121 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreaDraco]

I have a question. I pondered it for quite a time, I replayed portions of the game to search for an answer (to no avail), so I'm posting itright here hoping that maybe David or one of you wises know the answer.

Let's assume that the Chantry got everything right. If we believe at their version, the Maker created all things. Thus, he also created the Old Gods, probably cunning and malevolent dragons that lured men to corruption, convincing them that they were actual gods. If this is true, why? Because they really wanted to be gods? Because they wanted the Tevinter Lords to taint the Golden City?

However, let's assume that the Tevinter Lords were right. If the Old Gods were actual gods, and the Maker did not create them, who exactly is the Maker? Another Old God that wasn't corrupted and actually cared for mankind? And if not, what exactly is the relationship between the Old Gods and the Maker? Are they two totally different kinds of divinities?

And what if we assume the Elven mythology is correct? Are the Old Gods/Archdemons the Evil Gods that Fen'harel imprisoned in their underground reamls, luring men to them to get free?

[Original182]

So far there is some hint to the existence of these:

The Maker: Andraste's Ashes is quite a strong evidence in my opinion. Only the ashes of a disciple of the Maker can heal the illness of Arl Eamon, along with many people in the past.

Old God: A lot of first hand witnesses confirm that the Old God may exist. Morrigan attempting to capture such a thing, Grey Warden Riordan claiming only that the sould of an Old God will merge with the Grey Warden's soul, killing them both, etc.

Elven gods: So far I don't have any hint that they exist. Maybe the ghosts in the Werewolf lair may hint that they may exist.

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Someone on these forums posted a theory that the Old Gods ARE the Elven gods, which I find quite fascinating.

[Maria Caliban]

If the Chantry is right, the Old Gods are a type of high dragon. Entering the Golden City was done as an attempt to usurp heaven.



If the Imperial religion was correct, the Maker doesn’t exist.



If the Elven religion is correct, neither the Imperial Old Gods nor the Maker exists.

[Alakatra]

Although there are certain similarities between some of the Old and Elven Gods, I always thought that the elven Gods and the difference the elves make between the good and the bad gods is a hint to the fade. The good gods are spirits and the evil ones are demons. And the way Fen'harel locked both sides away is similar to the way spirits and demons cannot leave the Fade without help from the other side.

[Ravenfeeder]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Someone on these forums posted a theory that the Old Gods ARE the Elven gods, which I find quite fascinating.

That's one that I've thought of and I suspect has been deliberately left unclear.  My Dalish elf certainly thought so, which is one of the reasons he participated in the Dark Ritual - that and that he's besotted with Morrigan and wants to live.

[AndreaDraco]

About the Elven gods, I think that only the evil ones may be compared to the Old Gods, since Elgar'nan and such are portrayed much more like good entities mindful of old Greek myths.



I agree that the Sacred Ashes are a good proof of the Maker's existence. Now, we must see who exactly the Maker is. The only true god like the Chantry proclaims or one of many gods (being them Old Gods à la Tevinter or à la Elven myth) or a totally different thing? If the Old Gods are high dragons corrupted by the taint, maybe the Maker could be a High Dragon untainted.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The sacred ashes themselves aren't really proof, since counter arguements state that their powers could also come from some sort of Lyruim reaction or other non-divine explaination. It is much the same as real-life religious miricales: believers will state a crying statue or vision in the clouds as evidence of a supreme being, while skeptics will point out a number of mundane, scientific explainations.



With the ashes, the only conclusion I have come to is it's really a matter of faith. My own characters have been non-religous, anti Chantry, so they view the ashes power from the more "scientific" view that it's something to do with lyruim exposure and reaction. But those who play characters of strong or uncertain faith would disagree.



In DA, the only thing certain about religion is that it is entirely a matter of individual faith. The only gods that ever existed that we have concrete proof of are the old gods, who really might be little more than super powerful, insanely intelligent dragons.



In a polythiestic world, the existance of one set of gods would not cancel the possibility of another. In ancient times, different people worshiped different pantheons or cosmologies, yet also managed to accept the existance of other people's gods, and often, when traveling, it was customary for a stranger in a strange land to pay homage to local dieties and spirits. (Pissing off your host countries gods was considered a major social faux pas back in those days, and could end up cursing you).



In the end, though, in regards to religion in Thedas, there really are no absolutes. It comes down to what you personally believe.

[AndreaDraco]

Well, Alqua (my first mage and my avatar) was somewhat of an atheist: he surely didn't believe in the Maker, and was actually quite fascinated by the old Elven myths, once he met the Dalish elves he heard so much about. Even this, though, was more from an antropological perspective than a religious one. In his view, Archdemons are indeed "Old God"s, and that's saying insanely intelligent dragons, as you wonderfully put it. And since I envisioned him like a Humanist, not interested in the divine, he certainly believed that Andraste's Sacred Ashes were only a very powerful, ancient, magical artifact...

... but, what about the Golden/Black City? Its very presence seems to suggest that an overarching entity (being it the Maker, another Old God or the major Elven divinity) existed, and that the Old Gods indeed sought to usurp it.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 28 décembre 2009 - 02:45 .

[Apophis2412]

AndreaDraco wrote...

I agree that the Sacred Ashes are a good proof of the Maker's existence.

No, they aren't. When you take Oghren with you to the ashes he will mention that the whole temple is surrounded by an extremely strong lyrium vein that may have influenced the, otherwise normal, ashes.

[Apophis2412]

AndreaDraco wrote...


... but, what about the Golden/Black City? Its very presence seems to suggest that an overarching entity (being it the Maker, another Old God or the major Elven divinity) existed, and that the Old Gods indeed sought to usurp it.

Actually no. Just because an object from a legend exists does not make the legend true. Furthermore there doesn't seem to be any evidence for the existence of the Golden City. Any mage can see that the Black city exists, but there is no indication that it was once golden.

[Grommash94]

That doesn't deny it though. It MAY have. Also, the Guardian himself, as well as the Gauntlet seem to indicate that the Maker exists.

[Grommash94]

Not to mention that Avernus mentions that the taint seems to originate in the Black City...which also seems to back up the claims of the darkspawn originating there from Tevinter Mages.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The black city is a mystery. We have only the Chantry's version of what happened there, but the truth is, we simply don't know. It could have always been like that, or, it could have been a "scientific" result of physical mortals trying to enter a non physical, non mortal realm, and it ended up as a sort of magical matter/anti-matter reaction, a result of the meeting of two opposites that cancel out or warp one another to achieve a universal equilibrim.



The Chantry, like many organized religions, needs some great cause/effect supreme being to explain it all. But it's only one theory to explain it. Knowledge of the Fade, it's mechanics, and such, is still a great mystery to everyone, even mages, and since the Chantry has a monopoly on information, no one really has the resources to delve into other theories. So exactly what the black/golden city is, and how it got there, is very much an open question.

[Apophis2412]

Grommash94 wrote...

That doesn't deny it though. It MAY have. Also, the Guardian himself, as well as the Gauntlet seem to indicate that the Maker exists.

Or Andraste was just a very powerful mage who made all of this stuff.

[Grommash94]

Made the Guardian?

[Original182]

Apophis2412 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

I agree that the Sacred Ashes are a good proof of the Maker's existence.

No, they aren't. When you take Oghren with you to the ashes he will mention that the whole temple is surrounded by an extremely strong lyrium vein that may have influenced the, otherwise normal, ashes.

Neither is this a convincing case. More evidence points to the healing powers of the ashes as divine. The lyrium theory is only made by an often drunk dwarf of a warrior caste.

There is some evidence that Andraste's ashes already started healing BEFORE it got to the temple, thus dismissing the lyrium theory.

But Aegis was not so easily destroyed. Havard lived and made his way, gravely wounded, to the gates of Minrathous to stop the execution. Too late. He found only the ashes of the prophet, left to the wind and rain. When his fingers touched the ash, his ears filled with song, and he saw a vision of Andraste dressed in cloth of starlight. She knelt at his side, saying, "Rise, Ageis of the Faith, the Maker shall never forget you so long as I remember."

His wounds healed instantly. And with new strength, Havard gathered up Andraste's remains and carried them safely back to the lands of the Alamarri.

http://dragonage.wik...avard.27s_Aegis

But if you want to dismiss EVERYTHING that hints to there being a Maker as entirely made up or Chantry propaganda, it's your choice.

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:03 .

[Apophis2412]

.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:05 .

[Apophis2412]

Original182 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

I agree that the Sacred Ashes are a good proof of the Maker's existence.

No, they aren't. When you take Oghren with you to the ashes he will mention that the whole temple is surrounded by an extremely strong lyrium vein that may have influenced the, otherwise normal, ashes.

Neither is this a convincing case. More evidence points to the healing powers of the ashes as divine. The lyrium theory is only made by an often drunk dwarf of a warrior caste.

There is some evidence that Andraste's ashes already started healing BEFORE it got to the temple, thus dismissing the lyrium theory.

But Aegis was not so easily destroyed. Havard lived and made his way, gravely wounded, to the gates of Minrathous to stop the execution. Too late. He found only the ashes of the prophet, left to the wind and rain. When his fingers touched the ash, his ears filled with song, and he saw a vision of Andraste dressed in cloth of starlight. She knelt at his side, saying, "Rise, Ageis of the Faith, the Maker shall never forget you so long as I remember."

His wounds healed instantly. And with new strength, Havard gathered up Andraste's remains and carried them safely back to the lands of the Alamarri.

http://dragonage.wik...avard.27s_Aegis

But if you want to dismiss EVERYTHING that hints to there being a Maker as entirely made up or Chantry propaganda, it's your choice.

As a historian I think that there are still two many unknows, like:
-Who wrote that text?
-How old is it?
- Are there any other historical sources that hint to the same thing?

EDIT: In another codex entry I found the source of that story. It's:  Thedas: Myths and Legends, by brother Genitivi.
. Because it is found in a book about myths and legends I really doubt that there are any other, more trustworthy, sources, like diaries or letters, to back it up. 


The beauty of the Dragon Age game is that it doesn't really prove or disprove the existence of a deity. This way people can roleplay both atheist and religious characters.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[Grommash94]

Well, when we meet Havard in the Gauntlet, he pretty much says about the same thing.

[Original182]

Apophis2412 wrote...

There are still two many unknows, like:
-Who wrote that text?
-How old is it?
- Are there any other historical sources that hint to the same thing?

Similar story researched by Brother Genetivi.

http://dragonage.wik...hes_of_Andraste

If you need 100% absolute proof that you can sense with your senses, then we also cannot prove we landed on the moon. And since NASA also controls all info about the moon landing, that means they could have made it up, and we can then safely attack and ridicule their information.

The beauty of the Dragon Age game is that it doesn't really prove or
disprove the existence of a deity. This way people can roleplay both
atheist and religious characters.

There are no absolutes. Maybe there is no soul of an Old God, and Morrigan was just merely capturing the Archdemon's "power", since we cannot see souls and we also cannot prove that they exist, as they are "invisible".

Or sometimes you just have to take the game's word for it, and say that the Maker and Old Gods exist.

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[Grommash94]

And, one could say that perhaps a mage summoned the spirits in the gauntlet and they are from the Fade....but the Guardian for example, seems to know quite a lot...such as secrets of the companions. AND we know that spirits and demons are not creative; they can only copy. So thus, even if they are from the Fade, they could've only copied REAL people.

[Apophis2412]

In another codex entry I found the source of that story. It's: Thedas: Myths and Legends, by brother Genitivi.

Because it is found in a book about myths and legends I really doubt that there are any other, more trustworthy, sources, like diaries or letters, to back it up.



And folklore is about as trustworthy as Oghren's observations.

[Grommash94]

We do know that some sort of dieties exist though. The connections between the Black City, the Darkspawn, digging up Old Gods....

[Original182]

OP used the word "assume" many times. Let's just spend more time assuming the Maker, Old Gods and Elven Gods exist, and discuss answers for the OP. Though I think these discussions never end well.

I can also smell The Angry One coming in here to post ...