343 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Podge 90 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Podge 90 wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Punisher cork wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

shepard wins conventionally all the time. its kindof separds thing. at what point did conventional victory become unacceptable to you?

Thats a great point. Funny and true. 

The  only time Shepard win conventionally is when he is not fighting reapers...Every reaper he killed was in an  unconventional way

Really?

Sovereign - hell fire of munitions + distraction when Saren got killed
Reaper on Rannoch - hell fire of munitions +landed, which means its shields were lower to compensate its own weight
Reaper on Earth - Two Thanix missiles +landed, which means its shields were lower to compensate its own weight

Yep, totally unconvential.

fixed

guns kill Reapers.  Sounds conventional to me.

The unconventional part is the fact that guns alone did not kill reapers. We had to do alot of extra and extreme thing first to even start to harm it with guns.

But.....we killed the Reaper with weapons, correct?

So? The majority of all conentional victories us weapons. Understand conventional means standard....What was standard about any of the ways we killed reapers?

Do we regulary stun ships so they are open to attack?
Do we shoot down their gun chanber to kill ships?
Do we wait till it in super close range as it fires on us and have hordes of shoocktroops attack us while it fire at us to shoot down it's gun chanber to kill ?

Those are a hell of unconvention fight ended in unconvetional ways.

Conventional would be killing it with dircet fire only....That did not happen.

[plfranke]

Dreman you support a better priority Earth? I thought you were a Bioware White Knight?

[Podge 90]

dreman9999 wrote...
Conventional would be killing it with dircet fire only....That did not happen.

But....direct fire killed Reapers, correct?

The only way Reapers are killed througout the series is with direct fire.  You are being stubborn for the sake of it, I think.

The only unconventional means of taking out Reapers is Leviathan's "mind" control (lol) and the Crucible.  Everything else comes down to either knocking out shields or exploiting weak spots.  What's unconventioanl about that?

[Cainne Chapel]

Lucas, you usually have some good points my friend

But I disagree with you here, the Reapers were ALWAYS strong. Sure Sovy had a geth fleet to back him up, but he was still damn near invincible all by his lonesome... I mean he barrelled through Turian ships like a giant space battering ram which did NOTHING to stop or slow him down, then he was taking fire from a fleet of ships and it did nothing to him UNTIL his shields were down.

We won basically through plot magic. Now the reapers are NOT invincible, but they are substantially more powerful individually than ANYTHING we can field, they need no supplies (or crew) and have what amounts to vast unlimited firepower.

Sure we have thanix which helps, but even then thats derived from THEIR more superior tech and not EVERY ship has access to the latest and greatest. Then factor in their individual strength is enough for 4 or 5 of our heaviest class of ships (of which the whole galaxy has what? 50 of?) they can target multiple ships at once with weapons that essentially one shot them, they have more range, speed, sustainability than anything we have...

The picture gets rather bleak rather quickly.

Sure we can take some out, hell probably a substantial number, but in an all out head on fight, I would imagine, even just using sovy as a basis, we'd come out behind as we dont have unlimited fleets to throw at these things.

Then you factor in their ground forces, non capital class destroyers, oculuses, Oi. They were just more powerful from the start.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Plus at the end while shep is listening to starbrat's line of crap you hear hackett telling everyone to retreat because they're boned.

The fleet lost right there. The Reapers just took the combined might of the entire galaxy and turned it back. If it wasn't for the cruicible, the Reapers won the war at that point.

Modifié par jkflipflopDAO, 04 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Almostfaceman]

dreman9999 wrote...
So? The majority of all conentional victories us weapons. Understand conventional means standard....What was standard about any of the ways we killed reapers?

Do we regulary stun ships so they are open to attack?
Do we shoot down their gun chanber to kill ships?
Do we wait till it in super close range as it fires on us and have hordes of shoocktroops attack us while it fire at us to shoot down it's gun chanber to kill ?

Those are a hell of unconvention fight ended in unconvetional ways.

Conventional would be killing it with dircet fire only....That did not happen.

So, when a tank fires at a weak spot on an enemy tank, or shoots at it while it's in a vulnerable position or state (say, the crew is out taking a ******) - these aren't conventional methods because they exploit enemy weaknesses?

All your examples are conventional examples. 

An unconventional method would be a magic win button, like we have at the end of ME3. 

[CroGamer002]

The reason for sneak attack is for much easier way to delete all evidence of their existence.

Shutting down all Mass Relays with removing all inter-system communications is a great way for that.
Not only organics are far more disorganized against Reapers, but also unable to have a proper way to leave evidence for future species to prepare.

[rekn2]

i still dont get why they put cap ships on planet and just start shooting? if the purpose is to harvest why not just indoc everyone? shoot indoc probe thingy to planet, wait 1 month, profit...

1 sovereign did so much damage, too. it doesnt matter if there was only 295 reapers it couldve been 10 and they could kill everything

[glacier1701]

The main issue that the previous MEs have shown is that the Reapers are utterly lacking in tactical ideas. Soveriegn tried to fire up the Citadel and when that did not work could not come up with a better idea in nearly 2000 years other than to pervert some species into attacking the Citadel. (ME1). In ME2 this moronic behaviour is now compounded in that the Reapers already had a species they could use (the Collectors) and since NO-ONE knew any better they could have easily made it to the Citadel without ANY fight and pull off the same stunt that we got in ME1 at the end with the benefit that at that time (2000 years ago) there was no Destiny Ascension or Turians or Earth Fleet. ME3 adds insult to this moronic behaviour in that it ONLY takes the Reapers a couple of years to fly in conventionally - so same thing as above why not fly in conventionally when the first wake up signal failed - again the ONLY forces active were the Salarians and Asari - so much easier to win then.

As to the Reapers being tougher in ME3 - this has never been an issue. The Reapers were ALWAYS supposed to be tough. There is NOTHING in the any game that suggested otherwise.

[dreman9999]

Almostfaceman wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
So? The majority of all conentional victories us weapons. Understand conventional means standard....What was standard about any of the ways we killed reapers?

Do we regulary stun ships so they are open to attack?
Do we shoot down their gun chanber to kill ships?
Do we wait till it in super close range as it fires on us and have hordes of shoocktroops attack us while it fire at us to shoot down it's gun chanber to kill ?

Those are a hell of unconvention fight ended in unconvetional ways.

Conventional would be killing it with dircet fire only....That did not happen.

So, when a tank fires at a weak spot on an enemy tank, or shoots at it while it's in a vulnerable position or state (say, the crew is out taking a ******) - these aren't conventional methods because they exploit enemy weaknesses?

All your examples are conventional examples. 

An unconventional method would be a magic win button, like we have at the end of ME3. 

 How does it get to an angle of the vulnerable position and a shot of it weak point? That very act of getting that shot would be unconvetioanl means.

[LilyasAvalon]

In all honesty, I agree with you. The reapers never seemed as powerful as they did until ME3, and even then, they are proven to be beatable. What was the entire point of watching a giant WORM kill a reaper and pretty much killing another one ON FOOT, and creating alliances people NEVER thought possible, if only to have us rely on some baddly written dues ex machine at the end?

[dreman9999]

Podge 90 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Conventional would be killing it with dircet fire only....That did not happen.

But....direct fire killed Reapers, correct?

The only way Reapers are killed througout the series is with direct fire.  You are being stubborn for the sake of it, I think.

The only unconventional means of taking out Reapers is Leviathan's "mind" control (lol) and the Crucible.  Everything else comes down to either knocking out shields or exploiting weak spots.  What's unconventioanl about that?

Shooting down it fire chamber is not direct fire.
That an unconvetioal means.

[dreman9999]

plfranke wrote...

Dreman you support a better priority Earth? I thought you were a Bioware White Knight?

I support the ending not the mission to the ending. You don't think I have critiziums on the game. I never said it's perfect.

[dreman9999]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

In all honesty, I agree with you. The reapers never seemed as powerful as they did until ME3, and even then, they are proven to be beatable. What was the entire point of watching a giant WORM kill a reaper and pretty much killing another one ON FOOT, and creating alliances people NEVER thought possible, if only to have us rely on some baddly written dues ex machine at the end?

The first reaper you see takes on a fleet....How is that not powerful?

Added, those reapers you killed were destoryers...aka reaper jrs.

Modifié par dreman9999, 04 octobre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Punisher cork]

[/quote]

[/quote] 3. You do realize that the reaper overwhelmed the entire galexy. Earth has a high concentration of reaper but not every reaper in the galexy.
The galexy map is filled with reapers for a reason.

4.But thats the problem here. You keep bring up points the allied fleets stopped some reapers. Understand that they are fighting fleets of reapers. Some they can kill but just because you kill some convetionally , does not mean you can defeat the entire fleet convetionally.

5. How is an offensive weapon that need to be in close range of a reaper to be effective, when reaper are massivly destructive at far range, defence?

That's like saying a shot gun is defence ageints a sniper rifle.

6. You do understand that there not going to send all ther forces after you....And  asteroids are not that easy to turn.

If the reaper tty to go around the asteroids and you move, the most likely have forces waiting for you on the other side.

In space, staying on a limited space for cover where an enemy can attack you at any angle is not a good defence.

There's an obvious way to useasteroids in space wars that can help you but your way off. I'll let you guess.

[/quote]

You are not paying attention. I've been reading your other posts on this topic. Your defending bioware too much without doing any thinking. I've explained each of these using the codex at least 4 times. #6 is my brainchild and your still not understanding it. I'm not making a youtube video with sockpuppets to explain it to you. Your comprehension is terrible and its DEFENSE not defence. Defending as in protecting something, not defence as in tearing down a white picket fence. Your on your own. 

Modifié par Punisher cork, 04 octobre 2012 - 05:25 .

[Cainne Chapel]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

In all honesty, I agree with you. The reapers never seemed as powerful as they did until ME3, and even then, they are proven to be beatable. What was the entire point of watching a giant WORM kill a reaper and pretty much killing another one ON FOOT, and creating alliances people NEVER thought possible, if only to have us rely on some baddly written dues ex machine at the end?

Dreman is right, once again Sovy took near an entire fleet to take down and ONLY because his shields dropped thanks to PLOT.

The worm crushed a destroyer and was by all intents and purposes a once off super beast (We dont exactly hve kalros firing cannons on call for destroyers...)

Shep didn;t kill the reaper, it took all the fire from the Quarian fleet to kill the reaper (Case in point to their power, it wasn;t even a capital reaper, it was a destroyer reaper and we had to focus space borne cannon fire on its weakpoint, several times to take it down).

Only thing ME3 really does is ramp up their numbers which is all they really need to do to make them seem even MORE overwhelming.

Remember even one going through stealth attacks and using agents, pushed us to the limit in ME1,

[Maxster_]

Cainne Chapel wrote...


Shep didn;t kill the reaper, it took all the fire from the Quarian fleet to kill the reaper (Case in point to their power, it wasn;t even a capital reaper, it was a destroyer reaper and we had to focus space borne cannon fire on its weakpoint, several times to take it down).

Everyone who saying things like that is completely ignorant of ME lore.
Entire Quarian fleet valley would vaporize everything in 50 km diameter, and only if the are good at targeting.
Dreadnought main gun shot have kinetic energy eqivalent of 38 kilo tons of trotil.

Modifié par Maxster_, 04 octobre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Han Shot First]

LucasShark wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Did we play different games?

Because in the Mass Effect games I had played, the Reapers had destroyed every single space faring civilization that had ever existed in the Milky Way, and they had been doing it for billions of years. Among these destroyed civilizations were the Protheans, a race that the first game kept reminding you were more technologically advanced than the current civilizations. Sovereign, the first Reaper we meet, was seemingly invulnerable until Shepard managed to bring down its shields.

I'd say taking all of the above into account, their portrayal in ME3 was about what was expected. In fact after the release of ME1 there was many a discussion on the old boards about how in the hell Shepard was going to manage to defeat an entire fleet of Reapers, when a single Reaper caused so much trouble for the combined Citadel fleets.

Examine HOW they destroyed civilizations, not just that they did.

Does the how really matter?

They had an undefeated record that stretched back billions of years. Consider that there is no nation on Earth older than a few thousand years, and all of those nations have lost the occasional war. The Reapers have been around for billions, and have never lost.

YES, yes it does!

If someone claims "I am a great fighter", it does matter if they would qualify that with "so long as my opponent isn't facing me and I have a bat".

I assume you are comparing Reaper technological superiority to that baseball bat?

Wars aren't street brawls.

Also, there is no such thing as a fair fight in war. When the British fought the Zulus for example, they didn't decide to chuck their rifles and artillery because it wouldn't be sporting. If you have an advantage over your enemy, you hammer him with it.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Ok max, would it be better if I said, it took an orbital bombardment from several Fleet ships to destroy it instead?

You are right though enough ships to hold 17 million WOULD do a lot of damage, but dont forget the vast majority of their ships aren;t exactly new and up to snuff either, they just have a LOT.

and yes Dreadnaughts have a LOT of firepower..., but how many dreadnaughts do the fleets have? 50 at most? and It still takes concentrated fire from 4 of them to really break through a capital ships shields if I recall the codex?

Still doesnt really help us if all of our big ships have to focus one at time while being one shotted does it>

[Revthejedi]

Some of you do not have a firm grasp on what it means to be "conventional". In the context of ME3, conventional is any and everything not including a DEM. Furthermore, I never figured we could beat the Reapers through military might or tactics, but the way the crucible, catalyst and reapers are implemented is just ****** poor. Taken as a whole,the Reapers spend a majority of the series doing random stuff.

Modifié par Revthejedi, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:37 .

[CronoDragoon]

LucasShark wrote...

What nouanced responses I recieve:... /sarcasm.

You really shouldn't call other people stupid when you routinely mispell words. They aren't even typos. You just use words you aren't comfortable using, and it shows.

[Steve The Seal]

I'm not sure if they are portrayed weak, but you are indeed correct, when you say that their tactics suddenly change in ME3, from this:


To this:


Their tactic had always been (from the knowlegde of ME1 and ME2) to slowly chip away the galaxy's species. Slowly, but surely, to minimize loses, since they do not create that many reapers from each cycle. Hmm that exactly that not use that huge opportunity to make some interesting missions, instead of several blind dates with Cerberus.
Missions could be anything from stopping indoctrinated humans from shutting down systems, finding the infiltrator (detective), stop biological warfare (what they tried to do in ME2) and so on. So much pontential, but instead we got Godzilla rampaging in the background while we play hide n' seek with Cerberus... Oh lordy lord...

[dreman9999]

Steve The Seal wrote...

I'm not sure if they are portrayed weak, but you are indeed correct, when you say that their tactics suddenly change in ME3, from this:


To this:


Their tactic had always been (from the knowlegde of ME1 and ME2) to slowly chip away the galaxy's species. Slowly, but surely, to minimize loses, since they do not create that many reapers from each cycle. Hmm that exactly that not use that huge opportunity to make some interesting missions, instead of several blind dates with Cerberus.
Missions could be anything from stopping indoctrinated humans from shutting down systems, finding the infiltrator (detective), stop biological warfare (what they tried to do in ME2) and so on. So much pontential, but instead we got Godzilla rampaging in the background while we play hide n' seek with Cerberus... Oh lordy lord...

Their tactic change because there oldtactic stop working because of Shepard. From ME1 we well know the reaper can us force if they need to.

It was always going to end with massive reapers invading. You were told this by harbinger and Sovergin.

[Maxster_]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Ok max, would it be better if I said, it took an orbital bombardment from several Fleet ships to destroy it instead?

You are right though enough ships to hold 17 million WOULD do a lot of damage, but dont forget the vast majority of their ships aren;t exactly new and up to snuff either, they just have a LOT.

and yes Dreadnaughts have a LOT of firepower..., but how many dreadnaughts do the fleets have? 50 at most? and It still takes concentrated fire from 4 of them to really break through a capital ships shields if I recall the codex?

Still doesnt really help us if all of our big ships have to focus one at time while being one shotted does it>

I'm saying that Shepard is dead on Rannoch along with part of his crew. If you use that kind of excuse about "entire quarian fleet".
It is like 3-4 frigates or a cruiser using only secondary weapons. Because otherwise, Shepard is certainly and instantly annihilated.
And that's all.

[dreman9999]

Revthejedi wrote...

Some of you do not have a firm grasp on what it means to be "conventional". In the context of ME3, conventional is any and everything not including a DEM. Furthermore, I never figured we could beat the Reapers through military might or tactics, but the way the crucible, catalyst and reapers are implemented is just ****** poor. Taken as a whole,the Reapers spend a majority of the series doing random stuff.

The reaper spent the series trying to fight indirctly because they did not want to kill many organics. Shepard stopped all ther plans. So they had to fight directly.

Add, there is nothing in ME that can stop the reaper is a stright of indirect fight.

How the reaper are persented through out ME3 is exactly what Sovergin told you they would be form ME1.