135 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcite550]

Im looking to go into Game design myself now that im out of the Airforce. Bioware and Bethesda are my inspirations for this choice next to a passion. I am going to say that Bioware has a lot of eyes on them. With EA the doctors leaving the ME3 ending. DA3 can make or break them, my suggestion..... listen to the fans. Do what they would like and not try to drag new people in, its the ones you have now that will keep you floating as a company. I was upset with the ME3 ending, it really made hate EA all the more for ruining the ME series and then crippling DA2.... please don't let them have the same effect with DA3 its the redemption needed for Bioware. A lot has happened in the last year for yall but I am still behind you all 100% as Im sure many of the forumites are. This is me trying to up the ante, light a fire under  Biowares bums. Im not saying give the middle finger to EA.... well maybe make that a DA3 easter egg . Just know that I have great hopes for DA3 but im going to keep my expectations low (sounds bad I know). I just mean that the lower my expectations are the better the actual game will since it will obviously exceed my expectations.

Thats my two cents... any comments, agreements, disagreements?

Modifié par Arcite550, 04 octobre 2012 - 09:27 .

[The h0bb1t]

Totally agree.

After the DA2 and ME3 debacle, this really will be the game that will define how much people will support them.
As for me personally, I think DA2 was a mayor let down, but ME3 was a great game, the ending however was different, but that doesn't take away that I had a great 60 hour experience and overal I'm glad to be introduced to Mass Effect.
I still expect them to make a great game, but I hope they will pay as much attention to the small details as they've done in the past with KOTOR, DA:O and ME1.

By the way, I'm a game-designer too (still at school even), let's just say you really need to put allot of effort into your choice, as it is not going to be an easy road.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Arcite550 wrote...

my suggestion..... listen to the fans.

Tell me, why do you wish to get into game development? Do you really want to develop somebody else's game or do you wish to develop your own?

[fchopin]

Let Bioware make the game they want in the way they want.

When professionals work on what they like they can produce good and exciting games, if they work on adding this and that to make fans happy we will get a crappy game that makes no sense.

[Vox Draco]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Arcite550 wrote...

my suggestion..... listen to the fans.

Tell me, why do you wish to get into game development? Do you really want to develop somebody else's game or do you wish to develop your own?

If you do not at all listen to the fans (customers) you might develop your own game ... and only for yourself...

As much as it is important to have a strong personal vision of what you want to make as your game, you should be aware of the people that later are supposed to buy your stuff.

I think the main reason for the ME3-ending-mess was that some people at Bioware forgot or ignored how the fans will play the game and react to it. The devs may have seen their game as their own baby, their own product that everybody is supposed to love (the "ar"t-thingy...)...but it doesn't work that way, I am afraid...

Usually it is very, very wise to once close your eyes, take a deep breathe and step out of yourself for a moment, to look at your work through somebody elses eyes. It prevents "corporation blindness" and makes you relate better to the fans that you want to entertain...and not, like the ME3 ending, annoy and spit in the face...and very important: Listen first, not after the mess has happenend...valuable ME3-lesson for every game-dev...

[Shevy]

Listening to the fans? Then we'll likely get a date sim where everyone and everything romances each other ;D (no offense)
They should have a clear line what THEY want to achieve with the game and where to take it. And maybe sometimes a well reasoned post here on the forums provides them an idea or an impulse towards something that would fit well into the game. Like the option to kiss your LI outside of the sex scene.
The fanbase is split so they have to call tough decisions from time to time and someone will be "not amused", but the development must proceed.
I'm not a fan of DA II, some call us haters , but I have to accept that they're going with voiced protag/dialogue wheel and likely some other not liked features of DA II.
Strictly listening to the fans wouldn't get the game anywhere.
Not speaking about mistakes like recycled environments, parachuting waves or act III here, because I'm convinced they're able to avoid such obvious mistakes this time, even without our input.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 03 octobre 2012 - 06:49 .

[The h0bb1t]

I think you guy are taking it pretty far, he doesn't mean that they should take every idea the of the board and implement them in-game.
He means that they should listen to the general opinion here on some matters. The only thing Bioware f*cks up is that they take it a bit TOO far imo. Instead of fixing things that aren't broken, they should've perfected them.
(ME1: "The inventory system isn't easy to manage and navigate" ME2: Let's dumb it down for you guy. "We don't want it dumbed down, we just a better way of customizing and equipping weapons" ME3: Okay okay, here, the perfect mix of both worlds. "Okay thanks Bioware, now don't change everything again next time.")

The thing is, at least they listen and I give them credit for being one of the only studio's who actually do that, but it's like they don't have a quality assurance team that has played their previous games, or are even fans of the franchise.

Modifié par The h0bb1t, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Arcite550]

I want to be a game designer because after getting blown up a couple times overseas I got in my head to to follow my dreams. Crazy notion I know, hard work does not bother me.

Now on a few of the notes brought up here are my counter arguements.

To Mxy, being a game designer to me should have synergy between the devs and the fans. With a brand new IP obviously fan input would be minimal I am mostly saying the fans normally have very common notions for what they would like to see. For DA3 I see a couple common trends one being a mix of DAO and DA2 combat. While this may be a little hard to implement I have full faith in Bioware.

On the point of adding what all the fans say is an awful idea I highly disagree. Now some ideas people would like wont make sense and its quite obvious they wont make it, things like "Hey maybe a bit more armor customization" or "Expand on the current classes a little." I feel things like that are within reason. Also what is wrong with having a "dating sim" built in. Romance is in human nature if you ask me and if people want a built in "dating sim" I dont think it should be held against them. No one is forcing your PC to romance someone.

I do feel that a Game Dev should stick to their vision but I also feel a lot of times things fans say go untouched and unnoticed while other things are picked up easily most commonly the battle systems etc etc.

Now let me make it clear once more that I am not telling Bioware to strictly listen to fans, that could get absurd on some items, but they should be keeping an ear to the fans for other smaller ideas. After all its often the small things that can make a big difference.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Vox Draco wrote...

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Arcite550 wrote...

my suggestion..... listen to the fans.

Tell me, why do you wish to get into game development? Do you really want to develop somebody else's game or do you wish to develop your own?

If you do not at all listen to the fans (customers) you might develop your own game ... and only for yourself...

As much as it is important to have a strong personal vision of what you want to make as your game, you should be aware of the people that later are supposed to buy your stuff.

I think the main reason for the ME3-ending-mess was that some people at Bioware forgot or ignored how the fans will play the game and react to it. The devs may have seen their game as their own baby, their own product that everybody is supposed to love (the "ar"t-thingy...)...but it doesn't work that way, I am afraid...

Usually it is very, very wise to once close your eyes, take a deep breathe and step out of yourself for a moment, to look at your work through somebody elses eyes. It prevents "corporation blindness" and makes you relate better to the fans that you want to entertain...and not, like the ME3 ending, annoy and spit in the face...and very important: Listen first, not after the mess has happenend...valuable ME3-lesson for every game-dev...

To be honest I really dont think the problems with ME3's ending had much to do with not listening to the fans and the creation of art but more because they were creating a product that needed to be shipped on time and sold to the masses.

Now I am not saying that Bioware shouldnt listen to the fans but what I am saying is that any suggestions made by the fans should be taken with a grain of salt and only obliged provided they are feasable and dont compromise your own artistic vision and design goals for the game. If the game is good people will buy it but the moment you start compromising on your own artisic vision and give into fan demands you are no longer creating art but merely a product and the game will be worse off for it.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Arcite550 wrote...

I want to be a game designer because after getting blown up a couple times overseas I got in my head to to follow my dreams. Crazy notion I know, hard work does not bother me.

Let me just say I am not mocking you for this goal as it is something I understand all too well (well perhaps not the getting blown up part), but as an aspiring game developer surely there is that vision in your head of the game you wish to create, do you really want people telling you how to create that game to better suit their vision rather than your own?

[FINE HERE]

Arcite550 wrote...

I want to be a game designer because after getting blown up a couple times overseas I got in my head to to follow my dreams. Crazy notion I know, hard work does not bother me.

Good luck. I hope you are successful.

On topic, I'm sure that they are listening to the fans, but they're not gonna follow every suggestion. For example, there is a lot of hate against the dialog wheel(damn it to hell), but several people from Bioware have said they're still going to use it. There's also trolls running around starting joke threads like 'Romance Bethanie,' and 'Romance darkspawn', so clearly, there are a few people to ignore and a few bits of wisdom to consider. (Personally, I'm surprised no one started the 'Let us romance our dog!' thread...)

Modifié par FINE HERE, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:51 .

[Arcite550]

I get you dude and i understand where your coming from. My thing is right now DA3 is kind of a last stand in my eyes and with that said it should be very important to see what the fans want. Especially in the situation that bioware is in. Now for my game vision id love to make a cross of elder scrolls customization and exploration then story telling on par with bioware as well as character depth. Then for fun a tiny bit of fables systems

[daaaav]

Arcite550 wrote...

I get you dude and i understand where your coming from. My thing is right now DA3 is kind of a last stand in my eyes and with that said it should be very important to see what the fans want. Especially in the situation that bioware is in. Now for my game vision id love to make a cross of elder scrolls customization and exploration then story telling on par with bioware as well as character depth. Then for fun a tiny bit of fables systems

Umm, what precisely are you advocating they take from fable?

I would also be careful with what you wish regarding the elder scrolls. Skyrim was a marvelous hiking simulator, but I don't want Bioware to go down that path at the expense of story and characterisation.

[Ferretinabun]

Arcite550 wrote...

my suggestion..... listen to the fans.

In fairness, I have never thought responding to customer feedback was a problem of Bioware's. If anything, they paint themselves into a corner by trying too hard to please all their fans. Practically all the most notable changes in DA2 and ME2 were in direct response to criticisms of their original games. And what was Bioware's first step in developing DA3? Asking the fans for DA2 feedback right here on the forums.

Bioware fans have a truly huge impact on the games the company develops. The real issue is that 'the fans' do not speak with one voice. They all want 'a great game', but is that a truly immersive, classic RPG where you are expected to micromange every tiny detail down to your companions' underwear choice, or a flashy, 'streamlined' action-RPG with cartoonish combat animations? Silent protagonist or voiced? All bisexual romances or canon sexualities? Deep character background or a choice of origins? There's contention and debate on so many aspects, and all evidence shows Bioware is doing its utmost to gauge popular opinion.

[Arcite550]

daaaav wrote...

Arcite550 wrote...

I get you dude and i understand where your coming from. My thing is right now DA3 is kind of a last stand in my eyes and with that said it should be very important to see what the fans want. Especially in the situation that bioware is in. Now for my game vision id love to make a cross of elder scrolls customization and exploration then story telling on par with bioware as well as character depth. Then for fun a tiny bit of fables systems

Umm, what precisely are you advocating they take from fable?

I would also be careful with what you wish regarding the elder scrolls. Skyrim was a marvelous hiking simulator, but I don't want Bioware to go down that path at the expense of story and characterisation.

Oh no man I was talking about my for a game that I may or may not create. The whole idea was take the expansive and open world of a TES game and take what Bioware in my opinion is best at story and character depth putting them into one game. The thing i liked most about Fable was the visual differences from your morality. Now as that was more of a light hearted joke its still an interesting concept to mix it in.

But as I said that there was not about how and what Bioware does in their game making process.

Back to the lines of listening to the fans, Yes I get that listening to everyone would make one big... DERP of a game. Which is why I was trying to say they need moderate what they choose from.

Person A: We would like to see a possible expansion on the romance in the games by adding weddings or perhaps even a longer time where your "Betrothed" to your LI of choice. It just seems kind of weird that you finally have your LI all wrapped up in the last 20 minutes of the game.

Person B: We would like to see a large expansion on the weapons and armor in the game giving us more options and customization for your characters and party members. Also a upgradeable player house would be pretty cool for fun of it like in NwN 2

Person C: We would like to see the classes and specializations further widened. For example why not add more spells into the Mage tree and maybe one or two more specialization for each class.

Person D: We would love to see a longer game with new and cool enemies and a mix of DA:O combat and DA2 combat. As well as our choices really making a difference


Those are examples that ive made, well to an extent ive scoured most of the biggest requests for DA3 threads and those are just some of the very common themes Ive found. Now it would be amazing and wonderful to see all of those implemented I have a feeling that a good amount of requests are swept under the rug due to cost time and man power I understand that all to well. Personally I really have a bone to pick with the last part of D, but that will be a whole different thread.

[snackrat]

They already take fan feedback into account, just with a pinch of salt.

DAO was sort of 'testing the waters'. After getting feedback on what worked and what didn't, they over-corrected ( as well as tried new things) for DA][. My hope is that now that they have two points to work with, they can find a happy medium. This change was good so keep it, this feature missed so bring it back, we went overboard on fixing these so we need to tone it somewhere between, etc.

Please excuse my mobile device formatting or any weird auto-corrects

[DarthLaxian]

hey guys

of course they should listen to us fans - but they should not slave for us and implement everything (even things contrary to each other)

greetings LAX
ps: to those that tell them not to listen:

look what happened: DA2 and ME3!

[mousestalker]

Yes and no.

They shouldn't let the discussions on BSN or other places effect what they have planned for game direction, but fan reaction to what has worked or has not worked in the past is something they should heed.

By way of example, if DA3 takes the PC and her companions to Tevinter, then on the subject is useless. We do not know what Tevinter is like or what the PC will do there. We do not know what adventures await.

On the other hand, if they decide to implement some sort of romance, knowing what or what did not work for the fans is important if they create a sex scene (Fade to black is probably the best result here). Similarly, knowing that a sizeable portion of the fanbase thought some of the DA2 armour looked ridiculous (the cupholder, for example) is worth attending to.

[Plaintiff]

GIven that most of the fans are a) not game developers and completely silent, I wouldn't advise it.

[KingRoxas]

Should Bioware listen to the fans for Dragon Age 3

A)Yes(They are listening), and continue to talk to the community about ideas (Bring back the monthly question, even if you don't care about the answer/and bring back the podcast series) (Engaging in conversation with the fans)

Modifié par Kingroxas, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:05 .

[TsaiMeLemoni]

I think it can be a slippery slope. Once you've released something and established a fan base, I think it can be useful to use them as a gauge for which direction to go in for some situations, but in general I don't think it's a good idea to try completely satisfy the demands of the fan base.

I know making games is different than movies and TV, but some of these formats have a similar relationship with the fans and I just think of various projects that started out great (cough*Heroes*cough) and then nose-dived in quality, and a large degree of that can be placed on trying too hard to satisfy fan demands instead of simply telling a story.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 04 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Icinix]

I see a lot of commentary about how DA3 can make or break them...


..I don't think they've released a lot of games that haven't made a lot of profit....now don't get me wrong - their last few releases have been below par in my eyes - but they're still very, very profitable and EA has a long term plan for BioWare as a label.


Anywya - should they listen to fans? I really, really don't know. Sometimes when a company implements general fan views its a win, other times its a fail.

Maybe yes, just because their has been a lot of backlash and polarisation over the last few releases. Pretty sure they are listening to fans though - they've asked for opinions in the questions of the month for DA3, they've engaged in discussion about ideas etc. I like to think at the very least thats a positive step forward - if not for DA3 - but future games.

[Killer3000ad]

Bioware does not need to listen to every little minor request from the fans, but they at least need to be aware of the failings of DA2 and ME3 and fan criticism of those two games.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 04 octobre 2012 - 11:03 .

[KiwiQuiche]

A good compromise leaves everyone angry.

[Sister Goldring]

Well to be honest, probably not so much.

I think they have to take the temperature of the water so to speak, just to get an idea of what the big issues are with their vocal fanbase but really they have millions of customers and only a small amount of them ever contribute on forums. I think they need to pay attention to whatever data they've collected through in-game mechanisms, it is likely to be much more impartial and indicative of what features their consumers are actually using in game.

I also think it's a bit rich to tell a group of professionals how to do their job unless you actually are in that industry. I think fan feedback is better once you have something concrete on the table to discuss. You know a sort of 'I liked this part, that part but the other not so much' and even then 'I' is just a drop in the ocean for these guys.

There isn't a great deal of concensus among the fans here that I've observed but I still think it could be worthwhile for them to try to extapolate whatever useful themes they can find from the myriad of opposing opinions on the BSN.

Unless of course it's just ME, in which case absolutely Bioware should do exactly what I want!