151 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll never understand the people that cry for realism in fantasy games.

That's what you get for using a polysemous word all the while pretending it has only one meaning.

The answer to your question might be more apparent if you used the word 'versimilitude' or 'plausibility'.

Metal armor is useless against guys who can freeze you and I highly doubt most common metal armor in Thedas is shock and fireproof not to mention actual armor was useless against any archer who knew what they were doing there's a reason metal armor isn't used any more.

Dragon Age contains magical elves,Dwarves and dragons aswell so  sorry but the "plausibillity" argument doesn't fly with me in this circumstance sorry

Spears, swords, arrows and darts can still pierce a leather jerkin or a padded gambeson.

Mail hauberks and byrnies, while they provided great protection, were not invulnerable either.

Likewise even plate could be pierced by some weapons, and a man clad in plate armor was still vulnerable to weapons that inflicted blunt force trauma, like maces or war hammers.

Despite not being invulnerable, all of those armor types saw heavy use during different periods because they still provided some protection. And they were far better than the alternative, which was to go without armor completely. With that in mind, your argument that realistic protection from armors shouldn't be an issue in DA because of magic, simply doesn't hold water.

No, I'm pretty sure not wanting to go around like a shining lightning rod in your full plate is a legitimate concern. 

[marshalleck]

Wulfram wrote...

If you could use enchantment to make a chainmail bikini give adequate protection, why wouldn't you just make it a regular bikini instead?

Modesty.

[Shadow Fox]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll never understand the people that cry for realism in fantasy games.

That's what you get for using a polysemous word all the while pretending it has only one meaning.

The answer to your question might be more apparent if you used the word 'versimilitude' or 'plausibility'.

Metal armor is useless against guys who can freeze you and I highly doubt most common metal armor in Thedas is shock and fireproof not to mention actual armor was useless against any archer who knew what they were doing there's a reason metal armor isn't used any more.

Dragon Age contains magical elves,Dwarves and dragons aswell so  sorry but the "plausibillity" argument doesn't fly with me in this circumstance sorry

Spears, swords, arrows and darts can still pierce a leather jerkin or a padded gambeson.

Mail hauberks and byrnies, while they provided great protection, were not invulnerable either.

Likewise even plate could be pierced by some weapons, and a man clad in plate armor was still vulnerable to weapons that inflicted blunt force trauma, like maces or war hammers.

Despite not being invulnerable, all of those armor types saw heavy use during different periods because they still provided some protection. And they were far better than the alternative, which was to go without armor completely. With that in mind, your argument that realistic protection from armors shouldn't be an issue in DA because of magic, simply doesn't hold water.

I'll try to explain this as clearly as possible so you just might actually get it.

Armor evolves you'll notice how metal armor was phased out as technology advanced? That's because metal armor proved to be useless against projectitles and cumbersome compared to newly discovered materials.

Still with me? good now our world doesn't have guys with the power of the elements at they're command,wood as strong as steel yet flexible enough to craft into weapons&armor or dragons or Dwarves/mages that can make magic protection runes which would render heavy armor redundant in the firstplace.

See how arguing how such a world should comform to our world's medieval views of practicality are stupid yet?

[Yuoaman]

I would like the option to play as a mage and maybe not broadcast that fact to the world. Any smart group of bandits or anyone with any intelligence is going to first take out the guy who can toss fire with a thought and wearing freaking elaborate robes.

[berelinde]

legbamel wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I too hope that the armor designs look practical and realistic.

But that doesn't just extend to 'coverage.' Big blocky suits of armor for male characters that look like they have pauldrons that weigh 100 pounds a piece, are just as silly and ridiculous as the armors where a female character is showing cleavage or bearing her midriff.

Lets see some stuff like this: [snip seventeen metric tons of chainmail]

I would totally put this on my PC.  Or on me.  On a Tuesday.  To go to work.

Every time I see this, I think about how challenging it will be to show off her earings once her helmet slips and severs her ear. I guess she could always pierce her nose.

The rest of the armor is pretty much OK, except for the massive pinch point between her pauldron and her backplate. Somebody's going home with armor bites.

Edit: Then again, I'm not pushing for too much realism. It's Dragon Age, not Mount and Blade.

Modifié par berelinde, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Orian Tabris]

Want I don't want to see, is collars that look like triangular things that you might find on a train or a snowplow or even a bulldozer (I cannot think of what they are called). Collars like on the warrior and mage Mantle of the Champion armour. It looks stupid and doesn't feel like it's protecting anything.

I would like to see armour that is breatheable AND functional.

I don't really want armour that focuses on protection, but covers joints and the neck up. With the female versions of say, warrior armour, I think chainmail in certain places, in place of plate would work.

For example, think of a warrior armour (not including the helmet, gauntlets and boots) that only has plate, but exposes the chest area above the nipples (and above) and maybe exposes the upper legs. It also leaves the arm pits exposed, but there are shoulder plates resting on the skin. Cover all that up with skin tight chainmail that displays curves. With the neck, the chainmail either reaches up to just below the throat, or it doesn't cover the neck at all, but instead stops just past (going up) the collar bone. Now you've got a sexy, breatheable piece of armour for women warriors, that does work stifle combat prowess.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[Han Shot First]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll try to explain this as clearly as possible so you just might actually get it.

Armor evolves you'll notice how metal armor was phased out as technology advanced? That's because metal armor proved to be useless against projectitles and cumbersome compared to newly discovered materials.

Still with me? good now our world doesn't have guys with the power of the elements at they're command,wood as strong as steel yet flexible enough to craft into weapons&armor or dragons or Dwarves/mages that can make magic protection runes which would render heavy armor redundant in the firstplace.

See how arguing how such a world should comform to our world's medieval views of practicality are stupid yet?

Your argument fails because magic isn't the only 'weapon' a warrior might face, and that armor protects against all the conventional weaponry he's likely to face, all of which is also much more abundant than rogue mages. Even if armor was completely useless against magic it still protects from swords and spears and arrows. And in the DA universe armor isn't completely useless against magic, as the armor itself can be imbued with magical resistances to certain attacks.

When firearms start to dominate warfare in the lore, then we can talk about armor having become obsolete.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 05 octobre 2012 - 12:00 .

[berelinde]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Want I don't want to see, is collars that look like triangular things that you might find on a train or a snowplow or even a bulldozer (I cannot think of what they are called). Collars like on the warrior and mage Mantle of the Champion armour. It looks stupid and doesn't feel like it's protecting anything.

It's a type of gorget. It does have historical precedent as part of jousting armor, but it was never commonly used. It was intended to deflect the tip of the lance away from the throat. It was intended to protect against shots coming up from below. Against a sword or axe coming in from the side or above, it was pretty much useless.

[meanieweenie]

berelinde wrote...

Every time I see this, I think about how challenging it will be to show off her earings once her helmet slips and severs her ear. I guess she could always pierce her nose.

Ok, this made me lol. Thank you berelinde!

[The Baconer]

I just want more armor for mages. Like, cut down on the nightgowns by 90%.

Also....

legbamel wrote...



I would totally put this on my PC.  Or on me.  On a Tuesday.  To go to work.

What in the frack is that material covering her chest/stomach?

[Shadow Fox]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

I'll try to explain this as clearly as possible so you just might actually get it.

Armor evolves you'll notice how metal armor was phased out as technology advanced? That's because metal armor proved to be useless against projectitles and cumbersome compared to newly discovered materials.

Still with me? good now our world doesn't have guys with the power of the elements at they're command,wood as strong as steel yet flexible enough to craft into weapons&armor or dragons or Dwarves/mages that can make magic protection runes which would render heavy armor redundant in the firstplace.

See how arguing how such a world should comform to our world's medieval views of practicality are stupid yet?

Your argument fails because magic isn't the only 'weapon' a warrior might face, and that armor protects against all the conventional weaponry he's likely to face, all of which is also much more abundant than rogue mages. Even if armor was completely useless against magic it still protects from swords and spears and arrows. And in the DA universe armor isn't completely useless against magic, as the armor itself can be imbued with magical resistances to certain attacks.

When firearms start to dominate warfare in the lore, then we can talk about armor having become obsolete.

It's pointless arguing with you

[DreGregoire]

I don't want my female mage to look like a teenager going to a school dance, and I don't want my female rogue to look like she is a slave. I would prefer equality in clothing, meaning if it covers the male up it should cover the female as well. I mean, Wynne looked so wrong, to me, when I tried to change her out of her tower mage robes into something more useful. And I know they were probably just trying to hide the neckline in DAO but I really hated the female leather armor's plunging neckline. Dagger to the chest anybody? And while on the subject not being able to put our companions in more sensible gear is a bit immersion breaking because I definately wouldn't allow anybody I took to battle to get by in a (wear a) shift.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[berelinde]

@The Baconer:  Metal splints.

Dragon Age 2 has one or two impractical pieces (mage armor with snack shelf leaps to mind), but for the most part it isn't too bad. Some of the pauldrons are way oversized, and in general, it's a little on the spiky side, but as fantasy game armor goes, it could be a lot worse.

Modifié par berelinde, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Das Tentakel]

The Baconer wrote...

I just want more armor for mages. Like, cut down on the nightgowns by 90%.

Also....

legbamel wrote...



I would totally put this on my PC.  Or on me.  On a Tuesday.  To go to work.

What in the frack is that material covering her chest/stomach?

As Berelinde said. You get a better idea behind the armour concept here when you look at this picture:



It’s a splint corset. Nice LARP armour. You do need a certain body shape to make this look good…

Splint torso armour like this is a D&D invention I think (Alistair wears an example in DA:O). As far as I know, it was historically only used for limb armour.

Regarding that gorget, while I’ve seen lots of plate armour in museums, books and re-enactment, I’ve never encountered something like the Hawke ‘food trough’ (lots of gorgets though). I did find something that looks broadly similar in some photos of modern jousting armour from the USA, but there was plenty of variety in late medieval armour so perhaps I just haven’t run into the historical original. Jousting armour is a somewhat special category anyway.

However, another BSN member (sorry, can’t remember the name) pointed out this:



Isaac’s ‘space armour’ in the first Deadspace game (2008) was almost certainly the direct inspiration. Another EA game by the way.
As for DA:O and DA2’s armour not being ‘too bad’, the direct inspiration for most of it seems to be the ‘less over the top’ end in the range of artwork depicting armour from D&D 3.0 (as well other similar ‘mainstream’ fantasy games)and later. Not historical armour as such. The relationship with historical armour, I think, is a very indirect one.
The shift towards more belts and spikes may reflect a similar shift in mainstream fantasy RPG artwork during the last decade or so.

In the sense that characters are at least wearing recognisable armour and not fighting in their undies or wearing elaborate Christmas Tree lighting, I agree with Berelinde. Not too bad.
Not too great either, nor particularly distinctive. Serviceable, but apparently sort of breaking down for many people wherever things get too fleshy or too spiky.



Edit:
But hey, maybe this is the way going forward (at least for canine armour) :

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 05 octobre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Han Shot First]

Some people seem to be taking the position that since Dragon Age is set in a fantasy setting, that the armors shouldn't have to use real world armors as an inspiration. I'm not sure why that is, when both the most popular films with a fantasy setting (Lord of the Rings) and the most popular fantasy TV series (Game of Thrones), both have armors that look practical and that are obviously inspired by real medieval designs.



Lord of the Rings:












Game of Thrones:
















Even Snow White and the Huntsmen, another recent fantasy based film, had armors based on realistic designs:








With all of the above in mind, I'm not sure why a game set in a fantasy setting must have chainmail bikinis and Pauldrons of Ridiculousness +20.

[SirPetrakus]

The main point of armor is functionality. Protection, without inhibiting movement and most certainly, not channeling hazardous elements. Full plate, especially in its most advanced form, was built with that in mind. It was made with both slashing and blunt weapon protection. It would bend to absord the force of the blow and distribute it evenly, while also being rather light to maneuver in, compared to older forms of full plate, though. Still, you would carry steel weapons and armor in the middle of a rainstorm or go packing full of them to an expedition to the north pole. Full Plate was mostly used for exhibition or large scale combat.

In a world full of mages that can command the elements, you would take special protection against them. Normally, you wouldn't face an elementalist neither in a steel breastplate, nor hide armor. You would, however, if said armors were also enchanted to offer protection from said elements. The idea that you'd attack someone, half naked, because hide or leather is vulnerable to fire or because steel is conductive of electricity, is just riddiculous. You are just as succeptible to the elements and now even more prone to get stabbed.

Modifié par SirPetrakus, 05 octobre 2012 - 11:58 .

[The Baconer]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Regarding that gorget, while I’ve seen lots of plate armour in museums, books and re-enactment, I’ve never encountered something like the Hawke ‘food trough’ (lots of gorgets though). I did find something that looks broadly similar in some photos of modern jousting armour from the USA, but there was plenty of variety in late medieval armour so perhaps I just haven’t run into the historical original. Jousting armour is a somewhat special category anyway.

However, another BSN member (sorry, can’t remember the name) pointed out this:



Isaac’s ‘space armour’ in the first Deadspace game (2008) was almost certainly the direct inspiration. Another EA game by the way.

I highly doubt it was directly inspired by Isaac's suit. Hawke's 'trough' just looks like a really angular bevor.

[Das Tentakel]

The Baconer wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

Regarding that gorget, while I’ve seen lots of plate armour in museums, books and re-enactment, I’ve never encountered something like the Hawke ‘food trough’ (lots of gorgets though). I did find something that looks broadly similar in some photos of modern jousting armour from the USA, but there was plenty of variety in late medieval armour so perhaps I just haven’t run into the historical original. Jousting armour is a somewhat special category anyway.

However, another BSN member (sorry, can’t remember the name) pointed out this:



Isaac’s ‘space armour’ in the first Deadspace game (2008) was almost certainly the direct inspiration. Another EA game by the way.

I highly doubt it was directly inspired by Isaac's suit. Hawke's 'trough' just looks like a really angular bevor.

Au contraire, Hawke's feeding trough doesn't look like any bevor I've seen, though at first I thought the idea came from it (it still may, indirectly). If you look at Hawke (in-game and most of the earlier concept art) it's exactly on more or less the same place on the chest, too low for a bevor (there are one or two exceptions - probably due to the artist's interpretation). In the 2008 game, the 'trough' thingie on Isaac's armour is initially rounded, but at the end of the game it is already somewhat triangular. In the second game (released a couple of months before DA2), it is definitely triangular, and as as a result the 'Isaac Clarke' armour in DA2 is mostly recognisable because of the helmet - the 'trough' having been adopted by DA2 as well, and thus no longer distinctive.



Isaac Clarke, Dead Space ending



Isaac Clarke, Dead Space 2 concept art (Destructoid, 27 february 2010)



Hawke, Dragon Age II, concept art





Isaac of Clarke armour, Dragon Age II

Two examples of bevors:



Female reenactor, Gebroeders Van Limburg Festival, Nijmegen



Another woman being kitted out in plate. With the visor down, she's pretty much covered and protected in front.

There may be an indirect influence by way of this:



Fantasy artists borrow from each other all the time. Jackson had people who knew their stuff, but that's not necessarily the case with other concept artists; they copy what they like and change and modify things based on their own aesthetic preferences, without being bothered too much with the how and why and such boring minutiae like functionality.

[Vicious]

 They need to ditch the Robes. No one likes them and there's no functional reason for them to be wearing it. This isn't Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. There are plenty of burly and barrel chested Mages out there. Should they got teh uber plate? No, but they shouldn't go into battle wearing dresses either, unless that's their thing.

The Grey Warden Mage Armor from DA2 was a good start. So was Hawke's Champion armor for Mages [though it looked less like a city champion and more like a badass hedge mage with pieced together armor]

[Josielyn]

[quote]sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

A nice combo between arty looking (in other words stylish fantasy game looking) armour that still looks like it would be great.

Depending on the class, and maybe even personal preference of a character, that still leaves an infinite amount of possibilities open on how it should look/designed etc..

This might be a great inspiration for the 'real life medieval approach' and pimped up on the drawing table to look cool ingame:



--
I have this book and it is awesome.  I didn't know anything about how armor is put together and this book has very good drawings and pictures showing different styles and techniques. I bought it so that I could start making cosplay armor, but this book even tells you what you would need to set up a workshop.  I think I paid about $50.00 USD at Books A Million for it.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Dhiro wrote...

I wouldn't want Isabela in full armor the same way I wouldn't want Aveline in chainmail bikini.

Some of us would be happy to see Aveline in a chainmail bikini. Just saying.

[withneelandi]

I always get a little confused with this talk of "cool" in the context of RPG's.

Thats one of the things I loved about DA:O, it wasn't cool and it didn't try to be. It was a fantasy RPG very much in the "inspired by the lord of rings" style, it knew it was good honest geeky fun. The armour was .... armour and none of the equiptment felt out of place for the setting.

Then we get to DA:2, which definately wanted to be "cool". Problem is, its an RPG, nothing cool about RPG's but thats almost the point, right?

We have Isabella wearing a glorified bikini, for the whole game, no matter how big a fight she is about to go into.

"We're about to fight a dragon Isabella, you sure you don't want some armour?"

"Nah its ok. It might mess up my hair"

Varrics look just felt out of place to me. Trenchcoats? in a fantasy setting? Weird pump action semi automatic crossbow thingys? He felt like he had been parachuted in from some sort of Square enix steampunky post apocalypic thing. His trenchcoat and medallion get up could just about work as a casual non combat type thing, but again it made no sense that he went on the deep roads mission without wearing something a tad more practical.

For me, its not about having every character in head to toe plate, but just asking "does this outfit make sense in context, both for the overall setting and what the character is doing". For me the answer to that question was "no" too many times in Da:2.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Although i never played Tera MMO, it has fantastic armors, and i want something like that in game.