in DA:O. But if you used the equivalent of the heart icon for her dialogue, it would have failed. The same goes for diplomatic dialogue with Sten, as he would react to it as just prattle (although he wouldn't react well to Snarky or Aggressive tones, either - another limitation of the wheel's tones is that it pigeon holes everything into these three tones, which ignores the entire spectrum of human emotion). 

Point is - if a romance is possible with a character? The heart icon can get you there. You don't lose anything by choosing the heart icon whenever possible. Just spam the heart icon until you get a sex scene, that's what the wheel, essentially, has us do. This character can't be romanced? Darn, I'll just have to heart icon the next person. Again, not being able to romance everyone who has a heart icon does not mean that it still isn't an auto-win option. Its just that with certain characters, winning isn't an option. It doesn't mean that by choosing the heart icon, you could ever LOSE the romance. Even though that's totally how it works in real life (if you get all sappy and emotional too early or with the wrong person, it can turn them off faster than a light switch).

Nrieh wrote...

And also, It's a game, game is a model. I may ask as well "How often IRL do you measure yor stats in numbers, and what your cunning and charisma are?" 

Your problem is not wheel or icons, your problem is that (quite often) intention=outcome. But you see - either this or hated so very much by some part of players rolls and checks. Would you really like to get a game where romance depends on cunnig check (or worse - RNG roll)? That'd be so very much realistic, you know...8E

A) Video games are, the long and short of it, number crunching programs. If/then statements launched in sequence based on derivative variables. Many people in real life, including philosophers, physicists, micro-biologists, neurologists and cosmologists, believe this to be an actual representation, to some degree, of how the universe works. If you can see all of the numbers and values in a system, you can predict it to an alarming degree of accuracy.

Aside from all of that... I'm not asking that a Heart icon roll a Cunning attribute check - that's not what happens in DA:O. I'm asking for a line of dialogue, completely unfettered with pre-knowledge of what the user interface tells me. Is the dialogue one of three options on the right hand side? Then I know it will move the conversation forward, with cute, color-coded icons to show me the results. 

The wheel allows for no ambiguity. Your friend could come up to you and say "Did you hear your ex just got engaged?"

You could have the response "Oh, wow. I am happy for them." This could be said in a myriad of different ways. And it could convey tone you didn't (intentionally) mean to convey.

Your friend could say "Wow... I'm impressed by how mature you are handling that." or "Hmmm... do I hear a hint of jealousy in there?" or "I'm sorry, you are bummed out, let's go grab a drink." or "Ha! I know! What a bush whacker. Forget them, they aren't worth your time."

I could say the first line, in real life, and have any of the above responses from a friend. I might intend to sound nice, but a hint of jealousy or sarcasm might leak through that my friend may (or may not) pick up on. 

Point being, very, VERY rarely do people sit down and think of their TONE during a conversation. If you are trying to phrase your words to be as nice and clear as possible, but you are frustrated because you've tried explaining something for the past forty minutes, then your tone can be more aggressive and angry than you had intended. You focused on the words, but how the person reacted based on your inteneded or unintended tone is outside of your control. That's how communication works the majority of the time - you don't focus on intent or emotion, you focus on words. Your emotion just comes through naturally. And there can be misinterpretations of that conveyed emotion, even with the same words.

With that mindset, I was able to explain every possible surprise in DA:O's system, as the above scenarios happen to me in real life all of the time. With DA2's system, I can't choose the words that are said, but I can choose paraphrases. However, the paraphrases are also telegraphed to me with information about exactly how my character will be emphasizing the line. Which, instead of being helpful, is actually hurtful to the experience of being in a conversation.

And seeing full lines?.. I'm playing on a 15' laptop, not on a console attached to a few meters wide plasma panel.

Dialog lines are too small, period. I have 20/20 vision, a 42" tv and played both DA:O and DA2 on a console - its not friendly AT ALL to reading. There is a whole separate thread discussing this on the forum. I feel your pain, but I would not blame the dialogue list, as it is a problem for PC and console players, alike.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Not necessarily intentionally.  You might use only wordplay, and be undermined by your body-language or tone.  You could make a comment you thought was wry, but your humour goes unnoticed by those around you.

Actually, when you flirt with Aveline sometimes, it doesn't ever register. I believe when she is talking about Dominic the first time, saying she feels lonely and that no one cares (or something, I'm going off of the cuff here) and Hawke can say "I care about you" with the heart icon and have Aveline act like you aren't being romantic at all, like the girl lead to her friend who is obviously in love to everyone but her in a bad teenage movie.

Regardless, using the heart icon to achieve a false positive (showing the heart icon when a romance isn't possible) doesn't negate the fact that you can NEVER use it to obtain a true negative (where a romance is possible, but by choosing the heart icon you are unable to achieve it). If Hawke wants to be in a romance with someone, its just a matter of saying nice things and then click the heart every time. There is never a debate about whether something you say will be taken the wrong way, or be received poorly, ESPECIALLY with the way each companion was married to their causes (excluding Isabella and Varric, arguably). 

All of these options were designed to provide a deeper experience, but they, in my opinion, just lent themselves to epic amounts of meta-gaming.

[Iosev]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

Except that you're assuming that everyone already has that meta-game knowledge about who is and isn't romanceable,and that's just silly.  I had no idea that Aveline wasn't a romance option (I intentionally stayed away from the forums in order to avoid spoiler information like available romances).

Yes, but you are missing the angle of what I am saying.

Morrigan is romanceable in DA:O. But if you used the equivalent of the heart icon for her dialogue, it would have failed. The same goes for diplomatic dialogue with Sten, as he would react to it as just prattle (although he wouldn't react well to Snarky or Aggressive tones, either - another limitation of the wheel's tones is that it pigeon holes everything into these three tones, which ignores the entire spectrum of human emotion). 

Point is - if a romance is possible with a character? The heart icon can get you there. You don't lose anything by choosing the heart icon whenever possible. Just spam the heart icon until you get a sex scene, that's what the wheel, essentially, has us do. This character can't be romanced? Darn, I'll just have to heart icon the next person. Again, not being able to romance everyone who has a heart icon does not mean that it still isn't an auto-win option. Its just that with certain characters, winning isn't an option. It doesn't mean that by choosing the heart icon, you could ever LOSE the romance. Even though that's totally how it works in real life (if you get all sappy and emotional too early or with the wrong person, it can turn them off faster than a light switch).

The heart icon is simply there to indicate when you're character is attempting to flirt with someone, because it's not always easy to decipher when the protagonist is trying to flirt from just text alone (e.g., complaints about starting romances that people did not intend to start).  Again, Isabela's romance depends on more than just selecting the Heart icon; there is a choice after her sex scene that is unmarked, that progresses or ends the romance.

[Fast Jimmy]

arcelonious wrote...

The heart icon is simply there to indicate when you're character is attempting to flirt with someone, because it's not always easy to decipher when the protagonist is trying to flirt from just text alone (e.g., complaints about starting romances that people did not intend to start).  Again, Isabela's romance depends on more than just selecting the Heart icon; there is a choice after her sex scene that is unmarked, that progresses or ends the romance.

Yes, but again... choosing the heart icon every time will pave the way. One piece of dialogue in one romance that can break the romance is a drop in the bucket - essentially, you have to make one choice. And I completed the Isabella romance twice and have no idea what choice you are talking about, so I can't imagine it was all that difficult of one.

I would LOVE to see someone give a stab at putting some DA:O companion conversations into the wheel. Just as an effort to show me that DA:O conversations could even WORK in the wheel. In the case of Morrigan, I seriously doubt it could. 

[Iosev]

It's not that difficult, dialogue options like, "Maybe tied to a flagpole and tickled," or "You could probe me anytime," could easily be marked with a heart.  Again, all the heart icons really do is denote when the protagonist is attempting to initiate a romance or romantic encounter.

Modifié par arcelonious, 03 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

arcelonious wrote...

It's not that difficult, dialogue options like, "Maybe tied to a flagpole and tickled," or "You could probe me anytime," could easily be marked with a heart.  Again, all the heart icons really do is denote when the protagonist is attempting to initiate a romance.

That's the problem.  What if I want to say those things when I'm not attempting to initiate a romance?

[NRieh]

It is no longer possible to try to flirt and have the recipient not even notice, or perhaps be offended.

And when exactly was it possible (without [charm] charisma checks and other "social" skill rolls)?

Once again - it's not a "wheel" vs "full lines list" issue. It's writing that you argue here about.

Either writer thinks it proper to make reaction that follows player intentions or he does not. No matter how those intentions are expressed (full line, icons, something else).

Note, that when intentions are not followed - many dislike it. Did you hear how many people were angry about Anders doing his plan no matter what? Did you hear how many players were pissed by Tallis that grabbed her scroll and said "bye!".

Not to mention ME3 endings - oooh, those players intentions that are not always followed.....

Video games are, the long and short of it, number crunching programs. If/then statements launched in sequence based on derivative variables. Many people in real life, including philosophers, physicists, micro-biologists, neurologists and cosmologists, believe this to be an actual representation, to some degree, of how the universe works. If you can see all of the numbers and values in a system, you can predict it to an alarming degree of accuracy.

Cool. Complex models are also possible, yeah. But PCs (not to mention...some consoles) are kinda limited in their powers, you know. Even if they made "real" model of throwing a cake into Bill's face - most of our PCs would've melt down. And note - I mentioned a scenario that did not involve any single social emulation.

[Fast Jimmy]

Nrieh wrote...

It is no longer possible to try to flirt and have the recipient not even notice, or perhaps be offended.

And when exactly was it possible (without [charm] charisma checks and other "social" skill rolls)?

Once again - it's not a "wheel" vs "full lines list" issue. It's writing that you argue here about.

Either writer thinks it proper to make reaction that follows player intentions or he does not. No matter how those intentions are expressed (full line, icons, something else).

Note, that when intentions are not followed - many dislike it. Did you hear how many people were angry about Anders doing his plan no matter what? Did you hear how many players were pissed by Tallis that grabbed her scroll and said "bye!".

Not to mention ME3 endings - oooh, those players intentions that are not always followed.....

Video games are, the long and short of it, number crunching programs. If/then statements launched in sequence based on derivative variables. Many people in real life, including philosophers, physicists, micro-biologists, neurologists and cosmologists, believe this to be an actual representation, to some degree, of how the universe works. If you can see all of the numbers and values in a system, you can predict it to an alarming degree of accuracy.

Cool. Complex models are also possible, yeah. But PCs (not to mention...some consoles) are kinda limited in their powers, you know. Even if they made "real" model of throwing a cake into Bill's face - most of our PCs would've melt down. And note - I mentioned a scenario that did not involve any single social emulation.

You are not catching the point here.

Morrigan disapproves of you saying you love her. Its not a stat roll, or a number crunch. She does not like it.

Put the Morrigan romance into a dialogue wheel. Show me how that would work with DA2. I will never bring up the topic again if you can demonstrate how that relationship would even be possible without insanely confusing/conflicting pieces of information.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Iosev]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

It's not that difficult, dialogue options like, "Maybe tied to a flagpole and tickled," or "You could probe me anytime," could easily be marked with a heart.  Again, all the heart icons really do is denote when the protagonist is attempting to initiate a romance.

That's the problem.  What if I want to say those things when I'm not attempting to initiate a romance?

That really has more to do with a limit to how many dialogue options that developers can implement into their system due to resources and technology.  Those dialogue responses were what initiated a romance with Morrigan.  I'm not against the idea of adding complexity to the romance beyond the heart icons, such as romances dependent upon further, unmarked dialogue (e.g., Isabela's romance), but I personally do like it when I know that my character is attempting to initiate it.

Modifié par arcelonious, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:10 .

[Kidd]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would LOVE to see someone give a stab at putting some DA:O companion conversations into the wheel. Just as an effort to show me that DA:O conversations could even WORK in the wheel. In the case of Morrigan, I seriously doubt it could. 

Here's an attempt I just did real quick. I youtube'd "morrigan dialogue" and found this video.

If there's anything that seems interesting about the venture, it's that the options are not always put in the same order and sometimes there's multiple answers of the same colour on the wheel at the same time.

EDIT: BSN colour coding leaves... much to be desired. And now all formatting screwed up. Click link here instead.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Fast Jimmy]

arcelonious wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

It's not that difficult, dialogue options like, "Maybe tied to a flagpole and tickled," or "You could probe me anytime," could easily be marked with a heart.  Again, all the heart icons really do is denote when the protagonist is attempting to initiate a romance.

That's the problem.  What if I want to say those things when I'm not attempting to initiate a romance?

That really has more to do with a limit to how many dialogue options that developers can implement into their system due to resources and technology.  Those dialogue responses were what initiated a romance with Morrigan.  I'm not against the idea of adding complexity to the romance beyond the heart icons, such as romances dependent upon further, unmarked dialogue (e.g., Isabela's romance), but I personally do like it when I know that my character is attempting to initiate it.

No, its not a limit. If you put those lines in full text, I can say them however whenever I want to. And then, lo and behold, the NPC will think I am flirting with them when I may not have intended it. 

A perfectly normal and human interaction miscommunication! How can we allow this?!

Oh wait, we totally can, because people miscommunicate all of the time. But advertising blatantly what the intent is (when I could say those exact same words with DIFFERENT intent) forces us to play as Bioware's character. Instead of us choosing the dialogue we want with possibly unintended consequences (like a silent, full-text conversation does). 

In BG2, if you are in a romance with Viconia and have already slept with her, she will say one night she is too tired for sex. Trying to push her and having sex will cause her to be angry with you in the morning and possibly leave your party. Just cuddling will keep her happy.

Will the conversation icons for this be Heart... and heart? I don't know how a sex scene wouldn't be chosen by a heart. But it will result in her breaking up with you... so should it be a broken heart? Will cuddling be seen as a diplomatic solution? The whole interlude is very difficult to transcribe to the wheel. In fact, I'd say its impossible. 

If we lose the option to have conversations and relationships like this, but instead just have companion worship of Hawke or the Qunicy in DA3, then what's the point?

Long story short - you may be able to point out similarities to the dialogue list as the wheel, but when it comes down to certain situations and interactions, the wheel is limiting to the extreme. And all it takes is one bad wheel experience to make me guarded against EVERY wheel choice from that point on. 

[Iosev]

Fast Jimmy, let's just leave it that we value and expect different things from a game, and we're simply not going to agree with how we perceive what the wheel and list offer and deny.