267 réponses à ce sujet

[marktcameron]

The Last Straw , Wayward Son and Demands of the Qun if you can make dragon age 3 similar to these three quest then you will have a successful game.

[Fast Jimmy]

Hmmm.

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, but this last post intrigues me.

What, exactly, about these quests sets them apart from the rest of DA2 as a whole?

[XCelfa]

Okay so after reading up to page six of this thread, noting the massive derailment that occurred, and then re-reading the original post, I just want to make one comment.

"Catering to all groups" usually translates to "including women and homosexuals" in my observation. So as a queer lady, I'd like to tip my hat in passing, safe and secure in the knowledge that Bioware will not abandon me or my ilk to pander.

Good day

[Androme]

Lol Baldurs Gate appealing to a wider group of people haha

[DarkKnightHolmes]

XCelfa wrote...

Okay so after reading up to page six of this thread, noting the massive derailment that occurred, and then re-reading the original post, I just want to make one comment.

"Catering to all groups" usually translates to "including women and homosexuals" in my observation. So as a queer lady, I'd like to tip my hat in passing, safe and secure in the knowledge that Bioware will not abandon me or my ilk to pander.

Good day

He meant the type of gamers (you know, stuff like RPG fans, Shooter fans etc)  not a persons sexuality or gender.

[Monica83]

David Gaider wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
On a serious note, I think it's difficult to remain confident in Dragon Age 3 after watching the PAX panel. You guys addressed some of the key issues with DA2, but failed to say what people wanted to hear: less like DA2, more like Origins.

All the 'in defense of DA2' Mike Laidlaw interviews and articles out there certainly don't help. It's one thing to take pride in your work, but it's quite another to claim that it's great and that people just don't get it. When a game needs to be defended by one of it's lead designers, it's not a good game.

Mike said that we will end up somewhere between DAO and DA2. Why some people would interpret that as "oh, so you're going back to DAO style then?" I'm not really sure. Perhaps because they want it to? If you intend to interpret us believing DA2's direction was a good thing even if there were parts of it that need work or even a complete rethinking as "DA2 was awesome and everybody loved it"... that's not really going to help your argument. Nor is "every fany hated DA2", as that's also not true.

In the end, DA3 will have elements of both DAO and DA2. Yes, it may have elements of DA2 you think we should just abandon. It is definitely not going to go back to everything that DAO had. If that's a deal-breaker for you right there, then there you go. If you would prefer to wait until we show you what we have in mind, or come back once that's happened, that's great too. Undoubtedly not everyone will be happy with every single choice we're making for DA3, but that's rather inevitable at this point considering all the different opinions even here on the forums (as much as some people try to claim that there's a consensus).

And... is it frustrating to keep hearing that? I imagine so. Everyone wants to know RIGHT NOW. But you're likely going to be waiting a while for more info.

And will end to be another mediocre game... don't take this like the ultimate distruction criticism but in fact DAO and DA2 are too much different games from eachother just because one is an RPG old School one is a Para-Rpg with action elements....

Now you can blend and old school rpg with an action one? i'm not sure

They have just a different fanbase benhind.. ther is of course who like both... But the best result is make a pure genuine type of game and not a sort of bowl with elements of this and element of that because the result will be just mediocre...

And from bioware i expect good product not mediocre one..

And for sure all the lies in the marketing don't help.....

[Sylvius the Mad]

Monica83 wrote...

And will end to be another mediocre game... don't take this like the ultimate distruction criticism but in fact DAO and DA2 are too much different games from eachother just because one is an RPG old School one is a Para-Rpg with action elements....

What was old school about DAO?  There were cinematics, full 3D environments, the combat mechanics were hidden from the players - I think DAO was a very modern RPG.

[Fast Jimmy]

^
It had a silent PC and text you had to actually read.

That's, like, SO 1997.

[Monica83]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

And will end to be another mediocre game... don't take this like the ultimate distruction criticism but in fact DAO and DA2 are too much different games from eachother just because one is an RPG old School one is a Para-Rpg with action elements....

What was old school about DAO?  There were cinematics, full 3D environments, the combat mechanics were hidden from the players - I think DAO was a very modern RPG.

Of course not old school like baldur's gate my favourite one... but the imprinting there is there...

What i desire is:

Full written dialogues with no voiced PC
Micromanagment like companion armor not restricted not only combat ability and also the opportunity to cross class in order to make my distinct character and not a static one....
Envirovment full of details bookshelf with book that you can actually Read.... "Even skyrim have books and is very action as a game" No more large empty areas with static npc...
Ennemey that can give you serious trouble in a tactical overall combat feel.... I still remember the first time i faced the demi lich in baldours gate 2 that was a fight...
No morte things like thief that poofs and teleport benhind  the opponent ala naruto style.... that was very immersion breaking for me.. if i am a thief i want hide myself and find a way to take ennemy by surprise.....
No more restricted style by class... I mean.. Rougue (archer dual wielder..) Warrior (Two handed weapon or sword and shield)
A complex story with nice story driven sidequest (that miss also in dao) i mean no more sidequest like:

Go there kill the mobs return back and yay....

More exploration feeling... I want immersion
A world that feel alive... Baldur's gate 2 is old yes but i still feel it like a living world.. And not a desert of lacking details and static npc like dragon age 2......

[FutharkTomahawk]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^
It had a silent PC and text you had to actually read.

That's, like, SO 1997.

And great blessings upon it for being as such. 

Edit: I think Monica83 is right on the money. 

Modifié par FutharkTomahawk, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Volus Warlord]

Look, all you elitists of the "RPG master race" need to get your head out of your backside. You were a niche market.

Pandermonium is the new game design philosophy. That, and aggressive self-satisfaction. We will broad the base as much as possible to have a broad foundation to build upon, and then build a ramshackle hovel on our foundation because we ran out of time and/or money to build anything better. Then we will turn around and realize our foundation is cracked in several areas where we thought it'd be strong. However, we will not acknowledge the foundation is cracked or that no one wants the ramshackle hovel, or the license to play the ramshackle hovel, and we will-through various sources-talk down on any that criticize our construct or the process to make it.

[Monica83]

Volus is funny your post i like it....

Rpg elitist... Maybe...But i have also action rpg's what i mean is... DA2 is not shiny as a RPG and is also not shiny like an action game... In the end is a mix whitout charisma but this is my opinion

[Quicksilver26]

XCelfa wrote...

Okay so after reading up to page six of this thread, noting the massive derailment that occurred, and then re-reading the original post, I just want to make one comment.

"Catering to all groups" usually translates to "including women and homosexuals" in my observation. So as a queer lady, I'd like to tip my hat in passing, safe and secure in the knowledge that Bioware will not abandon me or my ilk to pander.

Good day

woot you just became my favorite person of the day +100:wizard:

[Realmzmaster]

What I want in a crpg.

A voiced protagonist or failing that no voices for any of the companions or NPCs. Let me read all the responses and only have music and sound effects.
I want to see the rogue in DA2 continue as it is. I like the fact that the rogue uses smoke to move around the enemy instead of the shuffle into place while getting pounded in DAO. If I remember thieves, ninjas and other roguish types did make use of smoke to obscure movement while in a fight.
Micromanaging is fine, but I want to see a system where the game can level up a character based on the available armor and weapons in Inventory to make it easier for gamers who do not wish to engage in the micromanaging activity. The same as with leveling up of attributes.

I want to see a more personal story like DA2. I like the companion quests in DA2 and party banter, but I cannot have a voiced PC then just show the banter in the text window. Also allow the PC to be able to interrupt the conversation to join in.

If I enter a city in DA3 I want the option to be able to take a quest that eliminates the gangs in the city or be randomly attacked by a gang if the party is strolling the streets. I want the ability to upset a gang to the point they devote considerable resources to my party's elimination.

I also would like to see the return of food and water requirements. I want a weight system so that the amount of inventory that can be carried is limited. I want a magic system based on the Wizardry model where the caster can cast any spell known and select the amount of power to put into the spell or set it in the tactics screen.

I want weather conditions to be a factor. I want the ability for the party to freeze to death without the proper attire or to die of heatstroke if wearing full plate in 102 degree weather.

I want permadeath of a companion. I mean no silly resurrection or raise dead spells. If the character dies that all related quests become unavailable. If a character dies it has an effect on the rest of the party to the point the PC's leadership is questioned and some companions may leave.

No more instant mana and health regeneration. Health and mana regenerate over time. I want to see poison and disease effects. I want to see a first aid skill if no healer is available.

I want enemies that kill the party not because of health bloat, but because the enemy has attacks that if the party survives they can learn.
I want to be able to find spells and runes. I want weapons and armor that require upkeep either by learning a skill or paying for the maintenance.

I want an end to an endless supply of arrows and silly abilities like scattershot and rain of arrows. I also do not want to see plus anything arrows or enemies that con only be hit by plus 3 weapons.

Maybe the return of turn based combat.

I can list more of what I would like to see, but I think this list is a good start.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 05 octobre 2012 - 02:05 .

[NedPepper]

eroeru wrote...

Seth_Holloway wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The passive aggressiveness isn't necessary.

If you feel our games are nothing more than railroading with a linear story and you're convinced that that is what we're intent on focusing on, I'm not getting the impression that you're actually that interested in having any sort of discussion but rather have a bone to pick.

I've always wondered about that, If people really dislike the games why all the repeat interest?

Because they LOVED the previous games, and revere them as a legacy of sorts, as a progenitor to a successful reputation.
Moreso that the reputable part includes an original to the contested sequel.

Even though this was discussed a few pages back, I think it's interesting.

I think of it like the comic book industry.  In fact, there are a lot of shared audience, I imagine, between the two.  Comic book fans are extremely loyal and yet extremely critical.  Part of it comes out of the fact that the characters have been around a long time.  These are characters who the fanbase has grown up with.  It takes A LOT to push them away, and it does happen.  (Recently to be honest.)  The comic book fans who are growing longer in tooth remember stories from the sixties and seventies.  They have a LIFETIME following the lore, the characters, the universe.  It's a commitment.  But they will tell you at the drop of a dime how much better comics were in their day.  You also have the generation that came from the eighties and nineties.  And you have today's comic book fans.

Part of it is a sense of shared community.  It's more than just comic books.  It a little cultural niche.  Role playing games are exactly the same.

I always say the best comic book creators build bridges.  Peter David is a good example.  He's been writing since the early 80s.  He's seen it all, and yet he still writes comics to this day.  He is able to capture that old spirit while adapting to a new editorial mandate.  The writers and artists who did this stick around.  Those who don't become time capsule creators, who lose their voice and careers for not being able to adapt.

Let's look at Bioware's RPGs.  They have evolved and they will continue to.  The secret is the bridge building.  If you can build a bridge from Baldur's Gate to Dragon Age 2, then the fans will stick around.  So why are they still here?  I'd say it's because Bioware has built that bridge and will continue to do so. 

And people will still complain about the good old days.  Yet...they'll probably buy Dragon Age 3.

If not, then they prefer games in a time capsule.  And that's fine, too.  You can still play Baldur's Gate.

[Fraevar]

I see a lot of frustration here for or against "railroading". I don't necessarily think scripting is the route of all evil, but I do think it has to be handled very carefully. Looking back at many comments about ME3, the underlying theme there seems to have been that the series was marketed and repeatedly positioned as one with widely diverging paths and content, only to be funneled into one static point at the end - a point that couldn't even take into account that the situation it was presenting had ample opportunity to have already been resolved by the player and thus was invalid to that player.

DA2 had a similar critique - no matter how supportive you may have been of mages or how much you've resisted supporting blood magic, certain groups will just *always* accuse you of working for Meredith and Orsino will always just go "naaaaah I'm gonna just turn into The Harvester now!" no matter what.

I think that large, scripted sequences in BioWare games are doable, but they require a lot more work than in other titles because they will have to fit thematically, not just mechanically with whatever multiple paths the developers have allowed the players to pursue up to that point. If that's not a viable option, then maybe it's not wise to have the large, scripted sequence, but instead do something on a smaller scale?

[Jadebaby]

OPINIONS!

[eroeru]

nedpepper wrote...
And people will still complain about the good old days.  Yet...they'll probably buy Dragon Age 3.

They'll (we'll?) not buy as many things DA2-related though. I think.

Modifié par eroeru, 05 octobre 2012 - 11:46 .

[eroeru]

marktcameron wrote...

The Last Straw , Wayward Son and Demands of the Qun if you can make dragon age 3 similar to these three quest then you will have a successful game.

I've maintained that Bioware games aren't as much about quests as they are about characters and adventure.

Adventure was scrapped in 2, characters felt imho more cheap and cheesy than they've ever been (especially the main character). Not to mention the lack of depth many felt for the main character, as we couldn't be a part of shaping his personality, we were given the-more awful felt the cheesy and the very niche character voice-overed protag.

Modifié par eroeru, 05 octobre 2012 - 11:50 .

[SirPetrakus]

David Gaider wrote...

Mike said that we will end up somewhere between DAO and DA2. Why some people would interpret that as "oh, so you're going back to DAO style then?" I'm not really sure. Perhaps because they want it to? If you intend to interpret us believing DA2's direction was a good thing even if there were parts of it that need work or even a complete rethinking as "DA2 was awesome and everybody loved it"... that's not really going to help your argument. Nor is "every fany hated DA2", as that's also not true.

In the end, DA3 will have elements of both DAO and DA2. Yes, it may have elements of DA2 you think we should just abandon. It is definitely not going to go back to everything that DAO had. If that's a deal-breaker for you right there, then there you go. If you would prefer to wait until we show you what we have in mind, or come back once that's happened, that's great too. Undoubtedly not everyone will be happy with every single choice we're making for DA3, but that's rather inevitable at this point considering all the different opinions even here on the forums (as much as some people try to claim that there's a consensus).

And... is it frustrating to keep hearing that? I imagine so. Everyone wants to know RIGHT NOW. But you're likely going to be waiting a while for more info.

I have a few gripes with the game. And by 'the game', I mean DA2. Reasons which led to it being a no purchase. For me anyways.

1. I did not care for most of the characters. They were not the kind of people I would normally associate with. I found that most of them just got on my nerves. Deffinitely a far cry from other, much more liked characters that you've writen before. And I say most, because I did like Varric. Even if he is a filthy, dishonoured dwarf that shaves his beard. Inexcusable!  Still, this is personal taste, can't be taken into consideration. If anything, I nonetheless consider it powerful writing.

2. I did not like the combat system. The 'waves' mechanic made little sense, was hard to nail down a strategy, since there would be enemies spawning out of nowhere within my party's ranks at random and the action itself was too flamboyant for myself. Not exactly what I'd expect of the much advertised "tactical combat". Maybe more fast paced than DA:O, more exciting, but deffinitely removed much of the tactics to it.

3. The setting. A single city. I did not care for Kirkwall. The plot itself, the templar/blood mage conflict, was way too broad to feel in any way integral to the plot, things happened that I had no control over and for some reason I was the champion or the traitor. Couldn't get into it. Again, though, personal preference and I have to give credit to the writing team for creating a plot that is the slow unraveling of a trainwreck; you can see it happening, but it's so big, there's nothing you can do to stop it. If the plot point is the inevitable reprecussions of conflict, they did a great job of portraying it.

4. The Inventory system was brilliant ... in its absence. DA:O's system wasn't stellar to begin with, but with a little tweaking, it could have been great. Since it would have to accomondate console controls as well, it would be difficult to implement the exact inventory system that Baldur's Gate had, which I found to be extremely functional. However, I found that Dungeon Siege 3 had a very, very versatile inventory system, just by refining and adding a few categories in a menu similar to DA:O's, that would have worked splendidly for both PC and console. Also, no storing space in DA:O, without DLC. In BG2, we at least had a bag of holding and in Icewind Dale, we had a few containers of sort, to tide us over till the next vendor.

5. Loot. Too samey in DA:O, to the point that it felt pointless, almost non existant in DA2. The item tiers were a horrible idea as well. Have a few items that feel truly unique. Remember the Ring of Gaxx, Carsomyr, Crimson Blade? Add something similar. Not as overpowering as the aforementioned, but certainly more memorable than Long Sword +3: it does nothing. Also, mages were incredibly underrepresented in the gear department.

6. Crafting & Enchanting. Was there even any in DA2? Again, in Baldur's Gate II and ToB you could craft or upgrade weapons and armour out of materials. While the dragon scale armors in DA:O were brilliant and felt unique enough and some other sets as well, there wasn't really enough variation or enough sets to go around for the entire group of NPCs. The rune system was greatly underused and underpowered, making runic weapons almost as bad as the rest of them, with very few exceptions. Runic enchantments shouldn't be limited to weapons, imho, nor should they require slots. Make them available for all gear, just make them irreversible and progressively more costly. That way, you should really think twice before you enchant that Rapier +2 with a Grandmaster rune that adds 25% attack speed, when there's Fast-tooth, the +3 short sword that also deals 10 bleeding damage/round, but you get it 2 dungeons later and costs 2GP more to enchant.

7. Future plot. You've already stated that DA3 will be about the Inquisitor (The game's called Inquisition, duh!). I'm really curious about the way this plot will play out. We get this PC that, if the order is similar to the real Spanish Inquisition, as opposed to the Monty Python one, can be a very ambigouous character. You could be a true champion of justice on one hand, solving the mystery of whodunit and helping the righteous rise to power through a sea of lies and intrigue, or you could be the manifestation of Torquemada, a  merciless, power hungry man with no end to your amition or someone just as coniving as your enemy, placing a shadow puppet at the seat of power.

There are good ideas all around, most from the development team of course and a few from the community. There is material here for a great game, all you need to do is take advantage of the setting's potential. You have done it before, why not again?

Modifié par SirPetrakus, 05 octobre 2012 - 01:24 .

[Galactus_the_Devourer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

And will end to be another mediocre game... don't take this like the ultimate distruction criticism but in fact DAO and DA2 are too much different games from eachother just because one is an RPG old School one is a Para-Rpg with action elements....

What was old school about DAO?  There were cinematics, full 3D environments, the combat mechanics were hidden from the players - I think DAO was a very modern RPG.

Isometric camera, party-based combat, silent protagonist, dialogue trees, enemies who followed roughly the same rules as you did... 

[Rawgrim]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I'm more concern they cater to a certain group who do not want to roleplay but wanting to direct interactive movie character with romance or maybe JRPG fans. A wrong kind of focus group.

100 times this.

[Androme]

Rawgrim wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I'm more concern they cater to a certain group who do not want to roleplay but wanting to direct interactive movie character with romance or maybe JRPG fans. A wrong kind of focus group.

100 times this.

Yep, this so much

[Realmzmaster]

So basically what you are saying is cater to my group and forget about any other groups. My group is the important one. Do not worry about expanding the audience or making more profit. Be happy with the profit you get from my little group.

If the profit you make is not enough suck it up and make up that money elsewhere. Do not worry about giving your employees any raises. Do not worry about making your stockholders any money.
If you please my group all that will be taken care of.