151 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

Armors should look cool AND reasonable. There is no reason that realistic armor shouldn't look utterly cool as well. By realistic, it's realistic that they could actually equip the armor without hurting themselves, and that they shouldn't be so scantily clad that even a cardboard sword could give them epic papercuts.  Men shouldn't look like they have 10-inch plate. They have to walk, after all (same goes with sword that's 2X their height). Women shouldn't look like there is more metal in their jewellery than in their clothing.

I think the DAO armors look more traditonal medieval fantasy. Suits the world. The DA2 armors are anime-like. IMHO, the series is going to the anime side of things, which I don't think it should. Anime is good in its own right, but medieval fantasy ain't anime (c.f., crazy ninja animations).

Indeed

While "stylish" and "practical" don't 100% overlap, they are not mutually exclusive either.  There is a spot there they meet.  

For example, no I can't see Isabela in shining plate armor.  But I could see her in form-fitting leather armor that looks like it could protect her from a grazing hit.

[philippe willaume]

deuce985 wrote...

Since when does Bioware have to make their armor designs "realistic" based on our own world? They might draw inspiration on some parts from this world, but Dragon Age isn't this universe. It's laws that Bioware sets forth for their own world. This is like those Mass Effect arguments trying to use real world logic with that universe. It doesn't work in a fictional universe you know very little about.

well in the DA univers they do look humanoid to me. you know a bit like you find the same technique across martial arts of the world because and elbow  just work the same across the world.

So if you have gap in your armour someone is going to stick something pointy in it. as i said before realistic armour has some contraint that really gets in the way of fantasy.

ie try to put  full
plate without help.

 

but the point being made here is that like super humongus sword or armour that is over the top sort of damage the suspension of disbelief.

that being said we don't have boobs breastplate and  skirt of plate..

 

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:13 .

[Abraham_uk]

What did my arcane warrior look like?


She was an epic powerhouse of sword wielding, magic blasting destruction.
Like Samus, no one ever realised she was a woman. (Until she took her helmet off).


That armour is actually quite scary.
 If the devil was a cylon and existed in medieval fantasy, it would be wearing that armour
I'd love to have sentinel armour for Comander Shepard as sentinel class.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Han Shot First]

deuce985 wrote...


But it can be believable based on the lore they write in the game. It's their universe. The problem is you're looking at the game with this world in mind, it doesn't work like that. Just because it's practical here, doesn't mean it fits DA. How do you know how human bodies work in that universe? Nobody knows. That's why it's a fantasy realm...

Cartoony oversized armor is fine if the protagonist has supernatural strength or endurance according to the lore. Likewise skimpy 'armor' for female heroes that shows more skin than it covers is also fine, if her soft flesh somehow has the ability to deflect swords, spears, and arrows.

Short of that, it just looks ridiculous and lame.

Heroes in the DA series by the way, have been very 'human'  in terms of abilities. No offense intended to heroes of Dwarven or Elven extraction. 

Except of course for mages, but I don't think too many people have that class in mind while discussing armor.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:06 .

[Abraham_uk]

Han Shot First wrote...











Who says women in armor can't also look good?

Badass! Body protected from blows and very stylish.

[Iakus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Cartoony oversized armor is fine if the protagonist has supernatural strength or endurance according to the lore. Likewise skimpy 'armor' for female heroes that shows more skin than it covers is also fine, if her soft flesh somehow has the ability to deflect swords, spears, and arrows.

Short of that, it just looks ridiculous and lame.

Heroes in the DA series by the way, have been very 'human'  in terms of abilities. No offense intended to heroes of Dwarven or Elven extraction. 

Except of course for mages, but I don't think too many people have that class in mind while discussing armor.

Heck the only reason I give Fenris a pass on his sleeveless armor is his Lyrium Ghost abilities means he needs less protection from physical attacks.(what with phasing throgh solid objects)

[goofyomnivore]

I hate pointlessly large shoulder pads. I didn't like any of the origins armors. DA:2 had some good designs I thought.

[DPSSOC]

iakus wrote...

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

Armors should look cool AND reasonable. There is no reason that realistic armor shouldn't look utterly cool as well. By realistic, it's realistic that they could actually equip the armor without hurting themselves, and that they shouldn't be so scantily clad that even a cardboard sword could give them epic papercuts.  Men shouldn't look like they have 10-inch plate. They have to walk, after all (same goes with sword that's 2X their height). Women shouldn't look like there is more metal in their jewellery than in their clothing.

I think the DAO armors look more traditonal medieval fantasy. Suits the world. The DA2 armors are anime-like. IMHO, the series is going to the anime side of things, which I don't think it should. Anime is good in its own right, but medieval fantasy ain't anime (c.f., crazy ninja animations).

Indeed

While "stylish" and "practical" don't 100% overlap, they are not mutually exclusive either.  There is a spot there they meet.  

For example, no I can't see Isabela in shining plate armor.  But I could see her in form-fitting leather armor that looks like it could protect her from a grazing hit.

Or even just a leather vest as opposed to her cloth shirt.  The look could easily be maintained while providing something that looks like it might actually do something to protect the wearer.  That's why Varric doesn't bother me because his coat (too me anyway) looked like fairly thick leather.  It might not stop a blade but it's better than nothing.

[Fiacre]

You know, I don't see how "It's fantasy" means that armour can't look realistic or practical. It might mean that it doesn't have to do that, but some people think that realistic/practical looking armour looks a lot "cooler" or more "stylish" or whatever other word you want to use to describe them than the fantasy looking armours.

It's really a matter of taste -- Maria Caliban thinks the massive armour in DA:O looks hideous, I like it enough to have the majority of my PCs wear it. Other think the rogue Champion armour looks terrible and I think it looks pretty cool.

Personally, I wouldn't be at all averse to more realistic and practical armour. I don't mind more anime style or over the top armour, but there are cases where I think it ended up looking really terrible (Dissension and the Warrior Champion armour, for example).

[Iakus]

DPSSOC wrote...

iakus wrote...

Indeed

While "stylish" and "practical" don't 100% overlap, they are not mutually exclusive either.  There is a spot there they meet.  

For example, no I can't see Isabela in shining plate armor.  But I could see her in form-fitting leather armor that looks like it could protect her from a grazing hit.

Or even just a leather vest as opposed to her cloth shirt.  The look could easily be maintained while providing something that looks like it might actually do something to protect the wearer.  That's why Varric doesn't bother me because his coat (too me anyway) looked like fairly thick leather.  It might not stop a blade but it's better than nothing.

In Varric's case, he's an archer, and thus shouldn't be in the thick of things anyway.

And even then, it's kind of silly to be showing off his manly dwarven chest in the midst of battle.

[Il Divo]

Abraham_uk wrote...

What did my arcane warrior look like?


She was an epic powerhouse of sword wielding, magic blasting destruction.
Like Samus, no one ever realised she was a woman. (Until she took her helmet off).


That armour is actually quite scary.
 If the devil was a cylon and existed in medieval fantasy, it would be wearing that armour
I'd love to have sentinel armour for Comander Shepard as sentinel class.

That armor...my character felt like a God in that suit, wielding Spellweaver with lightning flowing through it, not to mention my million different sustainables running at the same time. Damn, I actually want to replay Awakening for once.

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:08 .

[The Elder King]

iakus wrote...



In Varric's case, he's an archer, and thus shouldn't be in the thick of things anyway.

And even then, it's kind of silly to be showing off his manly dwarven chest in the midst of battle.

His chest hairs are obviously a fully upgraded heavy armour.
Joking aside, I agree with you. I'm curious to see if and how their armour customization concept will work in DA3.

Modifié par hhh89, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:16 .

[legbamel]

Han Shot First wrote...

I too hope that the armor designs look practical and realistic.

But that doesn't just extend to 'coverage.' Big blocky suits of armor for male characters that look like they have pauldrons that weigh 100 pounds a piece, are just as silly and ridiculous as the armors where a female character is showing cleavage or bearing her midriff.

Lets see some stuff like this: [snip seventeen metric tons of chainmail]

I would totally put this on my PC.  Or on me.  On a Tuesday.  To go to work.

[Das Tentakel]

[quote]marshalleck wrote...

Pretty much anything by Frank Frazetta and Boris Vallejo.
[/quote]

* snip *





[/quote]

Okay, a woman with conventional armour (the kind you dislike) and a ‘supermarket commercial’ pseudo-Arab on a cameloid with 6 legs. How imaginative and unusual.
On second thought, let’s have the girls in bikini armour…

Seriously though, if you peruse through Vallejo and Frazetta art books (let alone the Internet), between 75 and 99% of what they did involved very scantily clad or naked women. A minority shows ‘normal’ illustrations or are sufficiently ‘artsy’ (or playful) to rise above the level of being extremely tacky. Heck, Vallejo did the covers for the ‘Gor’ novels. You can’t sink much lower than that.

And Frazetta…well, he did some nice grim-faced barbarians. And a gazillion trillion billion babes with mighty boobs and bikini armour.

I know, I was there when the strength of teenage nerds failed, and Vallejo and Frazetta art books ended up in the bargain basements of Doom, and were condemned to stay there for an eternity while the ‘90s evolved into the third era, erm, millennium.

[Han Shot First]

legbamel wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I too hope that the armor designs look practical and realistic.

But that doesn't just extend to 'coverage.' Big blocky suits of armor for male characters that look like they have pauldrons that weigh 100 pounds a piece, are just as silly and ridiculous as the armors where a female character is showing cleavage or bearing her midriff.

Lets see some stuff like this: [snip seventeen metric tons of chainmail]

I would totally put this on my PC.  Or on me.  On a Tuesday.  To go to work.

That suit of armor does look awesome. I usually role male characters, but if something like that were in the game I might create a female character just because of how cool it looks.

[Bfler]

That's what I think is ok for female light and heavy armor.

[Yaevinn]

edit: 
"Yeah, it turns out that molding a breastplate around each individual breast doesn't actually accomplish anything and is in fact less effective (and more work) than just having one smooth, rounded plate (which sits a bit away from the chest in any case) as one sees in men's armor. Outside of modern fantasy costumes nobody ever did that. So why does virtually every fantasy artist draw breastplates with individual breasts on them? I think we know very well why." - Black Flag

Modifié par Yaevinn, 04 octobre 2012 - 12:05 .

[naminco]

I am very pleased with how DA has handled armors. If they just continue in this vein, I will continue to be pleased. For mage armor - yes, I believe players should have the option to armor their mages if they so desire. I think mage!Hawke's armor was perfect. I personally would not want to put a mage in heavy plate for the same reason they can't wear it in DnD - I assume they need to move around to cast, and you just can't do that in heavy plate. But I will not prevent others if they want to go that route.

[Mr Fixit]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll never understand the people that cry for realism in fantasy games.

That's what you get for using a polysemous word all the while pretending it has only one meaning.

The answer to your question might be more apparent if you used the word 'versimilitude' or 'plausibility'.

[Shadow Fox]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll never understand the people that cry for realism in fantasy games.

That's what you get for using a polysemous word all the while pretending it has only one meaning.

The answer to your question might be more apparent if you used the word 'versimilitude' or 'plausibility'.

Metal armor is useless against guys who can freeze you and I highly doubt most common metal armor in Thedas is shock and fireproof not to mention actual armor was useless against any archer who knew what they were doing there's a reason metal armor isn't used any more.

Dragon Age contains magical elves,Dwarves and dragons aswell so  sorry but the "plausibillity" argument doesn't fly with me in this circumstance sorry

[unbentbuzzkill]

there should be full sets of armor for every class, And when i say armor I mean real armor that could take a hit from a sword or arrow. no more stupid leather armor with the a matching skirt.

[Han Shot First]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll never understand the people that cry for realism in fantasy games.

That's what you get for using a polysemous word all the while pretending it has only one meaning.

The answer to your question might be more apparent if you used the word 'versimilitude' or 'plausibility'.

Metal armor is useless against guys who can freeze you and I highly doubt most common metal armor in Thedas is shock and fireproof not to mention actual armor was useless against any archer who knew what they were doing there's a reason metal armor isn't used any more.

Dragon Age contains magical elves,Dwarves and dragons aswell so  sorry but the "plausibillity" argument doesn't fly with me in this circumstance sorry

Spears, swords, arrows and darts can still pierce a leather jerkin or a padded gambeson.

Mail hauberks and byrnies, while they provided great protection, were not invulnerable either.

Likewise even plate could be pierced by some weapons, and a man clad in plate armor was still vulnerable to weapons that inflicted blunt force trauma, like maces or war hammers.

Despite not being invulnerable, all of those armor types saw heavy use during different periods because they still provided some protection. And they were far better than the alternative, which was to go without armor completely. With that in mind, your argument that realistic protection from armors shouldn't be an issue in DA because of magic, simply doesn't hold water.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 octobre 2012 - 09:36 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

Stepping in while wishing I still had that nomex flight suit I "borrowed" when I was in the Air Force...

The "plausibility" argument in a world with magic and how it would affect armor design needs to be explored more. As noted above, "real world" medieval combatants never had to worry about magical fire, frost or electrical damage - just various types of physical force. All "realistic" armors were designed around how to mitigate the energy available from brute strength.

But armor design in a world where magic is a regularly expected occurrence would have evolved differently. It is not hard to imagine that certain cloths, leathers and such just might be magically enhanced to resist such things as well as some degree of piercing, slashing and blunt force trauma. Hence, it is possible for there to be all sorts of armor styles possible - not just the ones we recognize as "realistic" and "plausible" from this world.

And if anyone wants to read into this an adolescent desire to provide some "verisimilitude" for having magically enhanced "chain mail" bikinis, that do not depend upon mere physical means of protection, I assure, the thought never entered my mind.... ;-)

However, unless we know more about the physics of a fantasy situation, and how magic relates to those physics, everything said in this regard is just personal taste - one is not inherently more "realistic" than another given the unknowns of a fantasy universe.

I suspect, but of course cannot know, that one of the reasons that some people who dislike "fantasy" armor, respond so strongly is that they feel that it somehow makes their game less serious. Me I play games for fun - and therefore enjoy seeing a wide variety of armor styles - both the more traditional as well as those types that some here find "outrageous" because they are "skimpy." I regularly modded these armors into the game at the first opportunity.

So if I see some style of female armor (like DAO's Dalish armors) with exposed bellies and mini-skirts I just assume that someone enchanted those armors in such a way that still made them a viable means of protection - despite the fact that they would never have worked in "our" reality.

But for the record I do hate the "anime" over large, "fantasy" style weapons and much prefer ones based on "real world" models... go figure.

[marshalleck]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Okay, a woman with conventional armour (the kind you dislike) and a ‘supermarket commercial’ pseudo-Arab on a cameloid with 6 legs. How imaginative and unusual.
On second thought, let’s have the girls in bikini armour…

Seriously though, if you peruse through Vallejo and Frazetta art books (let alone the Internet), between 75 and 99% of what they did involved very scantily clad or naked women. A minority shows ‘normal’ illustrations or are sufficiently ‘artsy’ (or playful) to rise above the level of being extremely tacky. Heck, Vallejo did the covers for the ‘Gor’ novels. You can’t sink much lower than that.

And Frazetta…well, he did some nice grim-faced barbarians. And a gazillion trillion billion babes with mighty boobs and bikini armour.

I know, I was there when the strength of teenage nerds failed, and Vallejo and Frazetta art books ended up in the bargain basements of Doom, and were condemned to stay there for an eternity while the ‘90s evolved into the third era, erm, millennium.

You seem upset. Are you feeling better now?

[Wulfram]

If you could use enchantment to make a chainmail bikini give adequate protection, why wouldn't you just make it a regular bikini instead?