343 réponses à ce sujet

[LucasShark]

shodiswe wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Some of the 'reasons' really amount to pretty much nothing. For example, a ground-based cannon took out a Reaper. Great. What you don't seem to think is important is that that cannon might well be big enough and powerful enough that it makes the guns of the allied fleets look like muskets in comparison.

Only it had to be built in the same time-frame we had, and we already have a paralel: the Hanar have ground-based weapons capable of preventing their own planets fall.

Taking out one reaper ship isn't the same as taking out thousands, thats why the race that built it is long dead.
Building that gun instead of the crucible might have destroyed one or a couple of reaper dreadnaught but then a single hit from a reaper would have destroyed it then after that everyone in the galaxy would be dead, just like in the refusal ending. It's happend before, it will happen again.
Or are you so keen on repeating the misstakes of the past?

Except the Hanar successfully defeat the attack on their world, seems pretty effective.

Only for two reasons, they surprised the Reapers who thought the defence guns were offline.
And number two, the Hanar are religious Zealots who has spent centuries or longer fortifying their sacred protean relics by building Big Giant guns! The galaxy hasn't got this kind of tiem to build as massive planetary defences as the crazy Hanar.
That's also why they barely had a fleet to send, everything went into those guns!

Hanar defence comitty chairman: This one think we should change out homeworld defence spendings from 99.99% on homeworld defence guns and 0.01% on fleet maintenance, to 100% on our big giant guns! It's our sacred duty to protect the enkindler ruins on Khaje.

"a roaring flapping of tentacles commences"

Hanar defece comitty Secretary: Motion passed.

Yeah: and they're a minor player in Galactic politics: MASS PRODUCTION.

Also: source on this supposed extremist focus on planetary defense.

Modifié par LucasShark, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Argolas]

Err... just the opposite? A reaper capital ship can be destroyed by four dreadnoughts. Souvereign could stand the fire of the whole 5th fleet until its shields were overloaded.

[Eterna]

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I know, right? 
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

Simple math would have their numbers far beyond that. 

If it is so simple: explain it?  Wait: you can't.

That is an assertion that that screenshot continues on in all directions and into depth, which it COULD, and probably does, but that's not a gaurenteed "mathematical" representation of power by any stretch of the imagination.

No you can quite literally use math. The Leviathan created the catalyst I believe 1 billion years ago? Each hrvest lasts around a century . In each Cycle a capital ship is made. 

If you can figure out hw many cycles there have been in 1 billion years you can find out how many capital ships have been made. It's far more than 295. 

Assuming they even have a leg to stand on to start with: arround 19,600

That is still an assumption, but slightly more valid than "they have a lot".

And that is irrevelant anyway: as it is into ME3's "roided up reapers" period.

But it really isn't though because from the very start we knew they had terrorized the galaxy for a very long time. Their numbers have nothing to do with ME3.

And keeping in mind, only one race per cycle is chosen to be a capital ship. The others are turned into Destroyers. There are  a lot of damn Reapers. They could win through numbers alone. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Village_Idiot]

LucasShark wrote...

1 Reaper: plus several dozen Geth cruisers.

The Geth fleet at this point is fully committed against the Citadel fleet- depending on your decision, the Arcturus fleet either sacrifices more ships to save the Ascension, or simply drives straight through to Sovereign. In either scenario, the Geth contribution to the Sovereign engagement seems negligible. 

Regardless, as I have stated this is not a fight that could be sustained in a prolonged conflict against a larger Reaper force. Even if the fleets "fight smart", the rate of attrition is just too high, especially considering that the Reapers make use of Destroyer support in their engagements- their actual fleet compliment is larger than just the Sovereign class ships.

Neither do I see any significant contradiction in the lore. The loss of 6 cruisers in a fleet vs. Reaper engagement seems comparable to the ME3 lore stating 3 Dreadnoughts are more or less equivalent to one Reaper.

[shodiswe]

Kind of makes me want to visit Khaje to locate an vital Protean artifact and sweep past the giant Hannar guns.. Must Bring Garrus for that.

Garrus: I would love to callibrate those!
Shepard: Maybe some other time Garrus, we're in a hurry.
Garrus: More of them! I think I'll move here if we survive the Reaper war. Or maybe a transfer..
Shepard: Don't even think about it!

[LucasShark]

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I know, right? 
I mean, you see SO many Reapers in that final cutscene in ME2, that if you counted them their numbers would show how numerous they are, how the Reapers alone outnumber every ship in the galaxy put together, how there are a grand total of....


295 Reapers.

Simple math would have their numbers far beyond that. 

If it is so simple: explain it?  Wait: you can't.

That is an assertion that that screenshot continues on in all directions and into depth, which it COULD, and probably does, but that's not a gaurenteed "mathematical" representation of power by any stretch of the imagination.

No you can quite literally use math. The Leviathan created the catalyst I believe 1 billion years ago? Each hrvest lasts around a century . In each Cycle a capital ship is made. 

If you can figure out hw many cycles there have been in 1 billion years you can find out how many capital ships have been made. It's far more than 295. 

Assuming they even have a leg to stand on to start with: arround 19,600

That is still an assumption, but slightly more valid than "they have a lot".

And that is irrevelant anyway: as it is into ME3's "roided up reapers" period.

But it really isn't though because from the very start we knew they had terrorized the galaxy for a very long time. Their numbers have nothing to do with ME3.

And keeping in mind, only one race per cycle is chosen to be a capital ship. The others are turned into Destroyers. There are  a lot of damn Reapers. They could win through numbers alone. 

"Very long time" is incredibly relative: to a human a hundred years is a very long time.

[.PHANTOM]

I'm actually interested in this, but am wondering how the Reapers would have so many of their reaper forces after so many cycles, seriously we see troops at least destroy one sovereign class ship in Priority Earth, so let me get this straight 1 sovereign class ship is created each cycle and the rest are turned into destroyers.

Also, all the reapers ever created made it to this cycle, none were destroyed in previous cycles or experienced anything that might have lowered their numbers, because we were able to easily take out the destroyers it seems, but wow i guess this cycle is the best one since we were at least able to lower their numbers from the start, with some tiny aid from the Protheans, who apparently weren't able to take down a single sovereign class reaper.

Modifié par .PHANTOM, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:12 .

[Kataphrut94]

There's this common assumption that Sovereign was only a challenge because he had the geth doing all the leg-work and on his own he was beatable. That would be a valid claim if it weren't for the fact that the Reapers invading in Mass Effect 3 aren't on their own - they have hundreds of other Reapers helping them out! An army of geth backing Sovereign up is definately what saved him, but an army of Reapers with unlimited ground troops in the form of husks, Cerberus lackeys and the indoctrinated geth only serves to blow the comparison out of the water.

That combined with the lack of need for fuel, kinetic barriers that can shrug off nukes and the big ****-off lasers and it's pretty easy to see why they're always winning.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Argolas wrote...

Err... just the opposite? A reaper capital ship can be destroyed by four dreadnoughts. Souvereign could stand the fire of the whole 5th fleet until its shields were overloaded.

And how many dreadnoughts do we have? Turians have the most at 39. The numbers don't stack up very well. And this is assuming that we can get a firing solution on a capital ship in the first place. Reaper MHD cannons outrange Citadel dreadnought weaponry. On an unrelated note, despite their uniform appearance, not all Sovereign-class Reapers are equal. Some can carry Oculi drones, some have stronger shields, etc.

As for Sovereign, according to the lore, it really was the heretic geth that did most of the damage. However, its shielding was still considerable, considering that it plowed right through a Turian cruiser like nobody's business.

.PHANTOM wrote...

I'm actually interested in this, but am wondering how the Reapers would have so many of their reaper forces after so many cycles, seriously we see troops at least destroy one sovereign class ship in Priority Earth, so let me get this straight 1 sovereign class ship is created each cycle and the rest are turned into destroyers.

Also, all the reapers ever created made it to this cycle, none were destroyed in previous cycles or experienced anything that might have lowered their numbers, because we were able to easily take out the destroyers it seems, but wow i guess this cycle is the best one since we were at least able to lower their numbers from the start, with some tiny aid from the Protheans, who apparently weren't able to take down a single sovereign class reaper.

It is said that Reapers rarely lose capital ships. Compared to previous cycles, our cycle is quite strong, possibly comparable to the Protheans in starship technology. According to Javik, the main gun of a geth dreadnought is on par with the flagship of the Prothean Empire. Considering its size, I suppose the Destiny Ascension may also be similar to the Prothean flagship in terms of capabilities. However, a Reaper Destroyer is roughly equivalent to an Alliance heavy cruiser. Just my little digression

A few things to consider. It's not known if disabled Reapers can be resurrected. It kinda irks me when the codex states that several capital ships got "downed," as that may not be indication of complete destruction. Indeed, when we see Reaper corpses in final battle cutscenes, none are shown to be completely blown up. This is understandable, considering that the main weapons of ME starships are kinetic energy weapons. "Dead" Reapers may have just been reduced to non-functionality like the Leviathan of Dis or perhaps like the Derelict Reaper (which, interestingly, uses the ME1 Sovereign model).

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:19 .

[ElSuperGecko]

LucasShark wrote...
Um: IT WAS!

It took centuries, with them shutting down the Relay network, and carefully sweeping from system to system.  They used indoctrinated Protheans to infiltrate hold-outs and then shut down their defenses for them to arrive.  It took so long that Vigil was down to a few stasus pods.  Remember any of this?  This was specifically explained.

Exactly.  Mass Effect 3 is not Gears of War and the Reapers are NOT the Locust.

The Reapers don't want a stand-up fight; they don't want a war of attrition, they don't want to go toe-to-toe with the combined armies of the galaxy, whether they have superior firepower and technology or not.  They want a decisive victory, with minimal losses on their side.  That's why they used the Citadel trap in ME1, that's why they indoctrinate organic species to sow chaos and bring down their opposition from within, that's why they had the Collectors try to build a Human Reaper in ME2.

Think about it; if EVERY Sovereign-class Reaper is the distilled and squishified essence of an entire species, and they only choose ONE race per cycle to create a Sovereign-class Reaper from, then EVERY loss they take renders the current cycle a failure, as they lose more than they gain.  And the Reapers lost Soveregin in ME1.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:17 .

[Drake-Shepard]

Op is right. They changed the reaper's from a tactic that is supposed to heavily rely on their surprise 'citadel-cut of relay' attack as an advantage...just tank everyone fairly easily instead.

It's inconsistent within ME3 aswell .... the reaper's own Earth's armada in 30 mins (the rest fly away) but somehow the Turians hold up a fight for a week or so. With some lame codex entry to justify it.

Reverse engineering sovereign weapons, no surprise attack via citadel, still holding the citadel, relays still on, diverse species this cycle (last cycle non- diversity was their downfall), reaper attack is atleast 2000 years behind schedule so everyone is now stronger

Basically none of these advantages were not mentioned? why? Because they decided to cater for new players so reaper power was redefined, conventional victory not possible and deus ex machina was made so shepard had something to chase.

The reaper power problem happened for the same reason as the ending being inconsistent with ME1/ME2 and the first half of ME3

It's a shame.. the writer's managed to introduce new players to the Tuchunka and Rannoch story arc's effectively so you know they can do it. Yet someone decided against doing the same for the main story.

[Drake-Shepard]

[quote]ElSuperGecko wrote...

[quote]LucasShark wrote...
Um: IT WAS!

It took centuries, with them shutting down the Relay network, and carefully sweeping from system to system.  They used indoctrinated Protheans to infiltrate hold-outs and then shut down their defenses for them to arrive.  It took so long that Vigil was down to a few stasus pods.  Remember any of this?  This was specifically explained./quote]

Exactly.  Mass Effect 3 is not Gears of War and the Reapers are NOT the Locust.

The Reapers don't want a stand-up fight; they don't want a war of attrition, they don't want to go toe-to-toe with the combined armies of the galaxy, whether they have superior firepower and technology or not.  They want a decisive victory, with minimal losses on their side.  That's why they used the Citadel trap in ME1, that's why they indoctrinate organic species to sow chaos and bring down their opposition from within, that's why they had the Collectors try to build a Human Reaper in ME2.

Think about it; if EVERY Sovereign-class Reaper is the distilled and squishified essence of an entire species, and they only choose ONE race per cycle to create a Sovereign-class Reaper from, then EVERY loss they take renders the current cycle a failure, as they lose more than they gain.  And the Reapers lost Soveregin in ME1.[/quote]

i get this. 

But the numerous advantages this cycle has was never mentioned. I was expecting Hackket to say something along the lines of ' atleast we can hold them off for a little bit due to your ME1 efforts' or 'the thianx cannon's are proving a bit more effective, but it;s still a losing battle'.
But they pretended all that stuff never happened...so with the argument above you are just give BW the benefit of the doubt when they didn't put in a single piece of dialogue for ME1 lore.

The reaper's captured the citadel anyway?? the one that becomes industructible when it closes. The one that saren needed to open and close for soveriegn because it was still not under their control. We can all think of explanations but one sentence explaining it would help not shatter immersion.

[shodiswe]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

LucasShark wrote...
Um: IT WAS!

It took centuries, with them shutting down the Relay network, and carefully sweeping from system to system.  They used indoctrinated Protheans to infiltrate hold-outs and then shut down their defenses for them to arrive.  It took so long that Vigil was down to a few stasus pods.  Remember any of this?  This was specifically explained.

Exactly.  Mass Effect 3 is not Gears of War and the Reapers are NOT the Locust.

The Reapers don't want a stand-up fight; they don't want a war of attrition, they don't want to go toe-to-toe with the combined armies of the galaxy, whether they have superior firepower and technology or not.  They want a decisive victory, with minimal losses on their side.  That's why they used the Citadel trap in ME1, that's why they indoctrinate organic species to sow chaos and bring down their opposition from within, that's why they had the Collectors try to build a Human Reaper in ME2.

Think about it; if EVERY Sovereign-class Reaper is the distilled and squishified essence of an entire species, and they only choose ONE race per cycle to create a Sovereign-class Reaper from, then EVERY loss they take renders the current cycle a failure, as they lose more than they gain.  And the Reapers lost Soveregin in ME1.

I don't think it's ever said that they only choose one every cycle. However lesserspecis get turned into destroyers.
In this cycle I tihnk they would create one Dreadnaught out of each council race and destroyers out of the others.
They are also goign for humanity first with their harvest fleet sicne we were closes to their point of entry in Batarian space, im sure they will harvest the others enmasse once they are done with earth, in the case where they win (IE, refuse).

[tvman099]

Sovereign was an unstoppable death machine that singlehandedly shredded dozens of ships while completely ignoring all fire form said ships until it resurrected Saren. Nothing about the Reapers in ME3 is as powerful as Sovereign was.

[ElSuperGecko]

shodiswe wrote...
I don't think it's ever said that they only choose one every cycle. However lesserspecis get turned into destroyers.
In this cycle I tihnk they would create one Dreadnaught out of each council race and destroyers out of the others.
They are also goign for humanity first with their harvest fleet sicne we were closes to their point of entry in Batarian space, im sure they will harvest the others enmasse once they are done with earth, in the case where they win (IE, refuse).

I can't remember where it was stated in game, but from the Mass Effect Wikia:

Available information suggests that a single race is harvested during each cycle to produce Reaper Capital Ships; it appears that other space-faring races harvested during the cycle are used to produce Destroyer-class Reapers. Exactly how or why this distinction is made is unknown.

In addition, we get Harbinger's quotes during ME2:

“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”
“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”
“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”
“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

We also know that not every attempt to create a Sovereign class Reaper is successful - with the Protheans, for example.  I would imagine that the races not considered for "ascention" into a Sovereign class Reaper become Destroyers, or slave races like how the Protheans became Collectors.

In any case, the point still stands - with harvesting civilisations being the only way to create new Reapers and replenish their forces, it would only take a couple of lost Reapers to make a war unsustainable, and for the cycle to break.  The Reapers do NOT want out and out war.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:50 .

[JBPBRC]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

In addition, we get Harbinger's quotes during ME2:

“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

I never quite understood these three reasons. Then again, it never really is explained how or why the genetic slush that makes up the Reaper slushie is significant, other than "preserving them in Reaper form".

[ElSuperGecko]

JBPBRC wrote...
I never quite understood these three reasons. Then again, it never really is explained how or why the genetic slush that makes up the Reaper slushie is significant, other than "preserving them in Reaper form".

....or how a civilisation's conciouness, identity and knowledge can be preserved by rendering it down into bio-goo, for that matter!

The most obvious answer is it doesn't, I guess.  And the only thing the Reapers are actually "preserving", is themselves.

[Gerbil Fetus]

Has their tactics changed In ME3 from sneaky sneaky to CRUSH KILL DESTROY in an all out war? yeah. but only because we took their Snakyness away when we stopped them from taking the Citadel in ME1(with help of the Protheans).

I dont see any problem with this really. Soverign was never meant to be getting into direct combat situations....could he handle combat? yeah but not alone. all his efforts were to buy time to get his buddies in. I say buy time, because the longer he is not in combat, the longer he can directly focus his attention on his goal of opening the relay for the overdue Reaping.
When confronted by the Fitfth Fleet, he manages to keep them at bay to the point they were going to pull back (Hackett tells them no remember?)

the reason the reapers are never portrayed as strong as they are in ME3, is because That is actually when they are at their strongest.

Our cycle does seem to be faring better than others however, and i agree that Reaper tech pretty much has no real expiration date, (derilict reaper anyone?) and i imagine that part of their Harvest/construction of Various Reapers be they the Destroyers, at least one Capital Soverighn class Ship, further enhancements to ground troops (ala the Prothean husks becoming more akin to the Collectors, enforced by Jabik's line about the numerous monstrosities a 100+ war brings)
That they wpould also be Repairing their forces, and taking any raw materials from their Victories to do so.

The reapers are strong, but the ME1 citadel trap was intended to make the Attack as devastating as possible, turning it from a Fight they could win , into a "Curbstomp battle". The cycles are meant to run as quickly and efficiently as possible.
It cant be helped that Shepard and the Protheans kept gumming up the works.

[Davik Kang]

.PHANTOM wrote...
Also, all the reapers ever created made it to this cycle, none were destroyed in previous cycles or experienced anything that might have lowered their numbers, because we were able to easily take out the destroyers it seems, but wow i guess this cycle is the best one since we were at least able to lower their numbers from the start, with some tiny aid from the Protheans, who apparently weren't able to take down a single sovereign class reaper.

I think the idea is that yes, this cycle is the strongest so far.  Which I think is the result of the combined efforts of Shepard and co. since ME1.  The galaxy is much better prepared because of the victories over Sovereign and the Collectors.

As for the Protheans, the fact that they lasted centuries is perhaps testament to their own efforts.  But I think the ME1 and ME2 Alliance victories contribute to the Reapers' more desperate all-out assault in ME3.

As for the point about indoctrination, I think indoctrination is a tool / weapon the Reapers use, rather than the point of the war itself.  Imagine if Saren hadn't been discovered stealing the Beacon and killing Nihlus in ME1.  They wouldn't have needed to panic then to open the conduit, and instead could have bided their time while they indictrinated numerous other key persons across the galaxy, which would have made resistance impossible if none of those had been discovered either.  It was basically quite lucky that Ash, Kaiden, Nihlus and Shepard were all on Eden Prime when that happened, and was the start of them becomeing heroes.

Thread is almost completely free of trolls - good job.

[fishcurry]

I think we can agree that ME3 is a lost cause. Had the situation been ideal (Bioware not having to worry about quarter end profit margins, original writer still on board) ME3 would likely not have looked the way it does right now.

As it is, I kinda have to compare it to command and conquer: first few games were amazing, and then the series went out with a whimper.

All we can do now is wash our hands of the franchise, purge our minds of these bad memories, and hope that eventually, some game company, somewhere (maybe even Bioware if they return to their roots) makes an RPG that starts AND finishes with equal glory.

[simonrana]

The trouble is that Mass Effect has not been totally consistent with what we've been shown about the Reapers even in a single game, and as a result people have gotten really strong views on how they're "supposed" to be based on the parts that stuck out for them.

Take for example in ME1, Vigil tells Shepard that Sovereign can't take on the united forces of the Citadel. But then they depict him doing just that! He may not be fighting them, but he appears to be completely invulnerable to their combined attack and Hackett says just as much. From how it was depicted at that point he could have sat there indefinitely had his shields not overloaded as a result of the Saren possession.

[What a Succulent Ass]

LucasShark wrote...


Are you being intensionally stupid?

Forreal tho. That comment causes me some serious secondhand embarrassment.

[ATiBotka]

Argolas wrote...

Err... just the opposite? A reaper capital ship can be destroyed by four dreadnoughts. Souvereign could stand the fire of the whole 5th fleet until its shields were overloaded.

this

[Feanor_II]

Well... in my case it's just the opposite.... after playing ME1 I expected that if there was an open battle as on Earth's orbit in Proroty:Earth it would be even easier for the Reapers to win......

[The Spamming Troll]

reapers = benny hill theme song