5 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreaDraco]

I have a question. I pondered it for quite a time, I replayed portions of the game to search for an answer (to no avail), so I'm posting itright here hoping that maybe David or one of you wises know the answer.

Let's assume that the Chantry got everything right. If we believe at their version, the Maker created all things. Thus, he also created the Old Gods, probably cunning and malevolent dragons that lured men to corruption, convincing them that they were actual gods. If this is true, why? Because they really wanted to be gods? Because they wanted the Tevinter Lords to taint the Golden City?

However, let's assume that the Tevinter Lords were right. If the Old Gods were actual gods, and the Maker did not create them, who exactly is the Maker? Another Old God that wasn't corrupted and actually cared for mankind? And if not, what exactly is the relationship between the Old Gods and the Maker? Are they two totally different kinds of divinities?

And what if we assume the Elven mythology is correct? Are the Old Gods/Archdemons the Evil Gods that Fen'harel imprisoned in their underground reamls, luring men to them to get free?

[David Gaider]

AndreaDraco wrote...
I wasn't looking for a certain answer about the Maker. I like that the developers left something up in the air, without explaining everything with tons of exposition. I am more interested in the relationship between these three systems of belief (Chantry, Tevinter, Elves) and how they include/exclude each other.

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

The modern Chantry, however, does say that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed (though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again that the world will become the paradise He intended.

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 décembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[David Gaider]

Original182 wrote...
But how about the dwarven ancestors? The OP didn't mention them, but since you're on that subject, might as well tell us how you got the material for paragons and ancestors.

Well, the dwarves don't give much credence to the idea of gods to begin with. To them, the Stone is the closest they come -- it is all around them, and when they say they are the Children of the Stone they mean that literally. Like some ancient myths in our world claim that humanity was formed from clay, the dwarves believe that they are quite literally born of the stone. When someone dies, their spirit returns to the stone. Those who are worthy make the stone stronger, while those who are unworthy make the stone weaker. An important concept in a world where the strength of the roof over your head determines not only your own surviveability but also that of your family and community. The most worthy, the Paragons, are those who add the most to the Stone when they die. Thus they are worthy of reverance, and held up as an ideal for other dwarves to aspire to.

Much like the elven myths, however, the dwarven notion of the Stone -- while anthropomorphized considerably into a sort-of deity, not surprising considering the idea that the rock around the dwarves gives them everything they exist in -- doesn't contradict the idea that a creator might have created the Stone itself. They just don't believe that. The Stone is right there, around them and supporting them, and some creator...? Who is such a being to the dwarves?

Edit: Oh and David, can Andraste's Ashes cure a Grey Warden's taint?

The ashes are said to heal injuries and disease. If one subscribes to the idea that the Grey Warden's corruption is a literal disease, then they might. Certainly the blight is a disease (meaning the contagion that people can contract from the presence of darkspawn), but what the Grey Wardens do is on another level completely -- and either way there's no evidence to suggest that the ashes are even capable of affecting the darkspawn taint in any fashion. In my mind the best one could hope for is that the ashes could restore the body's degeneration at the hands of the taint, sort of "resetting the clock" as it were, but curing it entirely? Subject for speculation, I imagine, and it depends entirely on whether you imagine the ashes to be simply healing magic or some kind of catch-all "purifier".

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 décembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[David Gaider]

JaegerBane wrote...
The revelations you get when in the Dead Trenches seemed to make it clear the Taint is, in fact, some sort of disease, origin unknown (although the relationship to the Old Gods seems to be a lot more than coincidental).

I edited my comment to make it a bit more understandable (not quick enough, apparently) but I'm not aware of any such revelation pointing to the darkspawn originating from a simple disease. Even if you want to argue about what constitutes a disease, the fact remains that there's no evidence to suggest that the ashes can affect the taint even so.

[David Gaider]

Apophis2412 wrote...
Red Avernus' notes. There is most definately a link between the Black City and the Darkspawn.

You don't nead to read Avernus's notes to get that. The Chantry states that the first darkspawn were created when Tevinter magisters entered the Golden City -- tainting it and themselves. I'd say that qualifies as a link.

[David Gaider]

Smitridel wrote...
So..they co-existed with the Maker?
Wouldn't that make them independent of the Maker's plan and thus his equals in terms of "godhood"?
If so, who predates whom?

That's a good question.

Plus, if magic originates from the Old Gods, how come the Chantry's version put's the magic origins in the Maker's hands (if I'm not mistaken) ?

The Old Gods taught magic to humanity. They didn't create magic.