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[Apophis2412]

Original182 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

There are still two many unknows, like:
-Who wrote that text?
-How old is it?
- Are there any other historical sources that hint to the same thing?

Similar story researched by Brother Genetivi.

http://dragonage.wik...hes_of_Andraste

If you need 100% absolute proof that you can sense with your senses, then we also cannot prove we landed on the moon. And since NASA also controls all info about the moon landing, that means they could have made it up, and we can then safely attack and ridicule their information.

Do you know how difficult it would be to fake the moon landing? Not only are there more then enough pictures and moon rocks to prove it, but  do you realise how much money and people would have been involed in it?

I do not however accept the existence of a divine being when more simple explenations suffice.

[Apophis2412]

Grommash94 wrote...

And, one could say that perhaps a mage summoned the spirits in the gauntlet and they are from the Fade....but the Guardian for example, seems to know quite a lot...such as secrets of the companions. AND we know that spirits and demons are not creative; they can only copy. So thus, even if they are from the Fade, they could've only copied REAL people.

Are they spirits or really just Ilusions? Or perhaps they are echoes from the past like the illusions at Soldier's Peak.
The Guardian could really have been one of the first disciples of Andraste. That he still lives could be because of the Lyrium Vein.

[Grommash94]

AndreaDraco wrote...

I have a question. I pondered it for quite a time, I replayed portions of the game to search for an answer (to no avail), so I'm posting itright here hoping that maybe David or one of you wises know the answer.

Let's assume that the Chantry got everything right. If we believe at their version, the Maker created all things. Thus, he also created the Old Gods, probably cunning and malevolent dragons that lured men to corruption, convincing them that they were actual gods. If this is true, why? Because they really wanted to be gods? Because they wanted the Tevinter Lords to taint the Golden City?

However, let's assume that the Tevinter Lords were right. If the Old Gods were actual gods, and the Maker did not create them, who exactly is the Maker? Another Old God that wasn't corrupted and actually cared for mankind? And if not, what exactly is the relationship between the Old Gods and the Maker? Are they two totally different kinds of divinities?

And what if we assume the Elven mythology is correct? Are the Old Gods/Archdemons the Evil Gods that Fen'harel imprisoned in their underground reamls, luring men to them to get free?

Well, (based on the assumptions) I personally think that perhaps once the Old Gods were servants of the Maker, who eventually grew envious of his power. So they told the people of Thedas that they were true Gods and that the Maker doesn't exist. The Maker saw this, and imprisoned them, and left the world behind. The Old Gods then sought to usurp him, so they used the Tevinter mages.

If the Maker did not create them, then he is probably an Old God who cared for mankind, but eventually gave up. Or they could be two divinities, who knows.

If Elven mythology is correct...perhaps Fen'Harel is the maker...trapping both the Hold Gods and the spirits of the Fade out of the world.

[Grommash94]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

And, one could say that perhaps a mage summoned the spirits in the gauntlet and they are from the Fade....but the Guardian for example, seems to know quite a lot...such as secrets of the companions. AND we know that spirits and demons are not creative; they can only copy. So thus, even if they are from the Fade, they could've only copied REAL people.

Are they spirits or really just Ilusions? Or perhaps they are echoes from the past like the illusions at Soldier's Peak.
The Guardian could really have been one of the first disciples of Andraste. That he still lives could be because of the Lyrium Vein.

The echoes of the past did not speak to them. And we do not have any proof that lyrium can keep people alive for nearly a millenia.

[Apophis2412]

Grommash94 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

And, one could say that perhaps a mage summoned the spirits in the gauntlet and they are from the Fade....but the Guardian for example, seems to know quite a lot...such as secrets of the companions. AND we know that spirits and demons are not creative; they can only copy. So thus, even if they are from the Fade, they could've only copied REAL people.

Are they spirits or really just Ilusions? Or perhaps they are echoes from the past like the illusions at Soldier's Peak.
The Guardian could really have been one of the first disciples of Andraste. That he still lives could be because of the Lyrium Vein.

The echoes of the past did not speak to them. And we do not have any proof that lyrium can keep people alive for nearly a millenia.

But magic can prolong life, as evidenced by Avernus.


Another intersting thought: What if the Elven gods and Old gods are simply aspects of the same supreme being? Kind of like the Holy Trinity (son, Father,  Holy Ghost) or the ancient Egyptian gods Ra, (Chepri: Dawn, Ra: noon, Atoem: Dusk) or Hathor (Bast: household, Hather: fun, Sachmet: vengeance)

Modifié par Apophis2412, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:44 .

[Grommash94]

Avernus was alive for 400 or so years. And he said that his magic wouldn't sustain him much longer.



And that was on HIMSELF. The Guardian himself is not a mage.

[Grommash94]

And the different aspects idea is a possibility...but not for the elven gods. Fen'Harel trapped the other elven gods...unlikely that he would do that since they part of the same supreme being. Also, when one aspect is harmed, all others are as well....but that wouldn't be the case for the Old Gods, since five of them are dead.

[Smitridel]

Hmm, after having read some interesting views/posts on the whole theological mystery presented in game..

May I remind you all that the fundamental truth behind the Chantry's teachings is the globalization of the same religion - as being the only way that the Maker would turn his eyes on humanity again.

That point on it's own, creates a lack of trustworthiness on the truths behind the Chantry's teaching, seeing that it's sole purpose is to spread the religion further and further eradicating all else as false.
Now that doesn't prove the existence or lack thereof, of the Maker, just that the whole Chantry system of principles, is unethical to say the least.

Not to mention, that probably Andraste was actually a powerfull enchantress, who acted as a political figure in a time of rebellion. However the forementioned creates another interesting question: 

- That being said, where does magic come from? What is magic? What are it's origins and why people are
   susceptible to it?





P.S. Funny enough, but this whole debate between the Old Gods and the Maker, actually reminds me the..."intriguing" situation in which Greeks were, when Christianity was starting to spread out calling them to deny the Twelve Gods of Olympus as false..

Modifié par Smitridel, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:52 .

[Original182]

Smitridel wrote...

Not to mention, that probably Andraste was actually a powerfull enchantress, who acted as a political figure in a time of rebellion. However the forementioned creates another interesting question:

Even in the Dalish history, supposedly free from "Chantry tampering", never once mentioned Andraste as a mage. All that Lanaya said was their elf ancestor joined with Andraste in her rebellion.
There is also nothing about Andraste overpowering the Telvinter with spells.
The only thing the Guardian mentioned about Andraste was that she meditates and fasts without food and water for weeks.

The only thing hinting that Andraste was a mage was a dubious book that you can gift to Wynne. If you accept that book 100% but not the Chantry, well, that would be hilarious.

- That being said, where does magic come from? What is magic? What are it's origins and why people are
   susceptible to it?

Is that a Heroes reference?

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 03:58 .

[Apophis2412]

Original182 wrote...



The only thing hinting that Andraste was a mage was a dubious book that you can gift to Wynne. If you accept that book 100% but not the Chantry, well, that would be hilarious.

What about the book: The search for the True Prophet?

""The Search for the True Prophet:" This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, and not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."" from a fire

Modifié par Apophis2412, 28 décembre 2009 - 04:02 .

[Grommash94]

Andraste COULD have been a mage true. But nothing but that book claims it..not even the Dalish.

[Taleroth]

Original182 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

There are still two many unknows, like:
-Who wrote that text?
-How old is it?
- Are there any other historical sources that hint to the same thing?

Similar story researched by Brother Genetivi.

http://dragonage.wik...hes_of_Andraste

If you need 100% absolute proof that you can sense with your senses, then we also cannot prove we landed on the moon. And since NASA also controls all info about the moon landing, that means they could have made it up, and we can then safely attack and ridicule their information.

How else did the corner reflectors get there?  Naturally occuring?

Modifié par Taleroth, 28 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[slash197]

There's another example of someone extending their life with magic: Zathrian. He'd been alive for centuries as well, without looking like a raisin. Maybe the Guardian's life was bound to something, just as Zathrian's was bound to the curse.

[Grommash94]

But that still doesn't explain how he knew so much about people he had just met...



Yet, if he WAS bound to something..the question is what....

[AndreaDraco]

P.S. Funny enough, but this whole debate between the Old Gods and the Maker, actually reminds me the..."intriguing" situation in which Greeks were, when Christianity was starting to spread out calling them to deny the Twelve Gods of Olympus as false..

This is exactly the consideration from which my questions stemmed.

I'll try to clear up my reasoning.

Aside from the Dwarves who worship their ancestors, there are (at least that we know of) three past or present major beliefs in Thedas: the Chantry, the old Tevinter religion and the Elven lore. As far as I see it, the Tevinter religion and the Elven mythology aren't mutually exclusive, because the Old Gods of Tevinter may well be the evil divinities mentioned by Elven lore, the ones locked away by Fen'harel the Dread Wolf. Of course this is a speculation, but I haven't seen any proof that this parellel is wrong.

About the Old Gods, David Gaider said (here) that:

The Old Gods were trapped in their ancient prisons underneath the
earth. Their minds, however, roamed the Fade -- presumably the same as
any dreamer's might -- and contacted the first magisters (who back then
were known as "dreamers" and had learned on their own to walk the Fade
as mages do now).

So they weren't spirits, really, no. Spirits are creatures that are native to the Fade.

So, if this is true, the Old Gods were actual beings - dragons, probably - with an intelligence so developed that they were able to lure men and corrupt them, something that it is also true for Elven lore: the evil gods were malevolent entities that were imprisoned underground (as per Fen'harel myth).

The problems begin when one takes into account the Chantry version. Neither the Tevinter religion nor the Elven lore mentioned a Maker, a uber-god that created all things. However, the Chant of Light does. So, to sum it up, while both the Tevinter religion and Elven lore can explain the darkspawn and the Blights (the Golden City could have been the seat of the good gods of the Elves, for example, or only a sacred place of power, or even the seat of another Old God who cared for mankind), these two beliefs are mutually exclusive with the Chant of Light.

They all may be false. But if true, only some of them can be true: not all three.

[Grommash94]

AndreaDraco wrote...


The problems begin when one takes into account the Chantry version. Neither the Tevinter religion nor the Elven lore mentioned a Maker, a uber-god that created all things. However, the Chant of Light does. So, to sum it up, while both the Tevinter religion and Elven lore can explain the darkspawn and the Blights (the Golden City could have been the seat of the good gods of the Elves, for example, or only a sacred place of power, or even the seat of another Old God who cared for mankind), these two beliefs are mutually exclusive with the Chant of Light.

They all may be false. But if true, only some of them can be true: not all three.

Yet, if the Golden city was a seat of the good gods of the elves...it doesn't explain how it was corrupted into the Black City...for if it was their seat, they would have been TRAPPED THERE, so when the Tevinter Mages came in, they would have been freed.

I doubt there was a benevolent Old God though.

[Grommash94]

And I dunno, Fen'Harel certainly sounds like the Maker...trapping spirits (good Elf gods) in the Fade and the Old Gods (evil Elf gods) in the earth..

[Asylumer]

Grommash94 wrote...

The Guardian himself, as well as the Gauntlet seem to indicate that the Maker exists.

There's reason to believe that the Guardian was either a faith spirit or a spirit "abomination" like Wynne. As a being driven by abstract concepts it would be interested in preserving the idea of the Maker despite its truth or untruth. Just because the Temple displayed powerful magic doesn't mean that The Maker (as a being attributed incredible magic) was the one responsible for what we see there. His methods are also very similar to another Fade being you encounter in the game, so I was less than impressed by his display of "divinity."

As has been pointed out, the fact that there is a Black City also does not mean there was once a Golden City, that part looks to be simple conjecture on the part of priests fitting reality to their construct, much like the older religions placed divine significane behind the "movement" of our sun. Of course those beliefs seem utterly preposterous to us now that we can observe that the sun is relatively stationary and we, in fact, are the ones moving.

Conclusion: We do not have the evidence to determine whether or not the Maker exists, or even what the Maker actually is. Perhaps over the course of the franchise we'll uncover more information surrounding the events behind the Chantry's creation and be able to put together an answer that stands up to scrutiny.

[AndreaDraco]

I wasn't looking for a certain answer about the Maker. I like that the developers left something up in the air, without explaining everything with tons of exposition. I am more interested in the relationship between these three systems of belief (Chantry, Tevinter, Elves) and how they include/exclude each other.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

The Archdemon is an entity that can be called god, and evil people would worshiped him under the right circumstances, as some of them serve under high-dragons already. Darkspawn seems to see him that way for once. He acts pretty stupid in the game, to make the game playable, but lore-wise I believe there are other aspects behind his story that aren't shown, So there you have it, one god entity. It wouldn't be that strange if there were other gods around, would it?

Modifié par Elvhen Veluthil, 28 décembre 2009 - 06:29 .

[Smitridel]

It all comes down to what *may* be true about the Maker and what the Chantry claims.

Given the fact that this has a significant and obvious hint to real religion, they may as well be two different viewpoints.



However what is actually obvious, is that the Chantry is trying to seize all kinds of power.

In some places (Orlais) that happens in profound ways, where in Ferelden they use more subtle ways, such as spreading out the obsolete truths against mages and generally everything that could pose a threat against Chantry authority/control.

[robertthebard]

I just want to interject something interesting here, peruse and dismiss as you will:



In the Dalish origin, the cave is remarked to be human, but with elven flare. The ruins in the Brecelian Forest invoke similar comments from Morrigan. The construction seems human, with elven trappings. Taken individually, these may mean absolutely nothing. However, I find it interesting that the ruins in the forest seem to be one of the temples that the elves used for the inspiration for Leliana's song. You can garner some of this information from the phylactery that gives you the Arcane Warrior spec. There is also the ritual at the pool, which opens a chamber that does indeed seem dedicated to that very purpose. The phylactery recalls there being both humans and elves there, and that they were fighting, and possibly fighting together against something else.



Hypothesis, disect at will, I have errands to run: So suppose that the aforementioned theory is correct, and the elven gods and the old gods are the same gods. Also suppose that these civilizations were not as seperate at one point as we were led to believe. The Dalish blame the Tevinter Imperium for "quickening" their blood, causing them to lose their immortality. However, what if the curse had a very different connotation than what is given in the legends? Suppose that the quickening is a side effect of a ritual that did indeed allow access to the Golden City, and that this ritual corrupted the City, and "cursed" the elves. Discuss.

[AndreaDraco]

I noticed the remarks about the ruins being human, both times. Your interpretation may be valid, but, don't ask me why because I don't know, I always gathered from them that the early elves used to live in human-constructed buildings, maybe from an even more ancient population?



If the Codex mentioned that the Forgotten Ones, "gods of terror and malice, spite and pestilence" were seven, I'd be even more sure that the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones of the Elven Pantheon. Since this is the hypothesis toward which I lean the most, it remains only to be seen what happened to the other nine Elven gods (like Elgar'nan or Falon'din) and what relationship do they have with the Chantry's Maker, if it exists at all.



Another thing: since the ancient documents are long lost, maybe the Tevinter Imperium and the Elves battled for religious disputes? Maybe the Tevinters adored the Forgotten Ones (= Old Gods) and couldn't stand the Elves and their positive numes.



Wild speculation: Elven mythology says that humans came from the north. But Robert rises an interesting point - the human architecture in two supposedly elven temples. What it the Tevinter Imperium originally stemmed from Elves who rejected the Right Gods to worship the Forgotten Ones?

[0mar]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The black city is a mystery. We have only the Chantry's version of what happened there, but the truth is, we simply don't know. It could have always been like that, or, it could have been a "scientific" result of physical mortals trying to enter a non physical, non mortal realm, and it ended up as a sort of magical matter/anti-matter reaction, a result of the meeting of two opposites that cancel out or warp one another to achieve a universal equilibrim. 

The Tevinter Empire would have records of the Black City once being Golden.  After all, they were the first ones to actually see it and subsequently taint it.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

robertthebard wrote...

I just want to interject something interesting here, peruse and dismiss as you will:

In the Dalish origin, the cave is remarked to be human, but with elven flare. The ruins in the Brecelian Forest invoke similar comments from Morrigan. The construction seems human, with elven trappings. Taken individually, these may mean absolutely nothing. However, I find it interesting that the ruins in the forest seem to be one of the temples that the elves used for the inspiration for Leliana's song. You can garner some of this information from the phylactery that gives you the Arcane Warrior spec. There is also the ritual at the pool, which opens a chamber that does indeed seem dedicated to that very purpose. The phylactery recalls there being both humans and elves there, and that they were fighting, and possibly fighting together against something else.

Hypothesis, disect at will, I have errands to run: So suppose that the aforementioned theory is correct, and the elven gods and the old gods are the same gods. Also suppose that these civilizations were not as seperate at one point as we were led to believe. The Dalish blame the Tevinter Imperium for "quickening" their blood, causing them to lose their immortality. However, what if the curse had a very different connotation than what is given in the legends? Suppose that the quickening is a side effect of a ritual that did indeed allow access to the Golden City, and that this ritual corrupted the City, and "cursed" the elves. Discuss.

The only part the elven slaves played during the blood magic ritual that opened the rift through the Veil was to fuel the ritual with their blood and die in the process. I don't know about the ruins though, they either were ancient elven buildings utilized latter by the Imperium, or they were build by elven artisan slavers working for the Imperium mages. Who knows.

Now that I think about it, almost everything of interest in the lore is presented with such a way that one can't be sure about something, because the one that says it belong to this or that faction. Isn't there a faction of historians in Thedas that we can take their saying for what they are?