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[Whisa]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Hey guys can we stop entering the visibility of the Black City while in the fade as evidence? The Fade is the realm of dreams and spirits where reality is pretty much nothing but an abstract concept and everything around you was shaped by either demons trying to decieve you or spirits trying to comfort you. The Tevinter mages tried to map the fade but gave up because it changed completely and didnt follow any natural laws. Saying "I saw it in the fade" is evidence is a lot like saying that "i saw it in a dream" is evedince.

I think the difference in this one is that it IS a constant.  It's always there and it's always the same distance from you no matter where you are.

"The Black City is the one constant geographical feature within the Fade.
At any time, a dreamer or mage can look up and see it in the sky,
always in the distance.
"

"Every point in the Fade is equidistant from the Black City.
"

From the codex ^^;


So this suggests that while demons do indeed shape the fade and for the most part show you what they think you want to see, there are places of the fade even they can't control.  And, iirc, demons are even scared of the city, so the fact that it is there when it's one thing they'd definately not want to be reminded of suggests something else has more power of it than them.  Or it could just be a limit on their power, without someone being over them all.

[Orogun01]

Whisa wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Hey guys can we stop entering the visibility of the Black City while in the fade as evidence? The Fade is the realm of dreams and spirits where reality is pretty much nothing but an abstract concept and everything around you was shaped by either demons trying to decieve you or spirits trying to comfort you. The Tevinter mages tried to map the fade but gave up because it changed completely and didnt follow any natural laws. Saying "I saw it in the fade" is evidence is a lot like saying that "i saw it in a dream" is evedince.

I think the difference in this one is that it IS a constant.  It's always there and it's always the same distance from you no matter where you are.

"The Black City is the one constant geographical feature within the Fade.
At any time, a dreamer or mage can look up and see it in the sky,
always in the distance.
"

"Every point in the Fade is equidistant from the Black City.
"

From the codex ^^;


So this suggests that while demons do indeed shape the fade and for the most part show you what they think you want to see, there are places of the fade even they can't control.  And, iirc, demons are even scared of the city, so the fact that it is there when it's one thing they'd definately not want to be reminded of suggests something else has more power of it than them.  Or it could just be a limit on their power, without someone being over them all.

That is if demons are the only thing that controls the Fade, so far humans are also a know quantity to do the same (specially mages). If humans could unconsciously affect the Fade it would explain why the Black City appears since it is a widespread belief.

[Whisa]

Orogun01 wrote...

Whisa wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Hey guys can we stop entering the visibility of the Black City while in the fade as evidence? The Fade is the realm of dreams and spirits where reality is pretty much nothing but an abstract concept and everything around you was shaped by either demons trying to decieve you or spirits trying to comfort you. The Tevinter mages tried to map the fade but gave up because it changed completely and didnt follow any natural laws. Saying "I saw it in the fade" is evidence is a lot like saying that "i saw it in a dream" is evedince.

I think the difference in this one is that it IS a constant.  It's always there and it's always the same distance from you no matter where you are.

"The Black City is the one constant geographical feature within the Fade.
At any time, a dreamer or mage can look up and see it in the sky,
always in the distance.
"

"Every point in the Fade is equidistant from the Black City.
"

From the codex ^^;


So this suggests that while demons do indeed shape the fade and for the most part show you what they think you want to see, there are places of the fade even they can't control.  And, iirc, demons are even scared of the city, so the fact that it is there when it's one thing they'd definately not want to be reminded of suggests something else has more power of it than them.  Or it could just be a limit on their power, without someone being over them all.

That is if demons are the only thing that controls the Fade, so far humans are also a know quantity to do the same (specially mages). If humans could unconsciously affect the Fade it would explain why the Black City appears since it is a widespread belief.

I've seen humans being able to ENTER the fade, but influence it?  There a source for that?  I haven't been able to find anything that says they have any ability to control it, simply to wander it as mages/ dreamers and, in the case of mages, draw power from it.

[Whisa]

yay double

Modifié par Whisa, 28 décembre 2009 - 10:22 .

[Grommash94]

Humans can affect the fade...but I doubt that they can affect it to that scale...not to mention Avernus' notes suggest something within the Black City that is the key to the darkspawn taint.

[Smitridel]

Hmm..Remember the mage's gathering at the Ostagar HQ?
When you ask the Templars guarding the whole bunch of them, they say that they are in the Fade, " maybe hunting for darkspawn etc".

Could that have something to do with the Black City and in it's turn, with the Darkspawn (in a less theoretical/mythological way and a more practical way)?

Modifié par Smitridel, 28 décembre 2009 - 10:56 .

[robertthebard]

Smitridel wrote...

Hmm..Remember the mage's gathering at the Ostagar HQ?
When you ask the Templars guarding the whole bunch of them, they say that they are in the Fade, " maybe hunting for darkspawn etc".

Could that have something to do with the Black City and in it's turn, with the Darkspawn (in a less theoretical/mythological way and a more practical way)?

No, it just shows how much Templars don't know about the Fade.

[Smitridel]

Um..So you reject the possibility that the mages actually told them what they were about to do?



I'm just saying if it's a hint..

[AndreaDraco]

robertthebard wrote...

Smitridel wrote...

Hmm..Remember the mage's gathering at the Ostagar HQ?
When you ask the Templars guarding the whole bunch of them, they say that they are in the Fade, " maybe hunting for darkspawn etc".

Could that have something to do with the Black City and in it's turn, with the Darkspawn (in a less theoretical/mythological way and a more practical way)?

No, it just shows how much Templars don't know about the Fade.

I agree. That statement probably originates by prejudice and ignorance on the templars' part. But I must admit that the prospect of this being true is quite fascinating and I always wondered what the heck the mages were doing in the Fade

[robertthebard]

AndreaDraco wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Smitridel wrote...

Hmm..Remember the mage's gathering at the Ostagar HQ?
When you ask the Templars guarding the whole bunch of them, they say that they are in the Fade, " maybe hunting for darkspawn etc".

Could that have something to do with the Black City and in it's turn, with the Darkspawn (in a less theoretical/mythological way and a more practical way)?

No, it just shows how much Templars don't know about the Fade.

I agree. That statement probably originates by prejudice and ignorance on the templars' part. But I must admit that the prospect of this being true is quite fascinating and I always wondered what the heck the mages were doing in the Fade

Wynne talks about going into the Fade for magical training.  I'm not sure what's up with that however.

[Squiggles1334]

robertthebard wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Smitridel wrote...

Hmm..Remember the mage's gathering at the Ostagar HQ?
When you ask the Templars guarding the whole bunch of them, they say that they are in the Fade, " maybe hunting for darkspawn etc".

Could that have something to do with the Black City and in it's turn, with the Darkspawn (in a less theoretical/mythological way and a more practical way)?

No, it just shows how much Templars don't know about the Fade.

I agree. That statement probably originates by prejudice and ignorance on the templars' part. But I must admit that the prospect of this being true is quite fascinating and I always wondered what the heck the mages were doing in the Fade

Wynne talks about going into the Fade for magical training.  I'm not sure what's up with that however.

Maybe just a poorly worded description of the Harrowing?

[Taritu]

It seems clear that at some point you have to figure out a way to get to the Black City. Incredibly dangerous, of course, but if I were a mage it would irresistable. It seems likely the answers are there. The problem is how to get there without using blood magic, since that seems like a very bad idea. (Perhaps good spirits could assist, adding to the effect of lyrium. If Demons can take you into the fade, why not good spirits as well?)



Fascinating answers David, very interesting.

[Asylumer]

Whisa wrote...

I've seen humans being able to ENTER the fade, but influence it?  There a source for that?  I haven't been able to find anything that says they have any ability to control it, simply to wander it as mages/ dreamers and, in the case of mages, draw power from it.

The Valor spirit from the Mage Origin's Harrowing states something to the effect of Mages being the only mortals able to shape reality as he does and he can be influenced/commanded by using Willpower.

[Whisa]

Asylumer wrote...

Whisa wrote...

I've seen humans being able to ENTER the fade, but influence it?  There a source for that?  I haven't been able to find anything that says they have any ability to control it, simply to wander it as mages/ dreamers and, in the case of mages, draw power from it.

The Valor spirit from the Mage Origin's Harrowing states something to the effect of Mages being the only mortals able to shape reality as he does and he can be influenced/commanded by using Willpower.

I took that more to mean influencing things outside of the Fade.  For example, conjuring fireballs, storms, blizzards, shapeshifting, ect.  That's inlfuencing reality without touching on changing the look of the Fade.

[JaegerBane]

David Gaider wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
The revelations you get when in the Dead Trenches seemed to make it clear the Taint is, in fact, some sort of disease, origin unknown (although the relationship to the Old Gods seems to be a lot more than coincidental).

I edited my comment to make it a bit more understandable (not quick enough, apparently) but I'm not aware of any such revelation pointing to the darkspawn originating from a simple disease. Even if you want to argue about what constitutes a disease, the fact remains that there's no evidence to suggest that the ashes can affect the taint even so.

I wouldn't exactly call the Taint a 'simple disease', particularly when it has the potential to turn women into giant multi-tentacled fatties, but I don't understand where the Chantry's idea of holy hellspawn fits in to what we *know* about the Darkspawn. From what we know the existing Darkspawn are coming from the Broodmothers.

I realise The Chantry says they invaded the Golden City an got turned into Darkspawn and whtnot, but frankly, I distrust a lot of what the Chantry says on the matter. I mean, the entire hatred of Blood Magic appears to stem from someon's interpretation of a psalm or something, and the effectiveness of the Chantry's entire approach to 'protecting' people from Mages is debatable at best.

I realise that this is your Universe David, so presumably you know the truth, but I'm just going on what is said.

[dan107]

David Gaider wrote...
The ashes are said to heal injuries and disease. If one subscribes to the idea that the Grey Warden's corruption is a literal disease, then they might. Certainly the blight is a disease (meaning the contagion that people can contract from the presence of darkspawn), but what the Grey Wardens do is on another level completely -- and either way there's no evidence to suggest that the ashes are even capable of affecting the darkspawn taint in any fashion. In my mind the best one could hope for is that the ashes could restore the body's degeneration at the hands of the taint, sort of "resetting the clock" as it were, but curing it entirely? Subject for speculation, I imagine, and it depends entirely on whether you imagine the ashes to be simply healing magic or some kind of catch-all "purifier".

I've been wondering about the ashes for a while. You've been emphasizing for years now starting on the old forums that there is no proof of the Maker and that everything Chantry related is a matter of faith. So how do you reconcile that with the fact that the ashes instantly and miraculously cure Arl Eamon? Seems like that's proof positive that The Chantry was right about Andraste. Doesn't that kind of destroy the ambiguity that you've done so much to build up?

By the way, am I the only one that thinks that a much more interesting and original end to that quest would be for you to sprinkle the ashes, and have absolutely nothing happen? THAT would've raised some interesting questions, as opposed to the standard get-unique-miracle-cure-for-sick-guy-who's-crucial-for-plot-advancement shtick?

Modifié par dan107, 29 décembre 2009 - 12:16 .

[JaegerBane]

dan107 wrote...

I've been wondering about the ashes for a while. You've been emphasizing for years now starting on the old forums that there is no proof of the Maker and that everything Chantry related is a matter of faith. So how do you reconcile that with the fact that the ashes instantly and miraculously cure Arl Eamon? Seems like that's proof positive that The Chantry was right about Andraste. Doesn't that kind of destroy the ambiguity that you've done so much to build up?

By the way, am I the only one that thinks that a much more interesting and original end to that quest would be for you to sprinkle the ashes, and have absolutely nothing happen? THAT would've raised some interesting questions, as opposed to the standard get-unique-miracle-cure-for-sick-guy-who's-crucial-for-plot-advancement shtick?

I think it's fairly clear that the ashes themselves had some sort of supernatural power. I mean, they were guarded by what were obviously magical traps and a guy who'd lived for centuries. Whether that power came from The Maker or whatever is still up in the air.

[TheMadCat]

If I remember correctly Ohgren said something about a huge amount of lyrium in the walls in the room containing the ashes. Perhaps such a long exposure to so much lyrium caused the ashes to gain their "magical" properties? Just a shot in the dark really, looking for another possible explanation that doesn't completely confirm the Maker's existence and lend much more credibility to the Chanty's word, neither of which I don't think were ever meant to come about looking at the lore and Gaider's past comments.

[JaegerBane]

TheMadCat wrote...

If I remember correctly Ohgren said something about a huge amount of lyrium in the walls in the room containing the ashes. Perhaps such a long exposure to so much lyrium caused the ashes to gain their "magical" properties? Just a shot in the dark really, looking for another possible explanation that doesn't completely confirm the Maker's existence and lend much more credibility to the Chanty's word, neither of which I don't think were ever meant to come about looking at the lore and Gaider's past comments.

For all we know the ashes themselves were some exotic form of Lyrium.

[TheMadCat]

Perhaps, personally I think there is enough evidence to say those are indeed the ashes of Andraste along with the fact I'm sure one could tell the difference of the color and texture between some sort of lyrium dust and ashes. Exactly what gave the ashes their magical proprieties I don't think is as cut and dry as a few have made it to be though. Perhaps those carrying her ashes mixed them with something to give the perception that she did indeed have the eyes of the Maker, perhaps the lyrium exposure for so many centuries, maybe it truly was blessed by the Maker.

[Lord Phoebus]

It seems to me that none of the spirits or demons in the game believe in the maker.  In the orphanage, when Ser Otto invokes the Maker's name, the Rage Demon reponds, "Fool! There is no Maker!" or something to that effect.  It could have just been an angry demon trying to shake Ser Otto's concentration, but it didn't say, your Maker can't save you, or it has no power over me, it's dead, etc.; it said the maker doesn't exist.  Flemeth, doesn't believe what the chantry preaches and she has the knowledge of a demon.  I don't recall any of the other demons, abominations or spirits in the game making any mention of the maker.  If they were created by the maker (serving the same purpose as Angels, Demons and Djinn) you would assume that they would be cognisant of him and have fear or respect of him.

As for Andraste's ashes, you don't really know if Andraste was just a human  she could have been an abomination (maybe the Maker was the Demon/Spirit possessing her).  You also don't know what effect the ashes of an abomination would have as a medication or if the Lyrium in the temple transmuted the ashes.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 29 décembre 2009 - 01:19 .

[bobsmyuncle]

Lord Phoebus wrote...
As for Andraste's ashes, you don't really know if Andraste was just a human  she could have been an abomination (maybe the Maker was the Demon/Spirit possessing her). 

Hello and welcome to my theory box. This is my new favorite theory.

The Maker's bride, indeed!

[slash197]

Asylumer wrote...

Whisa wrote...

I've seen humans being able to ENTER the fade, but influence it?  There a source for that?  I haven't been able to find anything that says they have any ability to control it, simply to wander it as mages/ dreamers and, in the case of mages, draw power from it.

The Valor spirit from the Mage Origin's Harrowing states something to the effect of Mages being the only mortals able to shape reality as he does and he can be influenced/commanded by using Willpower.

I think that was more him aknowledging a strong will, which is important when resisting demons.

[Smitridel]

I sometimes wonder how would David Gaider react, sitting on his desk seeing us all entangled in his universe, with all our existential questions and debates trying to reach, define and explore the obscure truths which may (or may not) be even known to him..

Modifié par Smitridel, 29 décembre 2009 - 02:09 .

[robertthebard]

Smitridel wrote...

I sometimes wonder how would David Gaider react, sitting on his desk seeing us all entangled in his universe, with all our existential questions and debates trying to reach, define and explore the obscure truths which may (or may not) be even known to him..

As a writer, and somebody that built a decent module for NWN's, I can tell you that the Universe is fairly fleshed out for DA.  It has to be.  However, regarding sitting at his desk laughing at us fishing around, yeah.  I can for sure see that.