451 réponses à ce sujet

[sharkboy421]

Saberchic wrote...

I actually did think we would be beating them conventionally. Up until 3, we've always been able to pull off the impossible.

This so much.  From the way the devs talked about going around "gathering allies" I was expecting DAO in space.  Get all the races behind you, go fight a climatic battle, have a show down with Harbinger, win and go home.  The crucible itself, while kinda dumb was alright to include.  Having a super weapon is fine, it only fell apart when the catalyst showed up.

[FOX216BC]

 The lauch trailer did a good job at fooling me.




www.youtube.com/watch

[GimmeDaGun]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I actually did think we would be beating them conventionally. Up until 3, we've always been able to pull off the impossible.

This so much.  From the way the devs talked about going around "gathering allies" I was expecting DAO in space.  Get all the races behind you, go fight a climatic battle, have a show down with Harbinger, win and go home.  The crucible itself, while kinda dumb was alright to include.  Having a super weapon is fine, it only fell apart when the catalyst showed up.

Now that would be boring to me as hell... but in the end it comes down to one's pesonal preferences and taste. I personally would have found a conventional victory and star warsesque ending ridiculous and story breaking. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:17 .

[XqctaX]

put it this way.

it was hinted at in all trailers that we would win the war by fighting after gathering allies.

too win the WAR and overcome the impossible by working and fighting together.

that was also the only real main theme of mass effect.
to gather allies/cooperate and win an inpossible war/fight no matter the odds.

[GimmeDaGun]

FOX216BC wrote...

 The lauch trailer did a good job at fooling me.




www.youtube.com/watch

Trailers are for hyping up people but they try not to give too much away about the story: that would be spoiling it. Trailers are usually spoiler heavy enough. The ones for ME3 didn't fool anyone intentionally. The particular scene which is shown in the trailer is in the game, and yes there's a final push against the reapers and yes, there is a way to stop them. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 04 octobre 2012 - 03:25 .

[GimmeDaGun]

XqctaX wrote...

put it this way.

it was hinted at in all trailers that we would win the war by fighting after gathering allies.

too win the WAR and overcome the impossible by working and fighting together.

that was also the only real main theme of mass effect.
to gather allies/cooperate and win an inpossible war/fight no matter the odds.

To you it might have been the main theme of Mass Effect. There are several other significant themes in there, the one you mention is one of them, and is actually portrayed pretty well in ME3.

It's funny: what you've just written does not contradict in any level with what we got in ME3. It's a fight against impossible odds and victory through unity. 

[GimmeDaGun]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I actually did think we would be beating them conventionally. Up until 3, we've always been able to pull off the impossible.

This so much.  From the way the devs talked about going around "gathering allies" I was expecting DAO in space.  Get all the races behind you, go fight a climatic battle, have a show down with Harbinger, win and go home.  The crucible itself, while kinda dumb was alright to include.  Having a super weapon is fine, it only fell apart when the catalyst showed up.

And what you can do in ME3 is nothing but pulling off the impossible: curing the genophage, make a truce between the geth and the quarians (giving back their homeworld), uniting the galaxy against the reapers, collecting intel and assets for a secret project which aims to stop the reapers, you find the ancient reaper race and survive facing them, you manage to destroy Cerberus, the syndicate which had almost as much political pull, intelligence and resources as the Alliance... and in the end you manage to stop the reapers. 

The Catalyst is the f.ing reaper overmind, reaper super computer, their commom conscious and ideas, the idea behind them, their creator. It's a revelation, not a deus ex machina as so many put it here (they should check out what a deus ex machina is). It's darkest and most well kept secret of the galaxy, and you face it. I just don't get it why people hate it so much. 

Maybe it's just that most people who are against the ending want a victorious happy ending with a huge party and all and love interests all over the place. I don't know... to me Mass Effect was never about these love stories and gimmick hero flick cliches (the trilogy has too many of them already). 

[AlanC9]

I never quite understood how a conventional victory was going to play out. What's Shepard supposed to contribute?

[FOX216BC]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

 The lauch trailer did a good job at fooling me.




www.youtube.com/watch

Trailers are for hyping up people but they try not to give too much away about the story: that would be spoiling it. Trailers are usually spoiler heavy enough. The ones for ME3 didn't fool anyone intentionally. The particular scene which is shown in the trailer is in the game, and yes there's a final push against the reapers and yes, there is a way to stop them. 

 

 Admiral Hackett  "Build alliances, gather everything and everybody you can"

[clarkusdarkus]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I actually did think we would be beating them conventionally. Up until 3, we've always been able to pull off the impossible.

This so much.  From the way the devs talked about going around "gathering allies" I was expecting DAO in space.  Get all the races behind you, go fight a climatic battle, have a show down with Harbinger, win and go home.  The crucible itself, while kinda dumb was alright to include.  Having a super weapon is fine, it only fell apart when the catalyst showed up.

Now that would be boring to me as hell... but in the end it comes down to one's pesonal preferences and taste. I personally would have found a conventional victory and star warsesque ending ridiculous and story breaking. 

But yet listening to a new character introduced 15mins from the end isnt story breaking:bandit:

[ph34r-X]

The other cycles started with an immediate attack on the citadel and udder chaos. This cycle atleast showed more unification to which conventional victory would be more feasible.

[ph34r-X]

I was fine with the crucible. Except for the catalyst too. The crucible could have done something else.

[Almostfaceman]

nopantsisabela wrote...

I just got on BSN for the first time in months and happened to see some thread debating if conventional victory should have been possible or not. This reminded me of one reason that I was so confused by the ME3 ending: was anyone else expecting the whole theme of cooperation to be the ultimate reason why "this time" the Reapers could be beaten? 

In my opinion, the "if we work together, we can do anything!" theme was a pretty heavy one all throughout ME1 and 2 and then during the Thessia mission in ME3 the VI pretty much tells you that this cycle's sentient races are much more unified and therin might lie your salvation.

I totally expected this to be the reason for your victory over the Reapers, and it seemed really fitting. In order for conventional victory to be possible, this cycle would have to have something that other cycles didn't, and ultimately, the reason for this cycle being so unified is Shepard (who's been the main instigator of all the cooperative activity between the different races).

Just curious if anyone else had felt similarly about this.

Yes, I felt similiarly. 

[GimmeDaGun]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I actually did think we would be beating them conventionally. Up until 3, we've always been able to pull off the impossible.

This so much.  From the way the devs talked about going around "gathering allies" I was expecting DAO in space.  Get all the races behind you, go fight a climatic battle, have a show down with Harbinger, win and go home.  The crucible itself, while kinda dumb was alright to include.  Having a super weapon is fine, it only fell apart when the catalyst showed up.

Now that would be boring to me as hell... but in the end it comes down to one's pesonal preferences and taste. I personally would have found a conventional victory and star warsesque ending ridiculous and story breaking. 

But yet listening to a new character introduced 15mins from the end isnt story breaking:bandit:

No new character: a revelation. You face the idea, core program, creating intelligence, overmind etc. of the reapers. How is that story breaking? This whole trilogy marks the reapers as the primary antagonist and threat. 

[GimmeDaGun]

FOX216BC wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

 The lauch trailer did a good job at fooling me.




www.youtube.com/watch

Trailers are for hyping up people but they try not to give too much away about the story: that would be spoiling it. Trailers are usually spoiler heavy enough. The ones for ME3 didn't fool anyone intentionally. The particular scene which is shown in the trailer is in the game, and yes there's a final push against the reapers and yes, there is a way to stop them. 

 

 Admiral Hackett  "Build alliances, gather everything and everybody you can"

And yeah, you do that in ME3. So?

[sharkboy421]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

I actually did think we would be beating them conventionally. Up until 3, we've always been able to pull off the impossible.

This so much.  From the way the devs talked about going around "gathering allies" I was expecting DAO in space.  Get all the races behind you, go fight a climatic battle, have a show down with Harbinger, win and go home.  The crucible itself, while kinda dumb was alright to include.  Having a super weapon is fine, it only fell apart when the catalyst showed up.

And what you can do in ME3 is nothing but pulling off the impossible: curing the genophage, make a truce between the geth and the quarians (giving back their homeworld), uniting the galaxy against the reapers, collecting intel and assets for a secret project which aims to stop the reapers, you find the ancient reaper race and survive facing them, you manage to destroy Cerberus, the syndicate which had almost as much political pull, intelligence and resources as the Alliance... and in the end you manage to stop the reapers. 

The Catalyst is the f.ing reaper overmind, reaper super computer, their commom conscious and ideas, the idea behind them, their creator. It's a revelation, not a deus ex machina as so many put it here (they should check out what a deus ex machina is). It's darkest and most well kept secret of the galaxy, and you face it. I just don't get it why people hate it so much. 

Maybe it's just that most people who are against the ending want a victorious happy ending with a huge party and all and love interests all over the place. I don't know... to me Mass Effect was never about these love stories and gimmick hero flick cliches (the trilogy has too many of them already). 

Fair enough we do stop the reapers.  But I still have several issues with the catalyst. 

Frankly I'm angry he exists.  In 1 and 2 the reapers were these strange, Lovecraftian horrors who wanted to harvest all intelligent life in the galaxy.  They were intelligent, powerful and had their own agenda.  Never once did I think there was some overmind controlling them.  Sure Harbinger was their leader, but that is not the same thing as an overmind.  And for such an important character, it is horrendous writing on Bioware's part to just introduce the catalyst with 10 minutes left and have no foreshadowing.

Also, the purpose of the catalyst and the reapers again seems to come out of no where.  They harvest organics so they won't be destroyed by sythentics because there will always be conflict.  Perhaps this is true but the only example we have of this are the geth and quarians.  And ME3 goes to great lengths to show us that geth were not the aggressors.  Indeed the geth seem quite open to peace if the quarians would be open to it as well.  While Javik does mention the metacon war, we know nothing about it and cannot use it as evidence one way or the other.  So the arguement that there will always be conflict is very shakey as the major in game evidence we suggests otherwise.

[RebelTitan428]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

 The lauch trailer did a good job at fooling me.




www.youtube.com/watch

Trailers are for hyping up people but they try not to give too much away about the story: that would be spoiling it. Trailers are usually spoiler heavy enough. The ones for ME3 didn't fool anyone intentionally. The particular scene which is shown in the trailer is in the game, and yes there's a final push against the reapers and yes, there is a way to stop them. 

 

 Admiral Hackett  "Build alliances, gather everything and everybody you can"

And yeah, you do that in ME3. So?

so that they can build a magic space gun that makes no sense.

[dreman9999]

nopantsisabela wrote...

I just got on BSN for the first time in months and happened to see some thread debating if conventional victory should have been possible or not. This reminded me of one reason that I was so confused by the ME3 ending: was anyone else expecting the whole theme of cooperation to be the ultimate reason why "this time" the Reapers could be beaten? 

In my opinion, the "if we work together, we can do anything!" theme was a pretty heavy one all throughout ME1 and 2 and then during the Thessia mission in ME3 the VI pretty much tells you that this cycle's sentient races are much more unified and therin might lie your salvation.

I totally expected this to be the reason for your victory over the Reapers, and it seemed really fitting. In order for conventional victory to be possible, this cycle would have to have something that other cycles didn't, and ultimately, the reason for this cycle being so unified is Shepard (who's been the main instigator of all the cooperative activity between the different races).

Just curious if anyone else had felt similarly about this.

That does not mean convetional victory is possible. That just means we can stop the reaper, not do it anyway we want.

[dreman9999]

RebelTitan428 wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

FOX216BC wrote...

 The lauch trailer did a good job at fooling me.




www.youtube.com/watch

Trailers are for hyping up people but they try not to give too much away about the story: that would be spoiling it. Trailers are usually spoiler heavy enough. The ones for ME3 didn't fool anyone intentionally. The particular scene which is shown in the trailer is in the game, and yes there's a final push against the reapers and yes, there is a way to stop them. 

 

 Admiral Hackett  "Build alliances, gather everything and everybody you can"

And yeah, you do that in ME3. So?

so that they can build a magic space gun that makes no sense.

The destory option and control option makes sense.

[nopantsisabela]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

And what you can do in ME3 is nothing but pulling off the impossible: curing the genophage, make a truce between the geth and the quarians (giving back their homeworld), uniting the galaxy against the reapers, collecting intel and assets for a secret project which aims to stop the reapers, you find the ancient reaper race and survive facing them, you manage to destroy Cerberus, the syndicate which had almost as much political pull, intelligence and resources as the Alliance... and in the end you manage to stop the reapers. 

The Catalyst is the f.ing reaper overmind, reaper super computer, their commom conscious and ideas, the idea behind them, their creator. It's a revelation, not a deus ex machina as so many put it here (they should check out what a deus ex machina is). It's darkest and most well kept secret of the galaxy, and you face it. I just don't get it why people hate it so much. 

Maybe it's just that most people who are against the ending want a victorious happy ending with a huge party and all and love interests all over the place. I don't know... to me Mass Effect was never about these love stories and gimmick hero flick cliches (the trilogy has too many of them already). 

I'm confused... how is the Catalyst not a deus ex machina?? It's the exact definition.

Also, I'm sick of hearing the retort that everyone who dislikes the ending is just a poor sap that can't handle an angsty story. I love my Shepard, but I'd rather she'd just died a good death than have to be degraded into securing a victory through picking some random option offered by an enemy who just suddenly decides he's not going to straight up kill you after all. In fact, I think I'd rather the game just ended with the Reapers winning, and you seeing scenes of the next cycle beginning to mature. To me, the Catalyst is the cop-out, written in to save the day and give us all a victory without needing to do any of the intellectual legwork to actually think out a properly constructed conclusion.

I think most of us "complainers" are just honest to God confused about where the story ran off to, not sad 'cause we didn't get an ending where we could make out with an LI on top of a defeated Reaper and then have a giant dance party.

Modifié par nopantsisabela, 05 octobre 2012 - 03:31 .

[nopantsisabela]

dreman9999 wrote...

nopantsisabela wrote...

*Snip OP*

That does not mean convetional victory is possible. That just means we can stop the reaper, not do it anyway we want.

I honestly have no idea what you meant here. Would you like to explain?

[AlanC9]

nopantsisabela wrote...
I'm confused... how is the Catalyst not a deus ex machina?? It's the exact definition.

Not really. A deus ex machina solves an insoluble problem. The Catalyst makes a problem that appears to be already solved worse. Until he shows up the Crucible appears to be (hopefully) a Reaper Off Switch (although Bio foreshadowed the hell out of it not being that simple). Unless Shepard really likes Control or Synthesis, the Catalyst isn't solving anything.

More like a Diabolus ex Machina.

In fact, I think I'd rather the game just ended with the Reapers winning, and you seeing scenes of the next cycle beginning to mature.

Reapers winning? You've got it.

[Ratimir]

dreman9999 wrote...

The destory option and control option makes sense.

You know normally dreman's constant typos are irritating, but I think he's come up with something good here:

Destory: v. To conclude a narrative in such a way that the entire story is ruined. eg "Mac and Casey decided to destory Mass Effect".

[WhiteKnyght]

magnetite wrote...

I don't see how conventional victory would work either.

Exactly. You need the Crucible just to stand a chance.

Even if
the fleets had won the battle for Earth, within five minutes a thousand
Reapers from other systems would pour into Sol and hit them while they were weak.

And then you'd have sacrificed every ounce of military strength in the galaxy on one battle. Leaving everybody defenseless.

___________

What I was expecting with ME3. I was expecting the Reapers to be much worse than what they are. Whole planets and fleets to be destroyed within minutes. And spend the entire game running and barely surviving by the skin of your teeth, looking for a way to win(hence why the Crucible is believable to me.)

But it was pleasantly surprising to see how well we could fight against them. Even if it wasn't enough.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 05 octobre 2012 - 07:23 .