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#26
DPSSOC

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AlienWolf728 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

AlienWolf728 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

For the most part I would say they've done a good job keeping the oversexed, juvenile designs out of Dragon Age. Isabela is toeing the line IMO, but at least female Wardens and female Hawkes didn't have the options of chainmail bikini, tattered dress, or metal bits covering nothing but the nipples and bajingo.


Isabela made sense. She was a pirate and a ****, I don't think she would wear knightly plate armor.

Edit: I like how my five-letter word got changed into FOUR "*"


Why is it that any time anyone brings up Isabela having no pants people always go straight to "What, she should be wearing heavy plate?" You know, there is quite a lot in between.

Because it's the only argument needed.


It's a strawman.  Nobody is suggesting Isabela should be running around in plate armor.  I've seen people call for leather armor, and you could actually have that without changing her look much.  Personally I don't care, I tolerated Jack running around in the vacuum of space half naked I'm not really gonna make a fuss over this.

#27
Teddiliza

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Lokiwithrope wrote...

I hope to God that DA3 has actual armor. No sexualized armor that exposes skin; I want actual, functional suits of chain and platemail that actually block attacks. Total war means everyone should have better armor, even the mages who at the least should have hardplates.


Yeah! Give us a vanity slot for wearing something when we are not in battle to look good, but I agree, even though this is a game we are playing every little bit of realism helps.

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#28
Maria Caliban

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Total war didn't exist prior to the 19th century. 18th at the earliest.

#29
Das Tentakel

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Total war didn't exist prior to the 19th century. 18th at the earliest.


Depends on your definition. If you mean full mobilization of all available manpower resources by industrial societies, you're correct. By that definition, you probably have to exclude revolutionary-era and Napoleonic warfare as well.
The American Civil War and the Franco-Prussian Wars are probably the first that can be called 'total'. And even there you can debate the issue.

However, if it is understood as the large-scale mobilization of available manpower and fighting à l'outrance, then there are plenty of examples. The later phase of Warring States China, the Peloponnesian War, the Punic Wars, to some extent the Roman civil wars and numerous smaller conflicts where a small state or a people had to fight for their lives.
A medieval example would be the battle of Visby in 1361, where the yeomanry of the island of Gotland tried to fight off a Danish invasion. It is estimated that 1,800 Gotlanders died, and at that time you're probably talking the majority of the men of fighting age in the entire island. Their graves are a rich find of armour from that time, and it varies from serviceable hand-me-downs to state of the art 'modern' brigandine armour.

By the way, in these kinds of conflicts you also see a 'rationalization' of arms and armour production. Research of Italian arms and armour from the era of the Second Punic War show clear evidence of rationalization (fewer and simpler forms) and mass production (lower quality). People armed and equipped in these 'pre-industrial total war' situations wouldn't necessarily be equipped with random stuff (provided they had some time to prepare and adapt), but a mix of older but still serviceable equipment and standardized, newly produced, possibly inferior items.

#30
OrganizedChaos826

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I don't think we have anything to worry about. The Dragon Age series has always taken a sensible approach to armor and made it practical, which is a rarity among fantasy games.

As far as mages go, armored robes would work well, I think. Like what the Templars wear, except more light-weight.

I would be overjoyed if not one robe design from Origins or DA2 reappeared in DA3. Except maybe the Grey Warden mage robes.

#31
Swagger7

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Das Tentakel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Total war didn't exist prior to the 19th century. 18th at the earliest.


Depends on your definition. If you mean full mobilization of all available manpower resources by industrial societies, you're correct. By that definition, you probably have to exclude revolutionary-era and Napoleonic warfare as well.
The American Civil War and the Franco-Prussian Wars are probably the first that can be called 'total'. And even there you can debate the issue.

However, if it is understood as the large-scale mobilization of available manpower and fighting à l'outrance, then there are plenty of examples. The later phase of Warring States China, the Peloponnesian War, the Punic Wars, to some extent the Roman civil wars and numerous smaller conflicts where a small state or a people had to fight for their lives.
A medieval example would be the battle of Visby in 1361, where the yeomanry of the island of Gotland tried to fight off a Danish invasion. It is estimated that 1,800 Gotlanders died, and at that time you're probably talking the majority of the men of fighting age in the entire island. Their graves are a rich find of armour from that time, and it varies from serviceable hand-me-downs to state of the art 'modern' brigandine armour.

By the way, in these kinds of conflicts you also see a 'rationalization' of arms and armour production. Research of Italian arms and armour from the era of the Second Punic War show clear evidence of rationalization (fewer and simpler forms) and mass production (lower quality). People armed and equipped in these 'pre-industrial total war' situations wouldn't necessarily be equipped with random stuff (provided they had some time to prepare and adapt), but a mix of older but still serviceable equipment and standardized, newly produced, possibly inferior items.



That's only half of what total war is.  The other half includes the subsequent systematic targeting of civilians and industry, as they are now a vital part of the war effort.  From what I can tell, the Taiping Rebellion in China (1850-1860-something) was the first war that fits both categories.  (Although that's slightly debatable, as it's unknown how much of the destruction was part of a systematic strategy, and how much was simple rage induced war crime.)  The US Civil War definitely counts, but only after Sherman started burning things in Georgia.......

Modifié par Swagger7, 03 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .


#32
dielveio

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I think Hilde, from Soul Calibur 4, has de best heavy armor I've ever seen in a game.
For me that's something to go after,

Light armors on the other hand are quite tricky because "light armor" has been hammered in many heads as: the armor to show female features. The less the better.

#33
PsychoBlonde

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Mungolian_ wrote...

I just hope there's no rogue armor that looks like pajamas.  


But I'm a Ninja!  I must wear black pajamas!

#34
JWvonGoethe

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Good to see that Eric Hobsbawm's soul has taken possession of the BSN.

#35
PsychoBlonde

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OrganizedChaos826 wrote...

I don't think we have anything to worry about. The Dragon Age series has always taken a sensible approach to armor and made it practical, which is a rarity among fantasy games.


Well, apart from the GINORMOUS shoulder plates on massive armor.  You would bash your own nose in with those things just trying to swing your sword.  You wouldn't even be able to see over them!  People would hide behind your shoulder plates and shove a dagger up your bajingo.

#36
MichaelStuart

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I support functional looking armour.

#37
mousestalker

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JWvonGoethe wrote...

Good to see that Eric Hobsbawm's soul has taken possession of the BSN.


Since neither the Archdemon nor Meredith had mustaches that doesn't seem to be the case.

#38
PsychoBlonde

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Total war didn't exist prior to the 19th century. 18th at the earliest.


Didn't General Sherman kinda INVENT the concept of Total War?  Prior to that people were (generally speaking) fighting to GET something--land, fortresses, religious authority, they weren't just fighting to end the freakin' fighting.

#39
Wulfram

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I don't mind rogues and mages not wearing armour, but I do dislike them wearing obviously silly armour.

I was happy enough with most of the armour designs in DA2. Aside from being rather forced into the Champions armour, which is too extravagant for my tastes.

#40
philippe willaume

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I support fully functional armour, but it might not be that practical in a game.

Try to get in full plate on your own..i can t get in mine alone. I believe it is possible with geman style plate ie spaulders cannon couter and vambrace attached to the arming doublet.

so really it is ,more likely that we would be limited to brigandine, eventually an metallic plaquard metal arms and legs clip on bevor and salet plus the mail skirt or the mail cyclist short.

On the plus side there would be no objection for mage to wear 25 or 31 layer jacks.

phil

#41
DarkKnightHolmes

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At least give us the option to make everyone wear armor, ME3 did it (despite having women have catsuit armors as default) so I don't see it being impossible for DA3.

#42
Mr.House

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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

At least give us the option to make everyone wear armor, ME3 did it (despite having women have catsuit armors as default) so I don't see it being impossible for DA3.

Liara wore a cat suit?

#43
Milan92

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I don't see why everyone needs to wear armor. For some characters it would probably look weird.

#44
DarkKnightHolmes

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Mr.House wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

At least give us the option to make everyone wear armor, ME3 did it (despite having women have catsuit armors as default) so I don't see it being impossible for DA3.

Liara wore a cat suit?


Liara isn't a woman.... or at least that's what she/Bioware say.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 03 octobre 2012 - 04:36 .


#45
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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Nightdragon8 wrote...

Look at ANY pirate ship, they didn't wear heavy metal suits. and if the women thought they would get raped they would have more than likely have worn what Isabella did.


This is... just... what?!

Are you suggesting a female pirate would wear less clothing to make it easier for would-be rapists to rape them?

#46
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Mungolian_ wrote...

I just hope there's no rogue armor that looks like pajamas.  


But I'm a Ninja!  I must wear black pajamas!


Fun fact- most ninjas wore dark red, not black. It was intended to keep blood and wounds from being visible to form an image of invincibility. It was an effective tactic to deceive since most ninjas were not as skilled in combat as the average samurai or sword-for-hire.

#47
Sylvius the Mad

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll never understand the people that cry for realism in fantasy games.

Because realistic armour tells us a lot about the setting.  In DAO, we can see what sorts of armoursmithing techiques were used.  That has implications for the rest of society - specifically, it tells us about their level of materials technology.

DA2's armour was much cruder than DAO's armour.  The pieces appeared cast rather than smithed, and were far less functional in their design.

Functionality is cool.

#48
Das Tentakel

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Swagger7 wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Total war didn't exist prior to the 19th century. 18th at the earliest.


Depends on your definition. If you mean full mobilization of all available manpower resources by industrial societies, you're correct. By that definition, you probably have to exclude revolutionary-era and Napoleonic warfare as well.
The American Civil War and the Franco-Prussian Wars are probably the first that can be called 'total'. And even there you can debate the issue.

However, if it is understood as the large-scale mobilization of available manpower and fighting à l'outrance, then there are plenty of examples. The later phase of Warring States China, the Peloponnesian War, the Punic Wars, to some extent the Roman civil wars and numerous smaller conflicts where a small state or a people had to fight for their lives.
A medieval example would be the battle of Visby in 1361, where the yeomanry of the island of Gotland tried to fight off a Danish invasion. It is estimated that 1,800 Gotlanders died, and at that time you're probably talking the majority of the men of fighting age in the entire island. Their graves are a rich find of armour from that time, and it varies from serviceable hand-me-downs to state of the art 'modern' brigandine armour.

By the way, in these kinds of conflicts you also see a 'rationalization' of arms and armour production. Research of Italian arms and armour from the era of the Second Punic War show clear evidence of rationalization (fewer and simpler forms) and mass production (lower quality). People armed and equipped in these 'pre-industrial total war' situations wouldn't necessarily be equipped with random stuff (provided they had some time to prepare and adapt), but a mix of older but still serviceable equipment and standardized, newly produced, possibly inferior items.



That's only half of what total war is.  The other half includes the subsequent systematic targeting of civilians and industry, as they are now a vital part of the war effort.  From what I can tell, the Taiping Rebellion in China (1850-1860-something) was the first war that fits both categories.  (Although that's slightly debatable, as it's unknown how much of the destruction was part of a systematic strategy, and how much was simple rage induced war crime.)  The US Civil War definitely counts, but only after Sherman started burning things in Georgia.......



Again, it's a matter of definition.
Goebbels in his 1943 speech, to which we basically owe the popularisation of the term, meant it primarily to refer to the 'total' mobilisation of German resources to achieve a 'total' victory. Including lovely sentences calling out for killing 'lackards' and 'blackmarketeers' and, by implication, dissenters. And he meant that quite literally.
In original 18th century German parlance, it may have meant simply a 'big' war.
Some scholarly definitions may include terms like Niederwerfungsstrategie, i.e. a strategy aiming at complete victory, others a term like Vernichtungskrieg, a war of 'extermination' or destroying the enemy. It's not the same. Some ancient and medieval wars aimed at the first, others at the second. The Romans conducted both kinds of war; an example of the first would be the Second Punic War; an example of the second the way in which Caesar dealt with the Eburones. These were a Celtic/Germanic people in my country (plus neighbouring parts of modern Belgium and Germany) who made the mistake of defeating one of Caesar's legions. Once old Julius was done with them, there were no more Eburones. Deliberately ravaging the land, killing non-combatants, burning crops etc. have always been common components of warfare. Ethnic cleansing and genocide were part of the toolbox too.
Our ancestors didn't need any scholarly definitions to know that, if you want to win, you often have to destroy your enemy's warmaking capabilities, including his economic base. Or maybe even wipe him out completely. Whatever works.

Posted Image

Anyway, you can take your pick regarding the definition you prefer :mellow:.
Personally, I would rather make a distinction between war aims, war strategies and warmaking capabilities. The latter certainly increased in the modern era, making 'total' war aims and strategies, combined with full mobilisation of the warmaking capabilities, a frightening thing. It's the change in magnitude in these capabilities that are what mainly distinguishes modern from ancient/medieval/early modern warfare.
Luckily, these three rarely coincide. Good thing too, because they're still finding bombs here from last time :(.

Edit:
Looking back at the OP, I doubt he had anything like a 'total-ish' ancient or medieval war in mind to be honest.
Full or partial plate for everybody? Hmmmm, doubt it...<_<

I also agree with Philippe that for a bunch of adventurers without servants or squires, late medieval full plate armour might not be practical from a 'realism' point of view. Heck, getting into chain mail, greaves and helmet is already a bit of a bother, though perfectly doable on your own...

You know what I would like? Any armoured companion NPC's getting out of their armour when in camp or relaxing.
And I'd loooove seeing, say, an Oghren polishing his armour muttering obscenities about Darkspawn blood & guts.
A Sten should be stoic and expressionless of course, and an Alistair would be wisecracking :D.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:10 .


#49
Eveangaline

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Lokiwithrope wrote...

I hope to God that DA3 has actual armor. No sexualized armor that exposes skin; I want actual, functional suits of chain and platemail that actually block attacks. Total war means everyone should have better armor, even the mages who at the least should have hardplates.


I don't mind mages in their robes, and I'm fine with rogue armor being hard leather. But yeah exposed skinbits is weird

#50
Sylvius the Mad

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Total war didn't exist prior to the 19th century. 18th at the earliest.

I'm not sure about that.  The Mongol invasion of Hungary in 1241 seems to fit the description quite well.  And much German military theory (including Clauswitz) sprung from the military academy built in Wahlstatt to study the defeat of the Holy Roman Empire in the Battle of Liegnitz that same year.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:19 .