343 réponses à ce sujet

[Gruntburner]

grey_wind wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Darn, I could have sworn I saw hundreds of reaper ships that looked like Sovereign appear in dark space at the end of ME2. But that can't be true, because if it were that would mean that there would be an entire fleet of ships that could essentially tear through most fleets single handed.

I know, right?
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

At that point in time, only one Reaper had been seen in combat with another fleet... and it absolutely decimated everything in its path.  Not to mention that Sovereign was only destroyed after Shepard killed the Saren avatar, causing its shields to fall.

[Eterna]

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:19 .

[LucasShark]

Gruntburner wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Darn, I could have sworn I saw hundreds of reaper ships that looked like Sovereign appear in dark space at the end of ME2. But that can't be true, because if it were that would mean that there would be an entire fleet of ships that could essentially tear through most fleets single handed.

I know, right?
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

At that point in time, only one Reaper had been seen in combat with another fleet... and it absolutely decimated everything in its path.  Not to mention that Sovereign was only destroyed after Shepard killed the Saren avatar, causing its shields to fall.

Except the battle WASN'T WITH SOVREIGN!  Sovreign bypassed the majority of the conflict and let the zealot Geth throw themselves at the Citadel fleet.

[LucasShark]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

[Eterna]

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

And? It would still take a hugely overhwlming force to destroy and conquer every planet in the galaxy. 

[Eterna]

grey_wind wrote...

I know, right? 
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

Simple math would have their numbers far beyond that. 

[LucasShark]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

And? It would still take a hugely overhwlming force to destroy and conquer every planet in the galaxy. 

Taking one system at a time across centuries of work?  Not so much.  All you'd need would be forces to decimate a relatively small force that happened to get caught in that system or was stationed there anyway.

[LucasShark]

Eterna5 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I know, right? 
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

Simple math would have their numbers far beyond that. 

If it is so simple: explain it?  Wait: you can't.

That is an assertion that that screenshot continues on in all directions and into depth, which it COULD, and probably does, but that's not a gaurenteed "mathematical" representation of power by any stretch of the imagination.

[Village_Idiot]

Admittedly Sovereign wasn't potent enough to take on the Citadel defence fleet. What it did do however is keep the ENTIRE Arcturus fleet at bay, and destroy a load of cruisers whilst it was at it. That's the primary human fleet breaking a sweat just to destroy one Sovereign class Reaper, and they number in at least the hundreds. This is not sustainable warfare.

How much of a contribution the death of Saren made to Sovereign's demise is difficult to say, but what is obvious is that the Reapers are heavily dependent on their shielding. Once that is dealt with, they're much more vulnerable.

[Eterna]

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

And? It would still take a hugely overhwlming force to destroy and conquer every planet in the galaxy. 

Taking one system at a time across centuries of work?  Not so much.  All you'd need would be forces to decimate a relatively small force that happened to get caught in that system or was stationed there anyway.

The reapers need to attack the whole Galaxy at once to stop reinforcements from coming to the aid of the planets and colonies that are under seige. 

[Maxster_]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

And? It would still take a hugely overhwlming force to destroy and conquer every planet in the galaxy. 

Except that logistic completely broken, and fleets stands where they were when relay network was turned off. That means that military left without supplies, isolated packets, that pose no threat. And conquring planet with no space support is very easy.

Modifié par Maxster_, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:28 .

[shodiswe]

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Some of the 'reasons' really amount to pretty much nothing. For example, a ground-based cannon took out a Reaper. Great. What you don't seem to think is important is that that cannon might well be big enough and powerful enough that it makes the guns of the allied fleets look like muskets in comparison.

Only it had to be built in the same time-frame we had, and we already have a paralel: the Hanar have ground-based weapons capable of preventing their own planets fall.

Taking out one reaper ship isn't the same as taking out thousands, thats why the race that built it is long dead.
Building that gun instead of the crucible might have destroyed one or a couple of reaper dreadnaught but then a single hit from a reaper would have destroyed it then after that everyone in the galaxy would be dead, just like in the refusal ending. It's happend before, it will happen again.
Or are you so keen on repeating the misstakes of the past?

[LucasShark]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Admittedly Sovereign wasn't potent enough to take on the Citadel defence fleet. What it did do however is keep the ENTIRE Arcturus fleet at bay, and destroy a load of cruisers whilst it was at it. That's the primary human fleet breaking a sweat just to destroy one Sovereign class Reaper, and they number in at least the hundreds. This is not sustainable warfare.

How much of a contribution the death of Saren made to Sovereign's demise is difficult to say, but what is obvious is that the Reapers are heavily dependent on their shielding. Once that is dealt with, they're much more vulnerable.

6 Cruisers, which are the infantry troops of space combat.

[LucasShark]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

And? It would still take a hugely overhwlming force to destroy and conquer every planet in the galaxy. 

Taking one system at a time across centuries of work?  Not so much.  All you'd need would be forces to decimate a relatively small force that happened to get caught in that system or was stationed there anyway.

The reapers need to attack the whole Galaxy at once to stop reinforcements from coming to the aid of the planets and colonies that are under seige. 

No, they don't: they never have before, ever.  They shut down the relay network, and stop ANY forces from moving anywhere.

[LucasShark]

shodiswe wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Some of the 'reasons' really amount to pretty much nothing. For example, a ground-based cannon took out a Reaper. Great. What you don't seem to think is important is that that cannon might well be big enough and powerful enough that it makes the guns of the allied fleets look like muskets in comparison.

Only it had to be built in the same time-frame we had, and we already have a paralel: the Hanar have ground-based weapons capable of preventing their own planets fall.

Taking out one reaper ship isn't the same as taking out thousands, thats why the race that built it is long dead.
Building that gun instead of the crucible might have destroyed one or a couple of reaper dreadnaught but then a single hit from a reaper would have destroyed it then after that everyone in the galaxy would be dead, just like in the refusal ending. It's happend before, it will happen again.
Or are you so keen on repeating the misstakes of the past?

Except the Hanar successfully defeat the attack on their world, seems pretty effective.

[Maxster_]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


Then explain this culling lasting all of a few weeks before "everyone is dying!" being declaired, while the Prothean cycle took centuries, and that is WITH the reapers having full control of the Relay network from day 1 and ideal conditions?

This is explained in game by both Javik and Liara. It took the Reapers so long to kill the Protheans because all sentient life was part of their empire and society. Every race in the cycle was was united. Their unity is the reason it took the Reapers so long to destroy them. 

Liara is terrified because she's so young and says she could live to see the whole cycle perish. Implying it would also take the Reapers a long time to wipe out the current cycle. 

Irrevelant:  The Reapers' entire core strategy revolved arround breaking the Empire's command structure and dividing it into isolated systems to be handled one at a time.

And? It would still take a hugely overhwlming force to destroy and conquer every planet in the galaxy. 

Taking one system at a time across centuries of work?  Not so much.  All you'd need would be forces to decimate a relatively small force that happened to get caught in that system or was stationed there anyway.

The reapers need to attack the whole Galaxy at once to stop reinforcements from coming to the aid of the planets and colonies that are under seige. 

*facepalm*
Yeah sure, those reinforcements still would be actual in 20-40 years.

Modifié par Maxster_, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:34 .

[Eterna]

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I know, right? 
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

Simple math would have their numbers far beyond that. 

If it is so simple: explain it?  Wait: you can't.

That is an assertion that that screenshot continues on in all directions and into depth, which it COULD, and probably does, but that's not a gaurenteed "mathematical" representation of power by any stretch of the imagination.

No you can quite literally use math. The Leviathan created the catalyst I believe 1 billion years ago? Each hrvest lasts around a century . In each Cycle a capital ship is made. 

If you can figure out hw many cycles there have been in 1 billion years you can find out how many capital ships have been made. It's far more than 295. 

[grey_wind]

Gruntburner wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Darn, I could have sworn I saw hundreds of reaper ships that looked like Sovereign appear in dark space at the end of ME2. But that can't be true, because if it were that would mean that there would be an entire fleet of ships that could essentially tear through most fleets single handed.

I know, right?
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

At that point in time, only one Reaper had been seen in combat with another fleet... and it absolutely decimated everything in its path.  Not to mention that Sovereign was only destroyed after Shepard killed the Saren avatar, causing its shields to fall.

No, it hadn't. It was the Heretic Geth fleet that inflicted the majority of the casualties on the Citadel Defense Fleet and Hackett's 5th Fleet. Sovvy ran before he could actually destroy anything significant in the first part of the battle so he could hide in the Citadel, then was decimated once the arms opened.
And the fact that Sovereign's shields went down because Shep killed its avatar was ambiguous. Most fans assumed that's what happened, but others also speculated that it was simply coincidence that Shep destroyed the avatar around the same time that Sovvy's shields fell, or the avatar failed because Sovvy himself had taken so much damage. Until ME3, it could have gone either way, but the writers chose to pick the option that made Sovvy near invincible and turned that into canon.

[Village_Idiot]

LucasShark wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Admittedly Sovereign wasn't potent enough to take on the Citadel defence fleet. What it did do however is keep the ENTIRE Arcturus fleet at bay, and destroy a load of cruisers whilst it was at it. That's the primary human fleet breaking a sweat just to destroy one Sovereign class Reaper, and they number in at least the hundreds. This is not sustainable warfare.

How much of a contribution the death of Saren made to Sovereign's demise is difficult to say, but what is obvious is that the Reapers are heavily dependent on their shielding. Once that is dealt with, they're much more vulnerable.

6 Cruisers, which are the infantry troops of space combat.

That doesn't make them easily replaceable. A single heavy cruiser is comparable in expense to that of the Normandy SR1.  

In any case, if it costs a fully fledged fleet 6 cruisers just to nail one Reaper, that bodes poorly for any action against Reapers with smaller scale fleets, or against larger Reaper forces.

[LucasShark]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I know, right? 
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

Simple math would have their numbers far beyond that. 

If it is so simple: explain it?  Wait: you can't.

That is an assertion that that screenshot continues on in all directions and into depth, which it COULD, and probably does, but that's not a gaurenteed "mathematical" representation of power by any stretch of the imagination.

No you can quite literally use math. The Leviathan created the catalyst I believe 1 billion years ago? Each hrvest lasts around a century . In each Cycle a capital ship is made. 

If you can figure out hw many cycles there have been in 1 billion years you can find out how many capital ships have been made. It's far more than 295. 

Assuming they even have a leg to stand on to start with: arround 19,600

That is still an assumption, but slightly more valid than "they have a lot".

And that is irrevelant anyway: as it is into ME3's "roided up reapers" period.

[mumba]

Didn't we just have this discussion?

[LucasShark]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Admittedly Sovereign wasn't potent enough to take on the Citadel defence fleet. What it did do however is keep the ENTIRE Arcturus fleet at bay, and destroy a load of cruisers whilst it was at it. That's the primary human fleet breaking a sweat just to destroy one Sovereign class Reaper, and they number in at least the hundreds. This is not sustainable warfare.

How much of a contribution the death of Saren made to Sovereign's demise is difficult to say, but what is obvious is that the Reapers are heavily dependent on their shielding. Once that is dealt with, they're much more vulnerable.

6 Cruisers, which are the infantry troops of space combat.

That doesn't make them easily replaceable. A single heavy cruiser is comparable in expense to that of the Normandy SR1.  

In any case, if it costs a fully fledged fleet 6 cruisers just to nail one Reaper, that bodes poorly for any action against Reapers with smaller scale fleets, or against larger Reaper forces.

1 Reaper: plus several dozen Geth cruisers.

[LucasShark]

Mumba1511 wrote...

Didn't we just have this discussion?

If you feel that way, don't read it and it will be gone in a day or so.

[mumba]

This thread made me laugh is all.

[shodiswe]

LucasShark wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Some of the 'reasons' really amount to pretty much nothing. For example, a ground-based cannon took out a Reaper. Great. What you don't seem to think is important is that that cannon might well be big enough and powerful enough that it makes the guns of the allied fleets look like muskets in comparison.

Only it had to be built in the same time-frame we had, and we already have a paralel: the Hanar have ground-based weapons capable of preventing their own planets fall.

Taking out one reaper ship isn't the same as taking out thousands, thats why the race that built it is long dead.
Building that gun instead of the crucible might have destroyed one or a couple of reaper dreadnaught but then a single hit from a reaper would have destroyed it then after that everyone in the galaxy would be dead, just like in the refusal ending. It's happend before, it will happen again.
Or are you so keen on repeating the misstakes of the past?

Except the Hanar successfully defeat the attack on their world, seems pretty effective.

Only for two reasons, they surprised the Reapers who thought the defence guns were offline.
And number two, the Hanar are religious Zealots who has spent centuries or longer fortifying their sacred protean relics by building Big Giant guns! The galaxy hasn't got this kind of tiem to build as massive planetary defences as the crazy Hanar.
That's also why they barely had a fleet to send, everything went into those guns!

Hanar defence comitty chairman: This one think we should change out homeworld defence spendings from 99.99% on homeworld defence guns and 0.01% on fleet maintenance, to 100% on our big giant guns! It's our sacred duty to protect the enkindler ruins on Khaje.

"a roaring flapping of tentacles commences"

Hanar defece comitty Secretary: Motion passed.