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You know by catering to all the groups you will fail.


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#76
Iosev

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Games blend genre features all the damn time, to varying levels of success.

For example:  Almost every major sports game out now has at least one RPG mode. They're wildly popular.

To assert that they never work together is patently ridiculous, especially considering there's no consensus on where a particular genre starts and another even begins.


I have to agree with this.  Several sports games that feature career modes are essentially RPG modes.  In NBA 2K, for instance, not only can you customize your appearance, class (position), statistics, and so on, but you also make dialogue choices during conferences.  It's one of the reasons why I love some of those games.

#77
hoorayforicecream

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I thought this was a few rather appropriate quotes from an interview with Rob Pardo, Blizzard's executive VP of game design that was published today.

At a higher level, most of the successful entertainment products - and I'm not just talking about games here - are successful because there's a vision for that entertainment product and a creative direction for it. I don't know if you can get that from a community. For us there can be a really big distraction element.

...

The community is really a mob; it's not like there's a singular voice. You can certainly get themes if the community is mostly against something or for something. Most of the time it's pretty split, and you have people on both sides of an issue. It's confusing to know how to pull that feedback out, and make a better product from it.



#78
fchopin

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spirosz wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I agree with op, Bioware should listen to no group and just make the game how they want.

If they need to listen to what to put in DA3 then they have failed before they start.


Do you really want those re-used maps?  They should listen to certain things, IMO. 



They have heard what people want and all the complains made on the game so they already know this, if they don't already know then they will never know.

#79
Meltemph

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In Exile wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

BG2 even though it had mass appeal for its time, was never something other then a bunch of people trying to make a great game, less politics and ect(the nature of the industry has obviously changed).  This isnt to say that you guys dont do this now, but I doubt there was near as much "focus testing" and ect.


Dude... they picked D&D as their ruleset. That's the commercial PnP. While it's true that gaming wasn't as mainstream circa BG2 as it is today, Bioware by no means picked a niche slot or tried to be a niche within the market slot they picked. 




You are creating an aruement that isnt there. That wasnt what I was arguing and I agree with it... I just dont think they used it because it was mainstream.  They used it because they wanted to use it.

#80
aridor1570

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I agree with all of you, good men!

#81
Sylvius the Mad

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't know for certain what happened during BG2's development, so I can't really comment unfortunately.

I just used it as an example because it's typically considered the shining example and often apex of BioWare's gaming library, but when one person discusses it I find often there's an assumption regarding consensus over what makes it great. (I go into much more detail in the Project Eternity forum on the Off Topic board. Don't want to go too off topic but I did want to clarify why I used the example).

Interestingly, even the guys making BG2 didn't all seem to know what exactly they were making (and not just because of its size - I recall a Greg Zeschuk quote from during BG2's late testing phases where he said "Do you realise how FREAKING HUGE this game is?").

David Gaider, who wrote much of BG2, didn't know that any party member could act as party spokesperson.  He wrote conversations assuming that the PC was always the one doing the talking, even though that wasn't true.  He seemed genuinely surprised when, in 2008, I pointed out how BG2 had actually worked.

So the dev team doesn't actually all need to be on the same page when designing a game.  The game can still be great (though I still think BG1 was superior).

#82
Sylvius the Mad

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AlanC9 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

They also removed the Mako and Elevators.

And yes, I am still incredibly bitter about that.

About both of them?

They were both great features.

#83
mousestalker

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If they cater to everyone, the game will not fail, it will merely be horribly expensive.

For example, if game sales are 2 million and Bioware caters to all the purchasers, the cost will be around $22 million. That's assuming the cost of a reasonably good catered chicken dinner would average, worldwide $11 per person, with a cheaper vegetarian option to be taken up by an estimated 5% of the gamers.

#84
hoorayforicecream

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mousestalker wrote...

If they cater to everyone, the game will not fail, it will merely be horribly expensive.

For example, if game sales are 2 million and Bioware caters to all the purchasers, the cost will be around $22 million. That's assuming the cost of a reasonably good catered chicken dinner would average, worldwide $11 per person, with a cheaper vegetarian option to be taken up by an estimated 5% of the gamers.


There are far too many vegetarians in my party for it to be realistic. My immersion is broken. It would be better to have one or two vegetarians, several omnivores, and one or two carnivores.

#85
Icinix

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

spirosz wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I agree with op, Bioware should listen to no group and just make the game how they want.

If they need to listen to what to put in DA3 then they have failed before they start.


Do you really want those re-used maps?  They should listen to certain things, IMO. 


Nobody wants re-used maps, least of all BioWare.


I think reused maps can work - but they really needed to have dramatic changes occur - both visually and gameplay wise.

It might have ended up being as much work as a whole new map, but it would have provided a bit of a unique experience - especially if those changes to the gameplay and visual nature were affected by previous choices made in those locations. E.g - you allow a pirate group to go and use the cave as a hide out - three years later you're in the same cave, pirates are gone but there is a secret passage with a loot stash and a backdoor behind the current violent cave dwellers allowing you to get in with minimal blood shed.
So in that way the game is also evolving to your playstyle while providing a different experence.

#86
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Nothing wrong trying to implement things for various fans, but most important rule.do not alienate the OG fans and newer ones who feel like the older ones.good to take input from the new ones and possible people buying into franchise.if you do so though, youd be nailing the coffin if you dont cater to yourself the devs to make the game you want, not what the base craves

#87
Sylvius the Mad

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Games blend genre features all the damn time, to varying levels of success.

For example:  Almost every major sports game out now has at least one RPG mode. They're wildly popular.

To assert that they never work together is patently ridiculous, especially considering there's no consensus on where a particular genre starts and another even begins.

But gameplay preferences persist.

I like roleplaying.  I'll happily play a sports game that has a roleplaying mode, because I like roleplaying.  But any game that lacks a roleplaying mode isn't any fun for me, so I don't want to play that game.

#88
mousestalker

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On a side note, if Bioware does decide to cater to the fans, that's an excellent reason not to have a wedding in game. You just mention the word 'wedding' and everyone doubles their prices automatically.

#89
fainmaca

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Sorry OP, have to slightly disagree.

Less about catering to all, more about abandoning your previous consumer base to pursue another one. Kind of like trailing off while talking to your girlfriend but staring at another chick. Big difference between that and talking to a group of your friends with your girlfriend included.

Game companies should feel free to try to draw in as many people as they want. I mean, they need to make money somehow, right? But they shouldn't just drop everything their current customers seek from their products. Sometimes, two different audiences will want things that are mutually exclusive. An example is that many on here before ME3 wanted and expected a fully interactive experience where we stayed in control of every facet of the narrative and story dominating over gameplay through a fleshed out single player experience. The crowd Bioware chose to pursue to widen their audience called for visceral gunplay over storytelling, non-interactive cinematic experiences and multiplayer. The two crowds don't really mesh, and the end product appeals to fewer in the end, relying upon past customer goodwill and interest to boost its own sales.

I, for one, only bought it because it was goddamn Mass Effect, not because any of the features marketed appealed to me. Rather, said features were almost enough for me to turn away from buying it, so much so that to my own amazement it wasn't a day one purchase like I had been saying for pretty much the past two years. It was only because I couldn't resist learning the outcome of my past experiences that I ended up getting it in due time.

In truth, I believe that without ME1 and 2, ME3 would have flopped pretty fast. To RPG players, its a messy experience with little player control . To the other side of its attempted market, the shooter crowd, its a weak combat simulator that relies too much on story and has no real meat to its MP to hold it up, with only a single MP mode and not much else going for it. But because we'd seen something great beforehand, and had been building up the hype ourselves for the past two years, drawing the interest of more than a few others.

In illustration, watch how well the Hobbit will do in the cinemas over the next couple of months. Doesn't matter about the quality of the film, lots of people are going to watch it. We could be looking at a decent challenger for top spot in movie opening weekends ever. We've experienced the universe before, be it through the books or the LotR films, and many are already foaming at the mouth to see it. What's more, in the years since the LotR films came out, more and more people have been watching, experiencing, building up the ecitement as they join the waiting masses. That's what ME3 had, albeit to a lesser extent. That's why opening sales aren't worth a damn.

Kinda slipped away from my original point there. I apologise. But the secondary point is just as valid!

TL:DR- ME3 didn't appeal to too many audiences, its just chose two that look for very different things, then handled the conflict between the two halves poorly. When it came to creative decisions, it chose the new market over the old one. Then things kinda blew up in Bioware's faces, and the downwards spiral has been pretty constant since.

#90
Dirty Whore

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In Exile wrote...


Dude... they picked D&D as their ruleset. That's the commercial PnP. While it's true that gaming wasn't as mainstream circa BG2 as it is today, Bioware by no means picked a niche slot or tried to be a niche within the market slot they picked. 



ironically the DnD style of gameplay turned me (and many others off) from the infinity engine games at first (I remeber I even took BG2 back to the store because it felt so tedius)...those of us who were able to look beyond the gameplay fell in love with the story being told, the setting and above all the characters. So much so in fact that i grew to love the DnD style of play and remember it fondly to this day.

IMO the DnD mechanics were a pretty big wall to scale for the casual or non rpg gamer...but if you did manage to scale it you emerged one of the hardcore. I spent years on the Infinity Engine games. Its what has me so excited about project eternity.

/oldf@g

BioWare came as close as you can get in modern times and under publisher control to recapturing that magic with DA:O...i want them to do it again. Forsake that action driven nonsense (DA2) and go back to your roots, you can't fail.

Modifié par Dirty Whore, 04 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .


#91
zombitologist

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 I agree, I think they tried too hard to appease all the fans with ME3. As much as I want them to choose my favorite storylines/characters I'd feel better if they just picked something and stuck with it. I'd prefer a well written story that emphasized the characters/events they thought were important than get throw away references that feel less anyways.

#92
Fishy

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just as an observation, I think a game like Baldur's Gate 2 appeals to a wide range of people, and I think we see some of it as some of the discussions between Project Eternity fans that disagree what it means to capture the spirit of the Infinity Engine games.


BG2 was awesome for me.. Because the game felt ...  Honest? Genuine? Authentic? Game today feel more and more  incorporated and ''packaged''.. Maybe it`s just in my head.. But that what I feel. I think the industry has changed and gamer don`t really know what to think because of the whole ''don`t say anything' policy.

It`s like being a painter and having a businessman behind your back yellng at  you what to draw
. - Don`t do that man .. Man that nose won`t sell .. Don`t forget to leave empty that area so you can draw it for a little more cash. Hmm Green ? Nah .. Paint it red.. oh and make sure her boobies are bigger.

I am not against corporation or anything like that .. But the greatest  work need to be done with a certain .. velocity....

#93
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#94
Maria Caliban

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Cute, but you might want to add some text to that post as image-only posts tend to be modded.

#95
Sylvius the Mad

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Suprez30 wrote...

BG2 was awesome for me.. Because the game felt ...  Honest? Genuine? Authentic? Game today feel more and more  incorporated and ''packaged''.

Whereas, I thought BG2 felt packaged because of how it hid content from us until it decided we were ready (rather than the open exploration available in BG).

#96
Realmzmaster

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The problem is that by catering to only one group a company can still fail. The point in developing any project is to spread the risk. If you cater to one group you have essentially placed all your eggs in one basket. That can be a recipe for disaster.
Planescape Torment (1999) in my humble opinion was one of the better games made with the Infinity Engine, but it sold miserably. PST along with BG2 rank in the top 100 games. PST was critically acclaimed, but a financial flop. PST was made by Black Isle Studios (Chris Avellone was lead designer who is working on Project Eternity from Obsidian).
The game was made with the BG crowd in mind used the same ruleset. The only difference was the setting. Planescape instead of Forgotten Realms. The writing for PST was as solid as BG.

Go one year forward and Black Isle makes Icewind Dale and it sells much better than PST but is still made with the same engine and ruleset., but Icewind Dale is back in the Forgotten Realms.

So it is just not catering to one group because in one group the game can still fail. In PST case the setting was part of the failure, the game did not appeal to the niche it was aimed at.

Times have also changed from 1999 to now. Western style RPGs are no longer played on just a PC. Genres are now blending into each other. Many gamers today did not grow up with D & D or any of the p n p systems and could care less about them.

I have been playing crpgs and rpgs for more than 30 years. What I want in a crpg may not appeal to those who do not have my background. Some of the other posters on this forum have similar backgrounds but many do not. Is Bioware suppose to ignore other groups to cater only to my group which could be quite limited in number?

I also find it interesting when people ignore when a game is released. DAO was released around Christmas. Many of my relatives know I play crpgs. Want to know how many of them called my wife to ask if I had DAO? (Most of them). DA2 was released in March. Guess how many relatives called my wife? (none of them). Why? because it was not gift giving time. When a game is released is important.
Just showing numbers and not giving the analysis behind it is misleading. Just the same as saying DAO was more profitable than DA2 or vice versa, because we do not know.

I can gather from some of developers statements on the forum that DA2 made money and that the DLC made money. If we are to believe people like David, John, Allan and others..

The point of any business is to expand the audience. The bigger the audience the more chance at profit and the risk inherent is reduced.

If it fails it fails, but if you do not even try something different you may never succeed. Some of the people on this forum forget that DAO was an experiment and the ruleset used quite different from BG. DAO succeed on many fronts. Bioware tried another experiment with DA2. Some people saw the experiment as a failure others did not.

Everything typed here is my opinion. YMMV.

#97
Sacred_Fantasy

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Want to appeal to mass audience?

It's simple.

Make complex tactical game ala Jagged Aliens/UFO Enemy Unknown/Total War + complex strategy games ala Heart of Iron series + detail simulation ala The Sims/The Guilds + First Person experience ala any First Person Shooter/TES with the option to toggle to third person's mode ala all BioWare's game + Mini series puzzles games ala Yahoo based games + complex logical games ala Grand Master Chess + Dating Simulation ala hmm... I don't know... Japanese hentai maybe?

So can BioWare do this to appeal mass audience?

Nah... I seriously doubt it even if they have the infinite resources and technology. They're too focus on railroading players and linear story to appeal mass audiences.

#98
Allan Schumacher

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The passive aggressiveness isn't necessary.

If you feel our games are nothing more than railroading with a linear story and you're convinced that that is what we're intent on focusing on, I'm not getting the impression that you're actually that interested in having any sort of discussion but rather have a bone to pick.

#99
Seth_Holloway

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

The passive aggressiveness isn't necessary.

If you feel our games are nothing more than railroading with a linear story and you're convinced that that is what we're intent on focusing on, I'm not getting the impression that you're actually that interested in having any sort of discussion but rather have a bone to pick.




I've always wondered about that, If people really dislike the games why all the repeat interest? I mean... Im not a fan of Skyrim, (assuming they have a forum?) but Im not crusing around on Bethesda sites complaining about it. 


Weird


I kinda agree with the topic though, you cant please everyone... but I think Bioware does a pretty good job of finding the middle ground.

As long as there is a high level of player agency, awesome characters to explore the world with and a little romance doesn't hurt, I'll be around for years to come!!

:D

 

#100
eroeru

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Seth_Holloway wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The passive aggressiveness isn't necessary.

If you feel our games are nothing more than railroading with a linear story and you're convinced that that is what we're intent on focusing on, I'm not getting the impression that you're actually that interested in having any sort of discussion but rather have a bone to pick.




I've always wondered about that, If people really dislike the games why all the repeat interest?


Because they LOVED the previous games, and revere them as a legacy of sorts, as a progenitor to a successful reputation.
Moreso that the reputable part includes an original to the contested sequel.

Modifié par eroeru, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:52 .