451 réponses à ce sujet

[Rovay]

No. And I'm still surprised there are people who did.

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

And I never quite understand why everybody dismisses 'Conventional Victory' as silly (despite being told by Hackett that we are holding our own and even beating the Reapers back if our galactic readiness is high enough), when the only alternative is 'God Button we built through magics'.  I understand that some players wanted a twist ending, but even without the ugly moral connotations that concept is just so preposterous.

It's not because of what Hackett said. It's because in the end of ME1 we saw a reaper take on a fleet and were told a massive fleet of that which dwarfs the number of the galexys fleets combined is coming. 

I'm not saying it's a good plan...  Just a hell of a lot more consistent (and more satisfying) than 'I Win Button' from space.

No plan would beata fleet of ships like sovergin that would dwarf the entire galexy. We need to us something that attack the reaper weakness. The crucible does that.

We can't win conventioanly. It was never stated we ever could.

[Newnation]

Considering what Sovereign did in ME to the Citedal and Fifth fleet by himself, what it took to knock out his kinetic barriers, and seeing the entire reaper fleet at the end of ME 2, I never thought the reapers would be beaten conventionally.

[macrocarl]

I don't play that many games so am not conditioned to have a narrative where everyone says you can't do the impossible and then you can at the end. So no, I had no idea what would happen, but I had a very strong suspicion through all 3 games that Reaper tech was way more advanced than Shep and the galaxy and that some sort of extraordinary help would be needed to pull it off.

[dreman9999]

macrocarl wrote...

I don't play that many games so am not conditioned to have a narrative where everyone says you can't do the impossible and then you can at the end. So no, I had no idea what would happen, but I had a very strong suspicion through all 3 games that Reaper tech was way more advanced than Shep and the galaxy and that some sort of extraordinary help would be needed to pull it off.

It has nothing to do with  what is shown in ME. It's that the player is use to being told somethingis unbetable and then later beating it just because.

[Piplodocus]

Eterna5 wrote...

No, because after the first mission Admiral Hackett says it isn't possible.

If I was given to sarcasm I might ask if you'd ever seen a film or read a novel. It is a staple, a mainstay, an actual tradition of adventure fiction that the hero is told something is impossible, but by gosh he silences the doubters and succeeds. 

John McClane is told he can't help the people stuck in the aeroplanes.

Picard is told the only way to stop the Borg is to blow up the Enterprise.

In Desperation, David Carver is told there's no way he can get through the bars of the prison cell so he shouldn't try.

In each of these cases, the hero overcomes the odds despite being told it's impossible, even by people who are supoosedly their allies, this is key in this discussion. And it is absolutely true to say that victory despite the odds through teamwork by disparate and vastly different people is one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant themes of the series (look no further than the climax of ME2, in which there's mission described as a "suicide mission" by absolutely everyone throughout the game, in which absolutely everyone involved can actually come out alive - yet another example of the hero overcoming the proscriptive speculations of the rest of the cast).

Modifié par Piplodocus, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:37 .

[Raging_Pulse]

dreman9999 wrote...

Domecoming wrote...

OP,

Yes, that was totally reasonable assumption one could make.

Thanks to Comander Shepard, a galaxy of various different species is fighting together against the Reapers. That, as we learn, was not very common sight in previous cycles. 

A LOT of things throughout all three games point out to "if we work together, we can do anything!" and "against all odds" theme the OP is reffering to. It is hardly the most effective and original way to conclude the trilogy, but can someone honestly say it is worse than what we have now? 

When you first saw Sovergin take on a fleet on his own and then you found out a fleet, the dwarfs all the fleets in they galexy combined and has the same abilities as sovergin , was coming...You said to yourself you can conventioanlly take that?

It's not that simple. You have to look at the bigger picture and take Shepard's accomplishments into account.

He DID screwed the Reapers pretty badly if you think about it.

Because of what he did in ME1, Reapers couldn't just spawn right in the middle of the Galaxy in full force (like they always do). They couldn't just capture the Citadel right away and gain all the information and knowledge about us. They couldn't immediately shut the relays down and isolate everyone in their systems for easy slaughtering...

Shepard bought us quite the head start, and considering that it took centuries for reapers to defeat the Protheans who were caught completely off guard, it isn't so far fetched to expect for us to have at least a fighting chance.

Reapers are not invincible, especially if you trap them in a freaking dark space and they're forced to come "on foot". And besides, victory achieved by conventional means requires far less suspension of disbelief than via Crucible magic beams...

[Versus Omnibus]

No

[drayfish]

Piplodocus wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

No, because after the first mission Admiral Hackett says it isn't possible.

If I was given to sarcasm I might ask if you'd ever seen a film or read a novel. It is a staple, a mainstay, an actual tradition of adventure fiction that the hero is told something is impossible, but by gosh he silences the doubters and succeeds. 

John McClane is told he can't help the people stuck in the aeroplanes.

Picard is told the only way to stop the Borg is to blow up the Enterprise.

In Desperation, David Carver is told there's no way he can get through the bars of the prison cell so he shouldn't try.

In each of these cases, the hero overcomes the odds despite being told it's impossible, even by people who are supoosedly their allies, this is key in this discussion. And it is absolutely true to say that victory despite the odds through teamwork by disparate and vastly different people is one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant themes of the series (look no further than the climax of ME2, in which there's mission described as a "suicide mission" by absolutely everyone throughout the game, in which absolutely everyone involved can actually come out alive - yet another example of the hero overcoming the proscriptive speculations of the rest of the cast).

Beautifully said.  And certainly the journey Mass Effect was presenting for all three narratives until we landed in Arbitrary Land in the final ten minutes.

[Icinix]

I was exepecting a lot of main characters to die through the story, I was expecting some planets / races to be lost, I was expecting ME3 to be spread over a reasonably long time line....I was expecting to have to sacrifice a lot to take out the Reapers and a severely damaged galaxy could then rebuild from the ashes.

We got heroes, we united races, we held the Reapers at bay, we had two old men die for greater causes, and the codex and game was filled with little stories of the Reapers actually losing quantities of units and ships.....then we got a rather easy victory button that did stuff that didn't make sense.

I do think there is more to come though.

[dreman9999]

Domecoming wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Domecoming wrote...

OP,

Yes, that was totally reasonable assumption one could make.

Thanks to Comander Shepard, a galaxy of various different species is fighting together against the Reapers. That, as we learn, was not very common sight in previous cycles. 

A LOT of things throughout all three games point out to "if we work together, we can do anything!" and "against all odds" theme the OP is reffering to. It is hardly the most effective and original way to conclude the trilogy, but can someone honestly say it is worse than what we have now? 

When you first saw Sovergin take on a fleet on his own and then you found out a fleet, the dwarfs all the fleets in they galexy combined and has the same abilities as sovergin , was coming...You said to yourself you can conventioanlly take that?

It's not that simple. You have to look at the bigger picture and take Shepard's accomplishments into account.

He DID screwed the Reapers pretty badly if you think about it.

Because of what he did in ME1, Reapers couldn't just spawn right in the middle of the Galaxy in full force (like they always do). They couldn't just capture the Citadel right away and gain all the information and knowledge about us. They couldn't immediately shut the relays down and isolate everyone in their systems for easy slaughtering...

Shepard bought us quite the head start, and considering that it took centuries for reapers to defeat the Protheans who were caught completely off guard, it isn't so far fetched to expect for us to have at least a fighting chance.

Reapers are not invincible, especially if you trap them in a freaking dark space and they're forced to come "on foot". And besides, victory achieved by conventional means requires far less suspension of disbelief than via Crucible magic beams...

I did take that in consideration. Nothing Shep did brough all our forces to equal strenght, tech, and numbers of the reaper. Everything Shepard did in ME1 and 2 gave enough to fight back, but not win.

And conventionial victory does mean more suspension of disbelief. 
The first reaper we saw took on a fleet, we later find out that the reaper  number dwarfs the fleet of the galexy and no one was seriously perparing for the reapers out side of cerberus and the sb for 2 years. How do yu get a convetional victory out of that?

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

Piplodocus wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

No, because after the first mission Admiral Hackett says it isn't possible.

If I was given to sarcasm I might ask if you'd ever seen a film or read a novel. It is a staple, a mainstay, an actual tradition of adventure fiction that the hero is told something is impossible, but by gosh he silences the doubters and succeeds. 

John McClane is told he can't help the people stuck in the aeroplanes.

Picard is told the only way to stop the Borg is to blow up the Enterprise.

In Desperation, David Carver is told there's no way he can get through the bars of the prison cell so he shouldn't try.

In each of these cases, the hero overcomes the odds despite being told it's impossible, even by people who are supoosedly their allies, this is key in this discussion. And it is absolutely true to say that victory despite the odds through teamwork by disparate and vastly different people is one of the most dominant, if not the most dominant themes of the series (look no further than the climax of ME2, in which there's mission described as a "suicide mission" by absolutely everyone throughout the game, in which absolutely everyone involved can actually come out alive - yet another example of the hero overcoming the proscriptive speculations of the rest of the cast).

Beautifully said.  And certainly the journey Mass Effect was presenting for all three narratives until we landed in Arbitrary Land in the final ten minutes.

Yo do realize that does not mean we have to have convetional means of victory becuae other stories did. Hell, Pecard  had to us unconvetional means to stop the borg.

[Bill Casey]

Piplodocus wrote...

Picard is told the only way to stop the Borg is to blow up the Enterprise.

The Line Must Be Drawn Here!















Locutus has a chat with Worf

[RebelTitan428]

i didnt expect conventional victory, but i sure as hell didn't expect space magic.

[Zardoc]

Tbh, the question should've been "Did anyone NOT expect that kind of ending".

[sistersafetypin]

It never occurred to me that Bioware wouldn't provide a paragon, your LI and most of your crew survive via conventional victory option. I mean, I fully expected an everyone dies option like ME2, but I didn't think that would be the only option

[GreyLycanTrope]

sistersafetypin wrote...

It never occurred to me that Bioware wouldn't provide a paragon, your LI and most of your crew survive via conventional victory option. I mean, I fully expected an everyone dies option like ME2, but I didn't think that would be the only option

This I expect a way to get a "golden" ending if I put enough effort into preparing for the final battle much like ME2.

[inversevideo]

Not a conventional victory. But I expected we would drop "the bomb".

Mars - we find out about the crucible. A dark energy weapon capable of "unquantifiable levels of destruction".

Thus commences the Crucible Project. The largest undertaking the Citadel races have attempted together.
It is meant to evoke the allies of WW2 and the Manhattan Project.

All the races, even the Geth, all working together, pooling resources and scientific knowledge.
Everywhere that Shepard goes, she gathers resources for this undertaking.

You beat back Cerberus, you unite the galaxy.

I felt anticipation when my fleet reached Sol, and I trotted out the Crucible.
I had to fight ground forces, get shot, burned, and dumped into an **** nasty abattoir , only to discover that my Reaper killer does not work. WTH? What was all that for? Mordin died for nothing? Legion died for nothing? Thane spent his last days dying like that for nothing? Thessia sacrificed, all for nothing.

I felt the entire game set you up. You worked hard to unite a galaxy, to build the crucible, and at the last moment, you get trolled. 'ART' wears the face of a troll.

Modifié par inversevideo, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Aaleel]

I was hoping that I would discover more hidden areas like Ilos, things that the reapers missed by other races from many cycles, and through that organics would piece together some means to stop the reapers. But that idea was denied early when I was smacked in the face with the crucible storyline.

And honestly, if there was some huge boss fight where you fought your way to the crucible and used, and it destroyed the reapers with no collateral damage, no one would be complaining about a conventional victory being possible. People were more than willing to accept the reapers power until the got to the ending.

[AlanC9]

inversevideo wrote...

I had to fight ground forces, get shot, burned, and dumped into an **** nasty abattoir , only to discover that my Reaper killer does not work.

That's weird. Mine worked.

And if you expected the device to simply kill Reapers, you weren't paying attention. Everyone who knows anything about the Crucible keeps mentioning that they don't know exactly what it's supposed to do. Including Shepard.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 octobre 2012 - 10:43 .

[inversevideo]

AlanC9 wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

I had to fight ground forces, get shot, burned, and dumped into an **** nasty abattoir , only to discover that my Reaper killer does not work.

That's weird. Mine worked.

No. It's not weird. I am we'll aware that pro-Enders, like yourself, feel the crucible worked fine.

I got it. Pro- ender view is that crucible designers knew about the Starkid and designed the crucible with him in mind.

Does not work for me. Does work for you. We can agree to disagree.

[Daxamite]

After ME2, yes i thought there would be conventional victory of some sort, tied into the ME2 dark energy plotline (esp when Liara in LOTSB mentions that the SHadow broker thought there might be more PRothean stuff that could help us).

Once ME3 started off on Earth and we saw the sheer scale of the invasion, I thought maybe not. To be fair though, the Crucible works so well this time because you bring together different species (the rachni for example).

silentassassin264 wrote...

No. The Protheans had a entire galaxy working together through cooperation from the beginning and failed.

not cooperation. THe protheans were imperialists who conquered other races. Javik shows a lot of surprise that different species work together under the Citadel, and comments that our diversity in this cycle gives us strength which his cycle lacked as it was lost in the drive to force everyone into conformity under Prothean rule.

[UniqueName001]

Short answer to OP: Yes, I did expect something like that

Longer answer:

I expected a combination of early warning, special knowledge (the beacon/cipher), previous cycle's efforts (the Protheans having disabled the keepers), and yes, cooperation/coordination to be the key to winning the game. Part of the Reaper MO was to divide and conquer; preventing this would be a new advantage to fighting them.

Basically, I imagined that each cycle had gotten closer and closer to defeating the Reapers, and that this cycle would be the one to finally accomplish it.

What I did not expect:
The idea that the Reapers are "good guys", "protecting" organics
That the ending would be based so heavily on the concept of the singularity
The idea that there was a single entity in control of the Reapers
The "choose A, B, or C" ending
Synthesis. So much wrong with this idea.

[dreman9999]

sistersafetypin wrote...

It never occurred to me that Bioware wouldn't provide a paragon, your LI and most of your crew survive via conventional victory option. I mean, I fully expected an everyone dies option like ME2, but I didn't think that would be the only option

Why would they ? It was never promised.

[dreman9999]

inversevideo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

I had to fight ground forces, get shot, burned, and dumped into an **** nasty abattoir , only to discover that my Reaper killer does not work.

That's weird. Mine worked.

No. It's not weird. I am we'll aware that pro-Enders, like yourself, feel the crucible worked fine.

I got it. Pro- ender view is that crucible designers knew about the Starkid and designed the crucible with him in mind.

Does not work for me. Does work for you. We can agree to disagree.

It works. You just don't like how it works.