267 réponses à ce sujet

[FINE HERE]

I think we should trust that Bioware is listening to our suggestions and trying to find a balance with everything we ask or mention. I believe they are not 'catering' to one group nor to every group. There are plenty of people here asking to romance Darkspawn, kill whoever whenever they want, and I remember seeing a 'bring Bethanie back and let us romance her!' thread too. They're not gonna listen to everyone, obviously. We can only speculate and hope they listen to us chirping on the forums. That's why I'm still posting my opinions.

[Meltemph]

FINE HERE wrote...

I think we should trust that Bioware is listening to our suggestions and trying to find a balance with everything we ask or mention. I believe they are not 'catering' to one group nor to every group. There are plenty of people here asking to romance Darkspawn, kill whoever whenever they want, and I remember seeing a 'bring Bethanie back and let us romance her!' thread too. They're not gonna listen to everyone, obviously. We can only speculate and hope they listen to us chirping on the forums. That's why I'm still posting my opinions.

Heh, call me a jerk or whatever, but I think the the only reason tehy should listen to our suggestions is because once in awhile they may read/find a very good idea.  But as a whole, hopefully we are nothing more then white noise, cause if the majority of the people on forums(not just BW games) made games, I wouldnt be playing video games.

Modifié par Meltemph, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Guilebrush]

Meltemph wrote...
Heh, call me a jerk or whatever, but I think the the only reason tehy should listen to our suggestions is because once in awhile they may read/find a very good idea.  But as a whole, hopefully we are nothing more then white noise, cause if the majority of the people on forums(not just BW games) made games, I wouldnt be playing video games.

Wiser words are rarely spoken on a video game forum. Let's face it the vast majority of "I have a great idea/suggestion!" threads are filled with terrible ideas. There's a reason why game developers are the developers and fans are the consumers and not vise versa.

Every once in a blue moon however the fan bases of games can arrive at a (near) consensus about certain things (see: Ending, Mass Effect 3. Reused maps, Dragon Age 2. Multiplayer, Torchlight) and in cases such as these developers should definitely stop treating it as noise and try to identify the core of the issue, not necessarily the reactoinary view though (which sadly seems to be mostly vitriol). Often these just cover the symptoms of the problems and not the core issues themselves.

Modifié par Guilebrush, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:02 .

[Grizzly46]

Guilebrush wrote...
Every once in a blue moon however the fan bases of games can arrive at a (near) consensus about certain things (see: Ending, Mass Effect 3. Reused maps, Dragon Age 2. Multiplayer, Torchlight) and in cases such as these developers should definitely stop treating it as noise and try to identify the core of the issue, not necessarily the reactoinary view though (which sadly seems to be mostly vitriol). Often these just cover the symptoms of the problems and not the core issues themselves.

Well, they did stop and listened in to the complains about the endings, giving us the EC.

That said, a lot of stuff surfacing on forums and in other media is indeed just white noie they neither could or should be bothered with - some might complain about a character included, the lack of romancing (sigh) of said character, the inventory, the game mechanics... About everything gets their share of those who side with it or think it sucks. That's just part of life doing something for others.

[Icinix]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Guilebrush wrote...
Every once in a blue moon however the fan bases of games can arrive at a (near) consensus about certain things (see: Ending, Mass Effect 3. Reused maps, Dragon Age 2. Multiplayer, Torchlight) and in cases such as these developers should definitely stop treating it as noise and try to identify the core of the issue, not necessarily the reactoinary view though (which sadly seems to be mostly vitriol). Often these just cover the symptoms of the problems and not the core issues themselves.

Well, they did stop and listened in to the complains about the endings, giving us the EC.

That said, a lot of stuff surfacing on forums and in other media is indeed just white noie they neither could or should be bothered with - some might complain about a character included, the lack of romancing (sigh) of said character, the inventory, the game mechanics... About everything gets their share of those who side with it or think it sucks. That's just part of life doing something for others.

They also removed the Mako and Elevators.


And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

Modifié par Icinix, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:17 .

[ElitePinecone]

marktcameron wrote...

I would rather you would cater to one group so it doesn't end up being like resident evil 6

I don't know how it's possible to generalise game development to the extent that one common design philosophy (itself already insanely vague) is enough to make one fearful about a game we know nothing about. 

Stating that there's any sort of causal link between 'wanting to appeal to more people' and 'sucking' is... really quite a stretch. There's about a billion other factors in there. 

[AlanC9]

Icinix wrote...
They also removed the Mako and Elevators.


And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

About both of them?

[TheJediSaint]

Bioware doesn't need to cater to a particular "audience". They just need to do what they know best and make a good game with a good story. Quality is the main way to appeal to a wider audience.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Icinix wrote...

They also removed the Mako and Elevators.


And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

Got to be said, the planet exploration is what made ME1 feel so epic and as if you were in space. Really took me back to my youth when I just wanted to follow in the footsteps of all the planet-hopping space-heroes we were raised on.

When I first played ME1 it really re-captured something of the essance which made Buck Rogers:Countdown to Doomsday so special.

As for catering to audiences it's a simple process really -

1) what game are we setting out to make?
2) what are the core elements about that style of game which it's fan base love?
3) what's our artistic vision of what we want to create?

.......then get as much of that together as the money-men will let you get away with.

Appealing to a wider audience should be left to the marketing bods IMO. They should be left to entice people into playing a good RPG, the developers shouldn't have to change the game to make the marketing/appeal aspect of it easier. Yes certain elements have to be considered when creating the game, but they should never neglect the core vision or audience.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Icinix]

AlanC9 wrote...

Icinix wrote...
They also removed the Mako and Elevators.


And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

About both of them?

Yes - and overheating weapons.

They were three elements of the game that I enjoyed and thought cut it from a different cloth.

Anyway - I may be bitter, but its ancient history now. One day I may be able to let go....one day...

[SpunkyMonkey]

Icinix wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Icinix wrote...
They also removed the Mako and Elevators.


And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

About both of them?

Yes - and overheating weapons.

They were three elements of the game that I enjoyed and thought cut it from a different cloth.

Anyway - I may be bitter, but its ancient history now. One day I may be able to let go....one day...

I'm from that same cloth then, coz all 3 things seemed good in ME1.

The overheating weapons one is a particular bug-bare of mine - for 20 or so years we've played games with unlimited ammo and having to worry about it is nothing more than an absolute chore. Just look at Bioshock - you spend so much time searching for ammo, then despensing it all in 2 seconds, again, and again, and again that it just drags the game down.

I'm only guessing, but it does seem as if the reload mechanic was introduce purely to appeal to COD meat-heads. Thankfully it didn't effect the game to much, but ME1 made such a MASSIVE breakthrough by giving us unlimited ammo and the overheating mechanic, that throwing that away in ME2 just made me despair.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:59 .

[Wulfram]

Good games cater to broader audiences by virtue of them being good. If a game gets great reviews and word of mouth, I'm more likely to buy it even if it's out of my preferred genres.

[Grizzly46]

Icinix wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Guilebrush wrote...
Every once in a blue moon however the fan bases of games can arrive at a (near) consensus about certain things (see: Ending, Mass Effect 3. Reused maps, Dragon Age 2. Multiplayer, Torchlight) and in cases such as these developers should definitely stop treating it as noise and try to identify the core of the issue, not necessarily the reactoinary view though (which sadly seems to be mostly vitriol). Often these just cover the symptoms of the problems and not the core issues themselves.

Well, they did stop and listened in to the complains about the endings, giving us the EC.

That said, a lot of stuff surfacing on forums and in other media is indeed just white noie they neither could or should be bothered with - some might complain about a character included, the lack of romancing (sigh) of said character, the inventory, the game mechanics... About everything gets their share of those who side with it or think it sucks. That's just part of life doing something for others.

They also removed the Mako and Elevators.


And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

Being bitter about the mako makes sense, but the elevators?

Actually, regarding the mako, it wasn't so much the vehicle that people complained about, but that the mako missions sucked - to which they reacted by removing the vehicle that many people actually liked. Tossing out the child with the bath water comes to mind...

[Teddiliza]

marktcameron wrote...

DAO 3.79 million DA2 1.45 million

Amen.  This is a business of fun.  I am sure we will all be marketed in the near future, but I think that the Bioware forums is a great way to get feedback from fans to get an idea of what people want, and hopefully there are actual Bioware employees paying attention.  It would be good for them to analyze the audience that purchased DAO and find out what made DAO the success it was (which I am sure they've already done), then use that knowledge to drive and shape Inquisition without making it too alike.  I am sure the first impressions of this game are what is going to be really important.  DA II had some pretty big shoes to fill, and I think Inquisition will probaby do better just because it is not coming out right after DAO.  (aka the sequel is rarely as good as the original).

[Teddiliza]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Bioware doesn't need to cater to a particular "audience". They just need to do what they know best and make a good game with a good story. Quality is the main way to appeal to a wider audience.

I agree

[General User]

Origins had alot in it that I reallly liked. Plus it had alot of content in it that I didn't particularly care for, but I'm sure others did.

While the truism that "if you try to please everyone, you will end up pleasing no one" is still, umm... true.  It's also true broad appeal and specific appeal are not incompatible.

Modifié par General User, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:57 .

[Shevy]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Bioware doesn't need to cater to a particular "audience". They just need to do what they know best and make a good game with a good story. Quality is the main way to appeal to a wider audience.

This!
It's Rockstar's formula for their open world games as well and they succeed with every title. They know they're experts in crafting amazing worlds with great characters and a lot content to have fun outside the main story and only do some minor refinements. ( I can't even tell you how much I want to play GTA V)
Doing the total opposite of this is why you get an abomination like Resi 6. It's terrible to see such a series die in such way.

[Cutlass Jack]

No one mentioned there would be catering to everyone. I'll have the kosher meal. Thanks.

[In Exile]

marktcameron wrote...

DAO 3.79 million DA2 1.45 million

Hmmm... COD = 4.2 million units for the Xbox 360 in November 2009 alone ... that obviously means all Bioware games have to be first person shooters! Your argument has convinced me.      

[In Exile]

Meltemph wrote...

BG2 even though it had mass appeal for its time, was never something other then a bunch of people trying to make a great game, less politics and ect(the nature of the industry has obviously changed).  This isnt to say that you guys dont do this now, but I doubt there was near as much "focus testing" and ect.

Dude... they picked D&D as their ruleset. That's the commercial PnP. While it's true that gaming wasn't as mainstream circa BG2 as it is today, Bioware by no means picked a niche slot or tried to be a niche within the market slot they picked. 

[TsaiMeLemoni]

marktcameron wrote...

DAO 3.79 million DA2 1.45 million

I love it when people throw numbers around without trying to offer any explanation. I know the general consensus around here is that DA2 sucks, but has anyone considered that part of the decline in sales is due to DA:O? Even among fans there are parts of the game that people either hate or find intensely boring, and these are rather lengthy portions of the game.

This game also came out after Mass Effect, so for some (me, for example) who are casual gamerswho purchased DA:O after experiencing ME1 and expected some overlap such as a voiced PC and were disappointed with a silent one. We also live in a world where less than half of the people who buy a game finish it.

All in all, there are definitely factors in DA:O that could definitely cause someone to not want to buy a follow-up, so to suggest that ALL the blame falls on DA2 is ridiculous.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:18 .

[MichaelStuart]

I'm of the opinion that you should cater to everyone.
Just find out what everyone wants and then give them it.
Simple, yes
easy, no

[Galactus_the_Devourer]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

BG2 even though it had mass appeal for it time was never something other then a bunch of people trying to make a great game, less politics and ect(the nature of the industry has obviously changed). This isnt to say that you guys dont do this now, but I doubt there was near as much "focus testing" and ect.

I don't know for certain what happened during BG2's development, so I can't really comment unfortunately.

I just used it as an example because it's typically considered the shining example and often apex of BioWare's gaming library, but when one person discusses it I find often there's an assumption regarding consensus over what makes it great. (I go into much more detail in the Project Eternity forum on the Off Topic board. Don't want to go too off topic but I did want to clarify why I used the example).

I think what made BG2 work, ultimately, was precisely that it had a wide range of "appeal spots" and did all of them at least OK-ish. The end result was a game that really was greater than the sum of it's parts.

Eg. It didn't had the world's best story or characters (that would be Planescape: Torment) or the world's most non-linear plot, or the world's best tactical gameplay, but it managed to bring enough stuff to make it enjoyable still. 

[Nomen Mendax]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

marktcameron wrote...

DAO 3.79 million DA2 1.45 million

I love it when people throw numbers around without trying to offer any explanation. I know the general consensus around here is that DA2 sucks, but has anyone considered that part of the decline in sales is due to DA:O? Even among fans there are parts of the game that people either hate or find intensely boring, and these are rather lengthy portions of the game.

This game also came out after Mass Effect, so for some (me, for example) who are casual gamerswho purchased DA:O after experiencing ME1 and expected some overlap such as a voiced PC and were disappointed with a silent one. We also live in a world where less than half of the people who buy a game finish it.

All in all, there are definitely factors in DA:O that could definitely cause someone to not want to buy a follow-up, so to suggest that ALL the blame falls on DA2 is ridiculous.

I'm sure there were people who bought DAO and didn't like it so didn't buy DA2.  On the other hand, I really don't think your argument has much merit.  Looking at the sales figures DA2 was less popular than DAO, the natural assumption is that it was because of DA2 not DAO, and that most of the blame should lie with DA2.

Having said which I don't know why DA2 sold less than DAO, and nor does anyone else on BSN (probably including the developers.  There is also a natural tendency for people to blame the lower sales on whatever feature that person happens to like least.

Finally most of the people on these boards who claim to know why DA2 sold less probably bought it themselves so can't even claim personal experience for why their reason is right.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:51 .

[TMZuk]

Meltemph wrote...

BG2 even though it had mass appeal for its time, was never something other then a bunch of people trying to make a great game, less politics and ect(the nature of the industry has obviously changed).  This isnt to say that you guys dont do this now, but I doubt there was near as much "focus testing" and ect.

The industry as a whole feels very much different in these terms now.  While I think games have gotten better and mroe polished, the industry for the past few years has been suffereing from too much focus testing and milestones, imo. Like I already said, I hope you guys have been given enough room with your game to **** most of the crap that comes along with development nowadays and just make the best damn game you guys are able to.

TL;DR: screw the groups, including "all" of them.

This pretty much hits the head on the nail, IMO. Aside that I disagree that games has gotten better. I don't think DA:O was better than BG2. It was good, yes, and had a few areas were it superceded BG2, but as a whole, no! The only truly great CRPG I have played the past five or six years was Fallout: New Vegas. And that wasn't excactly polished.

But I agree very much when you argue that games today suffer from to much focus-testing. They feel unoriginal, contrived and, oh so politically correct . Which studio today would dream up a game like Dungeon Keeper? Or Carmageddon?

The hardware is so much better today, but all the major studios has become as gutless as Hollywood, terrified of venturing outside the well-trodden path. Resulting in forgettable, play-it-safe, uninspired games. Like DA2. Which failed anyway, because it was boring and lack-luster.

I am very curious to see how Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity comes out, and how the major developers will react, if these two games are succesful. Here's to hoping for more daring, less catering to stereo-types.