121 réponses à ce sujet

[Asylumer]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

As for Andraste's ashes, you don't really know if Andraste was just a human  she could have been an abomination (maybe the Maker was the Demon/Spirit possessing her).

Poor Maferas... his wife had another man in her 24/7

[j_j_m]

Original182 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

I agree that the Sacred Ashes are a good proof of the Maker's existence.

No, they aren't. When you take Oghren with you to the ashes he will mention that the whole temple is surrounded by an extremely strong lyrium vein that may have influenced the, otherwise normal, ashes.

Neither is this a convincing case. More evidence points to the healing powers of the ashes as divine. The lyrium theory is only made by an often drunk dwarf of a warrior caste.

There is some evidence that Andraste's ashes already started healing BEFORE it got to the temple, thus dismissing the lyrium theory.

But Aegis was not so easily destroyed. Havard lived and made his way, gravely wounded, to the gates of Minrathous to stop the execution. Too late. He found only the ashes of the prophet, left to the wind and rain. When his fingers touched the ash, his ears filled with song, and he saw a vision of Andraste dressed in cloth of starlight. She knelt at his side, saying, "Rise, Ageis of the Faith, the Maker shall never forget you so long as I remember."

His wounds healed instantly. And with new strength, Havard gathered up Andraste's remains and carried them safely back to the lands of the Alamarri.

http://dragonage.wik...avard.27s_Aegis

But if you want to dismiss EVERYTHING that hints to there being a Maker as entirely made up or Chantry propaganda, it's your choice.

Still, they originate from Andraste, not from the Maker. There is a gift item (The Search for the True Prophet) that says Andraste was a powerful mage. It was saved from fire, and kept in the Dwarven library, which adds up suspicion. There is a possibility she was indeed that, and we don't know the true extent of her powers. You cannot trust anything originating from Andraste to be 100% proof of the Maker's existence.

Lord Phoebus wrote...

or if the Lyrium in the temple transmuted the ashes.

We
can rule that out, because the ashes had its powers before being
brought to the temple. But the lyrium could explain some of the other
happenings at the temple.

Modifié par j_j_m, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:59 .

[Asylumer]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

It seems to me that none of the spirits or demons in the game believe in the maker.  In the orphanage, when Ser Otto invokes the Maker's name, the Rage Demon reponds, "Fool! There is no Maker!" or something to that effect.  It could have just been an angry demon trying to shake Ser Otto's concentration, but it didn't say, your Maker can't save you, or it has no power over me, it's dead, etc.; it said the maker doesn't exist.

Specifically it says:

"The Maker? There is no Maker! There is no Golden City! But there are demons, yesss...."

Clearly he screwed up that last part. What he meant to say was: "there is only Zuul!"

[TheMadCat]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

Lord Phoebus wrote...
As for Andraste's ashes, you don't really know if Andraste was just a human  she could have been an abomination (maybe the Maker was the Demon/Spirit possessing her). 

Hello and welcome to my theory box. This is my new favorite theory.

The Maker's bride, indeed!

Interesting theory, not sure if it has much in the way of legs to stand on though. At the very least the stories of her actions don't seem to fit the mold of what you typically see from one possessed by a demon. Obviously those are stories and obviously there can be exceptions, but that along with the fact she had so many followers and how much magic did/does seem to surround her I would think that atleast someone would have hinted at the fact that she was an abomination, they do not appear to be subtle about it after all.

A spirit like the one possessing Wynne though, that I'd believe.

[Original182]

TheMadCat wrote...

Interesting theory, not sure if it has much in the way of legs to stand on though. At the very least the stories of her actions don't seem to fit the mold of what you typically see from one possessed by a demon. Obviously those are stories and obviously there can be exceptions, but that along with the fact she had so many followers and how much magic did/does seem to surround her I would think that atleast someone would have hinted at the fact that she was an abomination, they do not appear to be subtle about it after all.

A spirit like the one possessing Wynne though, that I'd believe.

It's a nice theory, but it's unlikely.
It is because Wynne is a mage that it acts as a beacon for the Spirit of Faith to find her. Andraste was not a mage, so chances of a Spirit finding her is probably nil.
Wynne has the Spirit of Faith, but she doesn't go around telling people it's the Maker. Andraste then also, should be perceptive enough to know the difference between a Maker and a Spirit of Faith, if you want to use the theory that she was a mage.

Modifié par Original182, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:14 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Original182 wrote...

It is because Wynne is a mage that it acts as a beacon for the Spirit of Faith to find her. Andraste was not a mage, so chances of a Spirit finding her is probably nil.

There's a book that suggests she's a mage.  It doesn't prove that she's a mage, but there's no more convincing evidence that she isn't a mage either. 

Wynne has the Spirit of Faith, but she doesn't go around telling people it's the Maker. Andraste then also, should be perceptive enough to know the difference between a Maker and a Spirit of Faith, if you want to use the theory that she was a mage.

Wynne was also trained as a mage from an early age, she knows a lot about the inhabitants of the fade.  When she was a child she had dreams and didn't know what they meant.  What if Andraste wasn't trained, but was a mage, and a spirit latched on to her?  She hears whispers, but because she doesn't know what they are because she doesn't know what she is.  I'm not sure it wasn't a demon either, fighting a scortched earth campaign to destroy an empire and creating a religion centered on it sounds like something a pride demon would consider fun.  Andraste wasn't a peaceful prophet, she was a fire and brimstone one.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[TheMadCat]

Eh, it's tough to sort out the real facts when it comes to Andraste, at least what Gaider has given us to chew on in-game. There was obviously something special about her and considering the Chantry's stance on magic I'm sure something about their prophet being a mage would be suppressed to the full extent of their power, that of course is even if they know. Considering magic is real in Thedas, and Andraste was supposedly an extraordinary person and a piece of lore in-game "suggesting" it, I think there is some chance she could have been a mage.

As for the spirit comment and saying that I'd believe it. What it meant literally was if Gaider came here and said Andraste was a mage possessed by a spirit and established it as lore, going off of what little we know in terms of truth the I can do good enough connecting the dots, while a demon, again knowing what we know, is a bit to much of a stretch.

I still think the best explanation at the moment is either the lyrium in the room contaminating the ashes and giving them their magical properties or her followers adding something to her ashes to sort of increase her legend and solidify the belief that she truly held the Maker's gaze.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Taritu]

She used to spend weeks communing with "the maker" without food. That sounds like a meditative fast to me. Or, in a world with magic, perhaps a spirit journey into the fade? No way of knowing, but if we want to believe she's mage of sorts, there is evidence.



Wynne is proof of "good" spirits inhabiting mages and giving them more power than they'd normally have (not a lot more in Wynne's case, but then it's keeping her alive too). A really powerful spirit might have helped Andraste.



Or not, it's only a theory. No way of knowing.



But maybe we'll get to visit the Dark City in DA3. There is some reason to believe we'll get to visit what's left of Arlathan or some Arlathan survivors in DA2.



Assuming there's sequels, of course.

[Original182]

TheMadCat wrote...
I still think the best explanation at the moment is either the lyrium in the room contaminating the ashes and giving them their magical properties or her followers adding something to her ashes to sort of increase her legend and solidify the belief that she truly held the Maker's gaze.

I have some in-game Codex that suggests that Andraste's Ashes already starting healing before it even reached the temple.

http://dragonage.wik...avard.27s_Aegis
http://dragonage.wik...hes_of_Andraste

If you talk to Sister Justine as well in Denerim, she will say that the lame could walk using Andraste's Ashes, hinting that Andraste's Ashes already started healing long time ago, and it's not just a recent phenomenon. All this could happen before it reached the temple, and if that's true, the lyrium then did not give it magical powers.

And again I am a bit surprised that people take Oghren's "analysis" at face value, but remain very skeptical of the Chantry. I don't see any lyrium deposits at the temple, how do you know Oghren was right, and didn't confuse something else for lyrium? (Edit: I vaguely remember there are lyrium deposits in Andraste's room, correct me if I'm wrong).

About her followers adding something to make her ashes magical, that means the magic to heal Arl Eamon can be replicated by other mages. But how come no other mages in the land could heal Arl Eamon? Only the ashes of the Maker's prophet could heal him. It's too much of a coincidence.

About the Chantry making stuff up to make Andraste appear more divine, there is also another artifact called Andraste's Tears. How come the Chantry didn't make up the fact that Andraste's tears could also heal all diseases? How come the one thing that they supposedly made up, turns out  to be the one that REALLY can heal all diseases? The Chantry lied about something that coincidently turns out to be true?

I think right now the skepticism towards the Chantry is actually now borderline cynicism. It takes way too many assumptions to explain that Andraste was not a prophet, but a mage. It may be simpler to accept that Andraste really was a prophet of the Maker, and the miraculous healing powers are a sign of the Maker.

Modifié par Original182, 29 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[TheMadCat]

You're correct in your general point, everything everyone is saying is pure speculation aside from whatever Bioware/Gaider say. One thing to remember about codex's is they are essentially generalized versions of stories and not necessarily cold hard facts. A few actually contradict each other, like I said there is a codex entry that say's Andraste was a mage, does that confirm she is a mage?



For Oghren's analysis, well he is a dwarf that has spent years down in the deep roads fighting dark spawn so I'm sure lyrium isn't exactly foreign to him. An expert, no, but if he says there is a strong feel of lyrium in the room, and some of it can indeed be seen so who knows how deep into the mountain it goes, I'd say it's safe to assume he knows what he's talking about. As for her followers adding to her ashes, there is little actually backing that up in game in just something I see from a sideways point of view, to comment on your challenge on it though in the real world there are many things done in the past that we cannot understand how they did or in some cases can't even recreate. Some things, some secrets and knowledge's are lost with time. Andaste was in a time when magic knew no bounds, no laws, who knows what the mages then knew that was lost.



As towards the cynicism towards the Chantry, well much like the Catholic church it's a matter of trust and belief. At the moment there is little lore which can be taken at face value, which leads to assumptions and nothing from the Chantry's stories or beliefs is laid out in cold, hard facts. Andraste could indeed have turned the Maker's gaze to this world, asked him to be his bride, became his voice, his prophet. If that does indeed reveal itself as the undeniable truth later on in a story then I'd have no problem accepting that. The thing is, at the moment there is little confirming that as the truth. There are just as many assumptions to say she was a mage as there are she was a prophet, and the one thing tilting it in favor of one is an extremely powerful, self-motivated entity who feels it must "spread the word of the Maker to the four corners" and seems to be willing to do so no matter the cost, who is asking you to simply trust them and their views. The truth is what you can prove, but what you prove is not necessarily the truth.

[Iller54]

Original182 wrote...

And again I am a bit surprised that people take Oghren's "analysis" at face value, but remain very skeptical of the Chantry. I don't see any lyrium deposits at the temple, how do you know Oghren was right, and didn't confuse something else for lyrium? (Edit: I vaguely remember there are lyrium deposits in Andraste's room, correct me if I'm wrong).

About her followers adding something to make her ashes magical, that means the magic to heal Arl Eamon can be replicated by other mages. But how come no other mages in the land could heal Arl Eamon? Only the ashes of the Maker's prophet could heal him. It's too much of a coincidence.

About the Chantry making stuff up to make Andraste appear more divine, there is also another artifact called Andraste's Tears. How come the Chantry didn't make up the fact that Andraste's tears could also heal all diseases? How come the one thing that they supposedly made up, turns out  to be the one that REALLY can heal all diseases? The Chantry lied about something that coincidently turns out to be true?

I think right now the skepticism towards the Chantry is actually now borderline cynicism. It takes way too many assumptions to explain that Andraste was not a prophet, but a mage. It may be simpler to accept that Andraste really was a prophet of the Maker, and the miraculous healing powers are a sign of the Maker.

Lel also claims the maker sends her visions, do you doubt her ? If so, why ? Andraste claimed she spoke to the maker....that makes her a prophet ?
They disbelieve the Chantry because its the dominant religion and quite honestly persecutes any religion that is not its own....winners write history and destroy any evidence that suggest otherwise, along with nearly all of the codex entries ive read come from...brother Genitivi, a supremely devout man, whose views could be considered biased.
Justine says it best when you ask her about the difficulty in confirming a relic...it is too dificult given the amount of false relics....hell look at our own history and you will see there have been literally tens of thousands pieces of the cross in existence. If you make enough claims about things that work, eventually you will get lucky and one might be true....remember the ashes have been lost for a long time.
As for the ashes, im curious as to what would happen to someone that was lyrium addled and then burned at the stake, garin is somewhat of an example... A lot of lyrium in the blood stream, doesnt quite act right..what effect would lyrium in the blood and body have on the ashes.
I personally like the theory that Andraste was a mage and was possed by a benevolent spirit of the fade...a powerful one at that.Think about it...to destroy the spirit you have to destroy the host, what better way to do that then to burn the body ? Then both spirit and person experience true death. You cannot live weeks on end without food unless something is keeping you alive (wynnes being of faith and powerful enough to keep her alive and heal you at the same time).
One more theory, im not sure if its been suggested or not. A lot seems to revolve around blood in this game and as the taint is carried through blood, I believe the golden city is drenched in the makers blood. That he/she is indeed dead, the old gods jealous of the maker had his finest creations kill him, as he died a curse was laid upon them *shrugs* his blood fueling the curse and creating the darkspawn. No evidence...but story wise it seems possible.
I love speculation, its interesting in the theories people come up with and to be honest this is one of the greatest parts of this game. You will always have cynics and you will always have believers

[Grommash94]

Well..since we know now that even in the Old God religion that people acknowledged the Maker...and that even in the elf religion none of the gods actually CREATED anything..then it is pretty safe to assume that there IS a Maker.



And guys, if Andraste was a mage, don't you think there would be more evidence of that? Even the Dalish Elves said that she was simply a woman who waged war against the Imperium and one of their own was by her side in order to free their people. There is ONE book that says she was a mage.



Even if she was, so what? She STILL could contacted the Maker. And you guys can't deny the spirits that are in the Gauntlet. If they are from the Fade, then they copied the personalities of REAL people, since they can only copy and not create. Which means that all those people existed at one point as well, and even they believed in the Maker.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheMadCat wrote...
As for her followers adding to her ashes, there is little actually backing that up in game in just something I see from a sideways point of view, to comment on your challenge on it though in the real world there are many things done in the past that we cannot understand how they did or in some cases can't even recreate. Some things, some secrets and knowledge's are lost with time. Andaste was in a time when magic knew no bounds, no laws, who knows what the mages then knew that was lost.

There was no time when magic had no bounds.
If Andraste was a mage, then she is the most powerfull amge that ever lived. Healing magic of that power is unknown even to the Cirlce spirit healers.

Lyrium vein is not a sufficient explanation for hte amazing healing properties. Even moreso since items don't spontanitously get magical properties just for being closeto lyrium. ESPECIALLY healing properties...which just so happen to  match the supposed propoerties ofh te ashes before tehy were brought to the temple.

In short, no explanation is nearly satisfactory so far....well, except for the Andraste and her Ashes being the real deal, but there's no concrete proof. As usual with thing that have happened far in the past, or things that touch the spiritual, it's not very likely that there will ever be strong evidence of anything.

[JaegerBane]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

It seems to me that none of the spirits or demons in the game believe in the maker.  In the orphanage, when Ser Otto invokes the Maker's name, the Rage Demon reponds, "Fool! There is no Maker!" or something to that effect.  It could have just been an angry demon trying to shake Ser Otto's concentration, but it didn't say, your Maker can't save you, or it has no power over me, it's dead, etc.; it said the maker doesn't exist.  Flemeth, doesn't believe what the chantry preaches and she has the knowledge of a demon.  I don't recall any of the other demons, abominations or spirits in the game making any mention of the maker.  If they were created by the maker (serving the same purpose as Angels, Demons and Djinn) you would assume that they would be cognisant of him and have fear or respect of him.

That's true - the problem with that theory is that it assumes that all those spirits are speaking truthfully. Considering spirits and demons are extremely limited in comparison to mortals when it comes to the search of knowledge, and the point that if the maker did exist then all demons and spirits are essentially rejects, I don't think the testimony of a few demons is adequate proof that the Maker doesn't exist.

The point made that the 'existence' of the Black City is neither here nor there is a good one - anyone who was actually told about the Black City would obviously expect to see it and whatever spirits and demons are there would generate such a city (the fact that no matter where you are in the Fade it is always on the horizon adds support to this, as the concept of a location that always the same distance from everywhere else is not only physically impossible but also logically no different from saying that two men are both taller than the other, assuming everything in the fade is not set in a circle around the city)

But ultimately, the whole Sacred Ashes quest would need to be explained before the idea of the Maker could be debunked. I mean, magic traps, ghosts and a psychic guy who's lived for centuries really aren't that common.

[AndreaDraco]

A lot of good speculation going on!



I want to add only a couple of points:



1. Grommash94 says that the Elven gods didn't create anything, but this is not true. They are born from the Earth, but this doesn't mean that, later, they didn't create anything and, first and foremost, this doesn't mean that the Earth was created by the Maker. In Greek mythology (upon which the Dalish recollection seems to be molded), there is only Chaos, in the beginning, and then from the nothingness arised Eurinome or Gaia, the Earth -- but she wasn't created, and even a much later philosopher like Epicurus (and then Lucretius) said that the Earth was created by the casual motion of atoms. As far as I see it, Greek myth (= Elven lore) is not a teleology but a metaphysical naturalism (= nature has no design or finalism).



2. The theory of Andraste being a mage and - as such - her Maker being nothing more than a Spirit from the Fade whispering to her (like the Spirit of Faith does with Wynne) is fascinating, but David told us that even the Tevinters aknowledged the presence of a Maker, way before Andraste. How can we explain this? David told us that the Old Gods, not created nor creators, are totally different things from the Elven deities and the Maker, so how come that the Maker was known (albeit not worshipped) by Tevinters?

[Grommash94]

AndreaDraco wrote...

A lot of good speculation going on!

I want to add only a couple of points:

1. Grommash94 says that the Elven gods didn't create anything, but this is not true. They are born from the Earth, but this doesn't mean that, later, they didn't create anything and, first and foremost, this doesn't mean that the Earth was created by the Maker. In Greek mythology (upon which the Dalish recollection seems to be molded), there is only Chaos, in the beginning, and then from the nothingness arised Eurinome or Gaia, the Earth -- but she wasn't created, and even a much later philosopher like Epicurus (and then Lucretius) said that the Earth was created by the casual motion of atoms. As far as I see it, Greek myth (= Elven lore) is not a teleology but a metaphysical naturalism (= nature has no design or finalism).

Meh, I was only reiterating what David said about the Elven gods. But, true, it doesn't mean that the Earth was created by the Maker...but, the other two religions still claim that he does.

[amrose2]

Good read, some fun info in here. I wish more of this was explored / explained in the game. Completely left in the dark about the game's main nemesis: the Archdemon. All we get from the game is that it's an old god, corrupted, was apparently intelligent (but not anymore?) and needs to die.

[JaegerBane]

amrose2 wrote...

Good read, some fun info in here. I wish more of this was explored / explained in the game. Completely left in the dark about the game's main nemesis: the Archdemon. All we get from the game is that it's an old god, corrupted, was apparently intelligent (but not anymore?) and needs to die.

I think the mystery is intentional. Put simply, in our understanding of what both the Darkspawn and Archdemons are, there is a large void in our knowledge about how the Darkspawn are related.

The fact that the Archdemon can simply 'jump' to any Darkspawn once physical body has been destroyed indicates to me that the entire affliction - the Taint, the Broodmothers, the Darkspawn warriors, everything - are all generated by the Old God's consciousness. It's all how mortals percieve the existence of what remains of the Old Gods - as a horrible disease with a Draconic figurehead.

[TheMadCat]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...


[quote]There was no time when magic had no bounds.
If Andraste was a mage, then she is the most powerfull amge that ever lived. Healing magic of that power is unknown even to the Cirlce spirit healers.[/quote]

Well when I speak of bounds I mean they had no one constantly looking over their shoulders telling them this is ok and that is a death sentence. Avernus pretty much confirms this, the man has defied both time and the taint through the means of magic and he even admits there is still so much more to learn, so much more possibility. If a man can defy death and the calling of the taint through magical means, why can magic not also contain the ability to heal even the most dire afflictions?

[quote]Lyrium vein is not a sufficient explanation for hte amazing healing properties. Even moreso since items don't spontanitously get magical properties just for being closeto lyrium. ESPECIALLY healing properties...which just so happen to  match the supposed propoerties of the ashes before they were brought to the temple.[/quote]

Tough to say, it's got about as much facts backing it as the explanation of the Maker himself blessing her ashes. Reality is no one really knows though what prolonged exposure, (prolonged meaning centuries), to large quantities of Lyrium would, it's not something one can easily study afterall. Perhaps it's a coincidence, perhaps not. It's difficult to say one way or the other, Lyrium is the essence of magic as Gregaior says however and is extremely powerful and potent stuff so I don't think you can brush it off as easy as you'd think. There is no evidence contradicting this notion and it does at face value appear to be a bit to much of a coincidence. Like I said, it has about as much hard evidence backing it up as any other theory at the moment.

[quote]In short, no explanation is nearly satisfactory so far....well, except for the Andraste and her Ashes being the real deal, but there's no concrete proof. As usual with thing that have happened far in the past, or things that touch the spiritual, it's not very likely that there will ever be strong evidence of anything.
[/quote]

Agree, it's all speculative based on stories and loose facts. But what can I say, it's fun to speculate.

[AndreaDraco]

David Gaider wrote...
The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City...

Today, I was reading The Calling and, at the beginning of Chapter 8, we can read the following verse:

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
on blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
the first of My children, lost to night.

                            - Canticle of Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse

This verse seems to imply that the Old Gods were created by the Maker, and I'm wondering: does dissonant verse mean something like apocryphal? Maybe this verse isn't recognized by the Chantry, or maybe it is only used by the Imperial Chantry. I don't know, but I thought it was interesting enough to post

[Eudaemonium]

The dissonant verses are basically apocryphal - verses removed from the Chant. For example, the verses regarding Shartan, Andraste's elven disciple, were stricken from the Chant proper during the Exalted March of the Dales, thereby becomign dissonant verses.

It is true that that verse implies the Old Gods are created by the Maker, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. After all, the verse might not be correct in its assumptions. It seems likely that the Chantry, with its Maker who creates all, would write that even if ti wasn't, in reality, the case.

[AndreaDraco]

Yes, I know that this doesn't prove anything. The interesting thing is the existence of the verse itself, and the fact that it is considered apocryphal.