267 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

Lol, the op has hit a nerve it seems. This is Bioware's biggest problem imo - designing by committee.

Modifié par slimgrin, 05 octobre 2012 - 05:05 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

If you want to see game that tries to cater to everyone, look no further than the Fable series. It tries to be RPG, action adventure, shooter, and The Sims, all in one game. It fails at all of those things because it's not dedicated to simply one or the other.

The minute Dragon Age goes down that path is the minute I retire the series.

[Foolsfolly]

slimgrin wrote...

Lol, the op has hit a nerve it seems. This is Bioware's biggest problem imo - designing by committee.

Design my committee is how you end up with every Pixar movie to date. And reportedly Casey Hudson and Mac Walters came up with the ending to ME3 and it wasn't peer reviewed in-house.

...

...

...sometimes having group made decisions are better than one person's vision. I believe that's the exact reason why the Star Wars Prequels suck. George Lucas didn't have anyone to tell him "This isn't good, George." Or "You forgot a subplot from Episode 2 about someone ordering the clone army."

[Fast Jimmy]

^

...


...



...are you insulting Pixar movies? Like the Incredibles?

If so... we're going to have to step outside.

[Galactus_the_Devourer]

Realmzmaster wrote...

So basically what you are saying is cater to my group and forget about any other groups. My group is the important one. Do not worry about expanding the audience or making more profit. Be happy with the profit you get from my little group.

If the profit you make is not enough suck it up and make up that money elsewhere. Do not worry about giving your employees any raises. Do not worry about making your stockholders any money.
If you please my group all that will be taken care of.

Duh, that's kind of obvious isn't it? It's essentially what everyone is doing, in every conversation on every message board ever. (yes, back to the pre-BG2 days when Karzak and Gromnir were around) 

[Foolsfolly]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

...


...



...are you insulting Pixar movies? Like the Incredibles?

If so... we're going to have to step outside.

I'm doing the exact opposite. The poster I quoted seems to think (or implies) that design by committee is somehow bad. It can be bad but so can design by one person's ego. How a product is made (especially a creative product) is usually interesting to learn about but utterly meaningless when you're looking at the finished product.

And The Incredibles is my favorite Pixar movie. I'd never speak ill of it. That thing is a masterpiece at showing how you can use action beats to drive character development. That's a lesson no one in Hollywood is even remotely interested in learning. Pixar mastered it.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

...


...



...are you insulting Pixar movies? Like the Incredibles?

If so... we're going to have to step outside.

I think he praised Pixar not insult.

[Realmzmaster]

Galactus_the_Devourer wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

So basically what you are saying is cater to my group and forget about any other groups. My group is the important one. Do not worry about expanding the audience or making more profit. Be happy with the profit you get from my little group.

If the profit you make is not enough suck it up and make up that money elsewhere. Do not worry about giving your employees any raises. Do not worry about making your stockholders any money.
If you please my group all that will be taken care of.

Duh, that's kind of obvious isn't it? It's essentially what everyone is doing, in every conversation on every message board ever. (yes, back to the pre-BG2 days when Karzak and Gromnir were around) 

Made no sense back then makes no sense now. Businesses cannot work that way and probably never will.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[Realmzmaster]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

...


...



...are you insulting Pixar movies? Like the Incredibles?

If so... we're going to have to step outside.

I'm doing the exact opposite. The poster I quoted seems to think (or implies) that design by committee is somehow bad. It can be bad but so can design by one person's ego. How a product is made (especially a creative product) is usually interesting to learn about but utterly meaningless when you're looking at the finished product.

And The Incredibles is my favorite Pixar movie. I'd never speak ill of it. That thing is a masterpiece at showing how you can use action beats to drive character development. That's a lesson no one in Hollywood is even remotely interested in learning. Pixar mastered it.

The idea when it comes to creative products or any product for that matter is to have someone else look at it and critique it. It is like proofreading a paper. Give the paper to someone else or a group to proofread it and that person will probably find far more mistakes than the person who wrote the paper. Why? Because the person who wrote it will fill in blanks or gloss over the mistakes in his/her mind.

The ending for ME3 could have used review before it went out the door especially given the fact that the release date was pushed back. This is why some film makers screen their movies to focus groups. It is not a perfect solution but it can help.

Also sometimes we have to learn to leave the ego at the door, accept the criticism and make changes.

[Salaya]

I've always tried to mantain a respectful tone when critizing DA2 -a game that I really dislike-. It's a game that, in my opinion, destroyed whatever chance Dragon Age franchise had to be "Great"; sometimes is difficult to keep that attitude since Origins is a game I love, and reading some dev comments makes me think they don't like what the original game acomplished.

What I'm trying to say is that I feel a bit discouraged reading again that line about "a mix/a middle ground" between DAO and DA2, because we've already been mislead with the last two titles (DA2 and the "best" elements of Origins and ME3 with the EMS fiasco), and everything seems to imply that we are just going to see a polisehd version of DA2 tone and childish gameplay.

Don't take me wrong, I really wish you make a wonderful new game. I really hope so, in fact; but also I'm pretty sure that some DA2 elements would be "deal-breaker" for me if still present in DA3 (at the same time, there are things erased from Origins in DA2 that would make DA3 auto-buy for me).

So, my final question is... that line about the middle ground, ¿it means that some gameplay elements of Origins that were erased in DA2 are going back in DA3?

[Realmzmaster]

The general consensus from what I can gleam from the forums is that the re-used environments were a mistake. That is almost universal. Everything else is up to individual preference.
There are sub groups with in the group. Voice vs unvoiced (Once the genie is out of the bottle it is very tough to put it back in). The combat in DAO (tactical) vs the combat from DA2 (more actiony?) The mage and rogue types in DAO compared to the ones in DA2.

So whatever features DA3 has is going to have will be a deal breaker for someone. The point is can Bioware create a game that will satisfy enough of the gamers in the different groups. Time will tell.

But if Bioware makes a game specifically for me per my specifications I can guarantee a sale of at least one. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 05 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Also sometimes we have to learn to leave the ego at the door, accept the criticism and make changes.

And sometimes we have to say "the deadline to have this done was four weeks ago, let's just cram this in a box and get it out the door."

Sometimes. Just saying.

[Galactus_the_Devourer]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The general consensus from what I can gleam from the forums is that the re-used environments were a mistake. That is almost universal. Everything else is up to individual preference.
There are sub groups with in the group. Voice vs unvoiced (Once the genie is out of the bottle it is very tough to put it back in). The combat in DAO (tactical) vs the combat from DA2 (more actiony?) The mage and rogue types in DAO compared to the ones in DA2.

So whatever features DA3 has is going to have will be a deal breaker for someone. The point is can Bioware create a game that will satisfy enough of the gamers in the different groups. Time will tell.

But if Bioware makes a game specifically for me per my specifications I can guarantee a sale of at least one. 

There's also a pretty consistent dislike for the spawning waves of enemies. 

[wiskeylab]

no need to cater to all groups, DA:2 was created to appeal to first time rpg'ers and look how it turned out apparently the same happened with ME:3. bioware should cater to it's followers/fans they are the ones who will buy the games and if they are anything like me will buy all the dlc available for em.

[TheShadowWolf911]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I'm more concern they cater to a certain group who do not want to roleplay but wanting to direct interactive movie character with romance or maybe JRPG fans. A wrong kind of focus group.

as a JRPG fan but also a Western RPG fan, that was uncalled for

[SafetyShattered]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I'm more concern they cater to a certain group who do not want to roleplay but wanting to direct interactive movie character with romance or maybe JRPG fans. A wrong kind of focus group.

as a JRPG fan but also a Western RPG fan, that was uncalled for

This. That statement was completely unnecessary.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I feel sorry for all the BioWare employees that have to sift through all this junk in the forums just to compile a list of coherent ideas, suggestions, and demands.

[Monica83]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The general consensus from what I can gleam from the forums is that the re-used environments were a mistake. That is almost universal. Everything else is up to individual preference.
There are sub groups with in the group. Voice vs unvoiced (Once the genie is out of the bottle it is very tough to put it back in). The combat in DAO (tactical) vs the combat from DA2 (more actiony?) The mage and rogue types in DAO compared to the ones in DA2.

So whatever features DA3 has is going to have will be a deal breaker for someone. The point is can Bioware create a game that will satisfy enough of the gamers in the different groups. Time will tell.

But if Bioware makes a game specifically for me per my specifications I can guarantee a sale of at least one. 

No... and this is what bioware have to learn...

If you make a sequel you have a fanbase benhind that liked and loved the game and expect to the sequel to be similiar but polished and with new improved features...

When Da2 cames out maded angry many people most because cutted in all side...

DA2 had

*Stripped roleplay elements:Paraphrases,Static classes,Forced to be human,Actiony actitude,less hour of game.less variation on envirovment,a rushed story,non sense things like the mistery of leliana resurrection,no care for player decision in the pervious game i mean my warden ended the game in origins wander around with her beloved leliana..Now leliana is a sort of maker ninja that works for the curch "who played origins know that leliana have a huge different point of wiew about the curch" and this means the decision i maded in DAO was no more important and that was very deal breaker for me..

Da2 was a game extremely poor of content with the lengh added by nosense wawe combat and tryes in a disperate manner to look cool..


Origins was just total different...

Dialouge trees that allows you a better connection with the char..Better evirovment,class that can be crossed,race selection,origins for any class or race,a very clear story in a nice envirovment, more dark and gritty and less cartony..

THe mistake bioware did is release DA2 as part of dragon age franchise.. but the game changed so much that is hard to recognise it as a Dragon age game... If they wantet make a different kind of game why ruin a series? Just do a different ip so you don't joke people with false sequel.......

I seen thing writed by devs like: Well someone expected an dragon age origins 2.0

"Hey wake up....this is what a sequel is":lol: